BioWare Investigating HUD Changes for Mass Effect 3

ChienAboyeur said:

I passed down facts. All you did so far is rejecting that the devs set up an objective and the possibility of assessing whether or not the objective was met (success) or not (failure)
You refered to any kind of success which is what I underlined earlier by defining other objectives and assess success/failure.

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You haven't passed down a single fact, and I haven't rejected any objective. I've asked for you to provide proof of your claim - and you've failed to do it.

Sophistry. You gave no element that could characterize Dirty dozen. You gave your opinion on the quality of the movie.

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They're both subjective - which was the point.

Following your sophistry, the devs' attempt to extract a game play direction from the movie Dirty Dozen is a pipe dream as in the end, it is all a matter of subjectivity as people can not characterize the movie other than through their subjectivity. There are no dominant features, no key elements that could make the movie distinct from another as it is all a matter of opinion.

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Of course there are ways to differentiate movies, but opinions about the weight of these will invariably differ.

Dirty Dozen is characterized by a high lethality rate mission, earning it the name of suicide mission.

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That's one characteristic, certainly - but by no means the only one.

Success/failure is not a matter of opinion.

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Of course it's a matter of opinion.

So now if Bioware set up the objective of delivering a suicide mission, assessing whether or not Bioware manage to meet their objective would only be the reflection of Bioware's opinion on what Bioware thinks the game to be a success. Convoluted. In all cases, it does not know the fact whether or not Bioware succeeding in delivering on their effort or not.

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If that was the only objective in terms of what would be required for success, and if the end result can't be perceived as a suicide mission - then sure.

But that's not at all the case with Mass Effect 2.

Unless you can, finally, provide a link where Bioware says something to the effect of:

"We want Mass Effect 2 to be just like Dirty Dozen, or to give people the very same sensation when playing it. If we don't provide that sensation to everyone, the game will be considered a failure by us."

Not something like:

"We'd love for Mass Effect 2 to be something like Dirty Dozen, and we hope people will get a similar vibe from it."

On the topic, I have no prerequisite for the game other than what Bioware set up for the game: the main attraction in the game is to play a dirty dozen suicide mission. It is all about to know whether or not the game delivers.

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Link to where Bioware claims this is a main attraction, please?

If you don't provide it in your next post - I'm going to have to assume you're a liar and I don't exchange with liars.

How? I stated how ME 2 fails to deliver a dirty dozen like suicide mission.
So please tell how ME2 succeeds in delivering a dirty dozen like suicide mission.

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Why would I? It's not relevant.

What claim are you talking about?

"We want Mass Effect 2 to be just like Dirty Dozen, or to give people the very same sensation when playing it. If we don't provide that sensation to everyone, the game will be considered a failure by us."

Not something like:

"We'd love for Mass Effect 2 to be something like Dirty Dozen, and we hope people will get a similar vibe from it."

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It can not be. It is impossible for a game to realize an identity with a movie. You are just asking for an impossiblity.
Again, a rejection of setting objectives and assessing success/failure.
And they do not need to state that if they do not meet the objectives they set for themselves, they fail.
The best that anyone can achieve while taking such a path is to extract essential characteristics of a work and replicate them onto another work.

It is relevant. You stated that ME 2 delivers a dirty dozen like suicide mission. Please tell how.

Casting the objectives can be subjective. Assessing whether they are met or not is not.

Provide a link where Bioware says what you claim they're saying, and we can continue.

Otherwise, debate over - as I have no time for imagined goals or liars - whichever the case may be.

What claim?

What you require is

"We want Mass Effect 2 to be just like Dirty Dozen, or to give people the very same sensation when playing it."

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is an impossibility. No developper would engage in such endeavour as it is not possible.

From the goal of developping a game intended to deliver a dirty dozen like experience, you jumped to the goal of delivering a perfect copy of Dirty Dozen and, apparently, made it my claim.

At this point, you are the one fabricating goals and/or lying.

By the way, this should not exempt you of providing how. With the standard you set up yourself, it will be funny to see if you succeed in proving your point.

ChienAboyeur said:

Dirty Dozen is characterized by a high lethality rate mission, earning it the name of suicide mission.

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No it isn't. It's characterized by how even hardened criminals can become heroes … or how even complete strangers can set aside their differences and fight for a common goal … or how the US army use prisoners as cannon fodder … or how even American scum can beat a bunch of Nazi pig dogs …

There are many OPINIONS of what characterizes The Dirty Dozen.

IMDB's plotline goes as follows:

A Major with an attitude problem and a history of getting things done is told to interview military prisoners with death sentences or long terms for a dangerous mission; To parachute behind enemy lines and cause havoc for the German Generals at a rest house on the eve of D-Day

Well, I'll be a monkey's butt. Not a single mention of how few makes it out alive. Strange that, how opinions differ …

ChienAboyeur said:

It is impossible for a game to realize an identity with a movie. You are just asking for an impossiblity.

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I'm sorry. I'm getting confused now. You base your ENTIRE argument on ME2 failing because it doesn't "feel" like YOUR interpretation of The Diry Dozen and when asked to provide any kind of reference someone even remotely related to Bioware who have at some point claimed that ME2 was supposed to deliver said "feeling" you say that such a reference is impossible to provide … is this some early April's Fool joke or are you actually unable to see how utterly ludicrous you line of argumentation is?

Now please, do us all a favour and learn the difference between opinion and fact.

Reading the thread might help. Already answered.
Dirty dozen have of course several characteristics. But there are other movies recruiting from fringe elements and turning them into heroes.

Your quote makes no mention either of the suicide mission the movie includes. As Bioware put an emphasis on the suicide mission side of their own game, they might have been interested in Dirty dozen suicide mission as well.
And by the way, a summary (incomplete at) of a plotline is not a list of characteristic features.



If you have read the thread, then you should have been confused with it before in that:

"We want Mass Effect 2 to be just like Dirty Dozen, or to give people the very same sensation when playing it. If we don't provide that sensation to everyone, the game will be considered a failure by us."

Not something like:

"We'd love for Mass Effect 2 to be something like Dirty Dozen, and we hope people will get a similar vibe from it."

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Once this is digested…

And again, you're avoiding backing up your claim...

Forget it. This is a waste of time.

What claim?

Chronologically, identity and similitude was not introduced by me. Yet, my reaction to it got you irking. Backing the claim? Just read the thread is enough.

What is a dirty dozen, acually ?

A bunch of despized and despizable characters who managed to redeem themselves by learning the price of sacrifice.

ChienAboyeur said:

ME 2's devs set out the objectives for ME2. The game failing to meet the objectives defines failure. Failure/success is not an opinion, but a comparison of a state to previously announced objectives.

The game was told to provide a suicide mission experience, dirty dozen like. Dirty dozen ends with two survivors, if I remember well. There is the preparation to the mission and after that, the slaughter.

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THAT claim.

The game was told to provide a suicide mission experience, dirty dozen like.

Yep. If you understood this as meaning matching exactly the dirty dozen suicide mission experience, then it did not mean that. Like so far as I know does not mean forcefully identical to. It might mean similar to.

The son looks like the father. Does it mean the son looks identical to the father? Maybe, after all.

The thing you have to remember about speaking on a public forum like this, is that denial is not quite as effective as when you're just lying to yourself.

People are actually reading what you're saying, and endlessly ignoring the request for proof of the claim you've been making - is only making you look increasingly ridiculous.

I don't particularly mind you looking ridiculous, but I think it's fair to point it out - nonetheless.

Now now everyone take a deep breathe and relax. As I said before everyone has there own opinions.

Watching a film is rather different than playing a game.

Gathering the squad, getting it to shape and upgrading the ship was pretty much what majority of the game was about and it was not ignored in the last mission.
The last mission has given solid weight to player´s previous actions and for most of its duration it was presented well.
Maybe there should´ve been harsher time conditions which would not allow player to do all loyalty missions, odds in the last mission should´ve been more xxxtreme etc, but in principle I think the game succeeded.
It´s one of the few games where just rushing through its main, non-optional segments bears some consequences.

Not all "suicide missions" have to be

especially if you have one more chapter to tell.

Comedy gold. Thank you gentlemen, for your heroic verbal acrobatics. I think that almost takes the cake for the most pointless, substance starved excuse for a debate I have ever seen on the Watch. But at least it was entertaining!

DoctorNarrative said:

I agree.

I think if anything makes Mass Effect 2 an RPG it is the different classes and abilities, i.e. you pick a role (sniper, engineer, etc.). That's sort of the same thing that makes Diablo 2 an RPG on some level, picking a class and enhancing its abilities.

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Team Fortress 2 has Snipers, Engineers, Heavy Weapons Dudes, Medics, etc... It is not an RPG of any sort. That does not make an RPG, and in fact has become increasingly an integral part of FPS games of late. Which also is partially the reason why I only play the original Call of Duty (though a relatively small part, the main being the viruses and utter lack of features such as custom maps and actual multiplayer (with real servers, 32v32, not 8v8 running off another player's rig).

azraelck said:

Team Fortress 2 has Snipers, Engineers, Heavy Weapons Dudes, Medics, etc… It is not an RPG of any sort. That does not make an RPG, and in fact has become increasingly an integral part of FPS games of late. Which also is partially the reason why I only play the original Call of Duty (though a relatively small part, the main being the viruses and utter lack of features such as custom maps and actual multiplayer (with real servers, 32v32, not 8v8 running off another player's rig).

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I didn't go back and read it but I'm pretty sure the rest of my post made it clear I don't consider ME2 an RPG. I am just saying the definition of RPG is different for some people, and to some picking a class and playing one "role" as opposed to another is enoguh to make a game an RPG.

azraelck said:

Team Fortress 2 has Snipers, Engineers, Heavy Weapons Dudes, Medics, etc… It is not an RPG of any sort.

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Same with Star Wars Battlefront