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December 13th, 2008, 18:06
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
What's wrong with greed?

It's a part of human nature you can either like or dislike (or be indifferent) - and I dislike it.

I don't use the term wrong (or right) about anything.

No one is making demands. I'm stating my opinion, nothing more.

What's "wrong" about that?
Waaaaah, they're making billions already, they're meeting their expenses just fiiine, why don't they let people play for freeee as an act of charity and non-greed?

It's called capitalism. I suggest you cope with the concept.
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December 13th, 2008, 18:51
@Yeesh
There's already a free service to let you change the look of your character. This new service is for the big changes people very rarely make (sex change, new face, name).

Games like LotrO, Age of Conan, Warhammer and so on don't have anything similar, free or paid, so I certainly wouldn't say something like this is "expected" in an MMO market. It's an optional service that very few MMOs have at all - if you don't like it, don't use it. I have no intention of using it myself.
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December 13th, 2008, 19:27
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
Games like LotrO, Age of Conan, Warhammer and so on don't have anything similar, free or paid, so I certainly wouldn't say something like this is "expected" in an MMO market.
SWG, several years before WoW, had character re-customization. It was free and in-game. You could change anything save race, sex, and name.

Once again, I fail to see why WoW and Blizzard have so many customers.

An average game, that has nothing innovative, extremely lackluster and repetitive gameplay, ever-imbalanced classes, severely flawed high-end PvP combat mechanisms (2 hours+ for a single arena fight?), ugly character models, light roleplay, light story…

And despite all that, millions of idiots are willing to pay every month for the privilege of playing it… and I am one of them
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December 13th, 2008, 19:53
Originally Posted by Essaliad View Post
Waaaaah, they're making billions already, they're meeting their expenses just fiiine, why don't they let people play for freeee as an act of charity and non-greed?

It's called capitalism. I suggest you cope with the concept.
No, it's called greed.

You're confusing concepts. Capitalism is an economic system that faciliates greed, but it's not greed in itself.

I suggest you cope with the concept of distinction.
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December 13th, 2008, 20:02
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
They certainly aren't trying to hide their greed.
If Michael Jackson is a subscriber, they have it made!

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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December 13th, 2008, 20:22
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
No, it's called greed.

You're confusing concepts. Capitalism is an economic system that faciliates greed, but it's not greed in itself.

I suggest you cope with the concept of distinction.
Whining that this is greedy is like whining that they don't make expansion packs free. Greedy would be offering players actual in-game advantages—access to useful items (as opposed to stupid things like vanity pets and mounts), access to special areas, whatever—for extra fees. This does… what? Nothing. I doubt very many WoW players give a flying damn; at most it'll let people escape bad reputation they've developed on their server, but that can already be dealt with by a server transfer.
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December 13th, 2008, 20:55
Whining that this is greedy is like whining that they don't make expansion packs free.
Nobody's whining. Everyone knows that companies are in this for the money. But when a company goes above and beyond to milk more money out of folks, we call it greed. We think of it as a negative on the company's balance sheet of goodwill.

When a company does somthing cool like give away features, we say nice things about them to show our appreciation. In fact, we think good thoughts about that company and respect it for giving more value to its players. Do you agree that we do that, and rightly so? I'll assume you do.

Well, you seem to think that when a company does the opposite, i.e. charges money just because they can, we shouldn't call them out for it. You seem to think we should praise game companies for giving superior value, but hold our tongues when they milk extra money out of players. Can you explain why?

Speaking of expansion packs for free, WoW has introduced TONS of new content absolutely for free. That's one of the reasons Blizzard is so well-respected and even beloved: free stuff. If they were to switch to an EQ2 model (5 expansions TO BUY in the same timeframe as WoW's 2), then ActiBlizz would get less respect for giving gamers free stuff. We wouldn't blow up their headquarters or anything, but we'd be justified in saying that ActiBlizz is no longer the player-friendly and righteous company that Blizzard was.

Blizzard has a beloved space in many gamers' hearts, and much of that is for doing things like running battle.net for free all this time. If they stop that sort of sweetness, you think we shouldn't call them on it? Sorry, we will.
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December 13th, 2008, 21:33
Honestly, paying for purely cosmetic changes doesn't bother me in the slightest (yes, a name change is a different matter, but you should've thought about that before, huh?). I'm sure Blizzard has thought this through and counts on having enough customers at 15$ (remember, stuff is worth whatever someone else is willing to pay for it!).

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December 13th, 2008, 22:07
Originally Posted by Essaliad View Post
Whining that this is greedy is like whining that they don't make expansion packs free. Greedy would be offering players actual in-game advantages—access to useful items (as opposed to stupid things like vanity pets and mounts), access to special areas, whatever—for extra fees. This does… what? Nothing. I doubt very many WoW players give a flying damn; at most it'll let people escape bad reputation they've developed on their server, but that can already be dealt with by a server transfer.
You seem to be confused in general.

First of all, I don't care personally since I don't play the game.

Secondly, I call it greed because that's what it is. It's not related to whining, as that would be a complaint. That's another distinction you'd benefit from appreciating.

I might complain about it if I was somehow affected, or if I felt compelled to pay for this service for some reason.

I suspect you must picture little children crying in your mind for this to match your perception of people who don't actively support greed? If you must, then by all means continue to do so. It won't do much to convince me that this isn't just what it looks like.

The reason it is greed is directly related to the effort required to implement these changes in a database. It's the same reason I would be greedy if I charged 15$ for telling you what time it is. That's the kind of effort we're talking about. A normal person would simply tell you the time and be done with it.

Someone could come along and call me greedy for charging 15$, but according to your logic, no one is forced to ask me for the time - so it's not greed. Knowing the time is just a convenience and I'm merely being a smart capitalist for charging, right?
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December 13th, 2008, 22:15
Extremly stupid idea… I seriously wonder when exactly they officially begin to offer cyb0r for 0.99$ per minute…

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December 13th, 2008, 22:50
Originally Posted by Yeesh View Post
a lot of text
I don't consider exploiting stupidity greedy. People who pay for this customization either have a lot of cash to spare, or are deeply stupid. Then again, I have no emotional attachment to Blizzard one way or another beyond liking the fact that they put out relatively polished products. Outside of that, I offer no praise, especially given that they constantly retard class balance and balance PVE around PVP or vice versa.
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December 13th, 2008, 23:07
Originally Posted by Essaliad View Post
I don't consider exploiting stupidity greedy. People who pay for this customization either have a lot of cash to spare, or are deeply stupid. Then again, I have no emotional attachment to Blizzard one way or another beyond liking the fact that they put out relatively polished products. Outside of that, I offer no praise, especially given that they constantly retard class balance and balance PVE around PVP or vice versa.
I think your point of view is well established.

But you offer no logical argument for why charging for something that requires basically no effort is not greedy - given the financial situation with Blizzard. If they needed the money, one could at least make a case for them exploiting their audience.

You now call it exploiting stupidity as if that in itself was a reasonable course of action, which I find a disturbing yet probably common perception in a capitalistic mind.

Also, you offer a view where people paying for this service must be deeply stupid, unless they have a lot of money, which is a very interesting stance.

From what little I know of your opinions, I must admit I find very little to like about them.

But that's hardly relevant, as I assume we're having a discussion. Sadly, in that regard your arguments don't hold water and mostly seem based off of your own values - which would seem to be similar to those held by the Blizzard of today. That said, I suspect Blizzard - greedy as they have become - could offer a more sensible reasoning for their price than what you have come up with here. At least, I don't think it would be a wise PR move to admit they're "exploiting stupidity".
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December 14th, 2008, 00:58
People who pay for this customization either have a lot of cash to spare, or are deeply stupid.
People who want to customize their character are deeply stupid? That's an odd stance to take on an RPG site like this one. What else do you think is stupid? Quests? Stats? Experience points?
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December 14th, 2008, 11:13
Originally Posted by Yeesh View Post
People who want to customize their character are deeply stupid? That's an odd stance to take on an RPG site like this one. What else do you think is stupid? Quests? Stats? Experience points?
While I don't think that it is stupid, I think that it shows how far away MMORPGs are nowadays from their RPG roots. During my time in Everquest I simply loved the feeling that I did not only know the people on my server - I also knew their characters. I saw them from Miles away and knew, "hey that's Jadefox, the bard and over there that's Meenah, the druid". I think I can say that after a few years I really knew most people on the server… and they knew me.
That already changed with WoW since everyone seems to have 10 alts. Now they're introducing the possibility of a gender change. In my opinion things such as these greatly harm the atmosphere and community of a game.
I know a lot of rpg players who constantly complain about MMOs not giving you the possibility to become something special. And that's true - if you're an adventurer among thousand others it's pretty hard to become a hero. What you can do however is to become a known personality… you can make a name for yourself. However, if you're constantly switiching between personalities that's getting extremly difficult.

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Last edited by Ionstormsucks; December 14th, 2008 at 12:42.
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December 14th, 2008, 11:30
I think it's safe to say that Blizzard aren't pushing the roleplaying aspects of their roleplaying game. But then, they never did - and Diablo was another example of a good game that didn't HAVE to be a traditional RPG to work.

It's unfortunate that developers - being so concerned with making huge hits, instead of merely hits - are obsessed with outdoing WoW or dethroning it. Because that's what will spread the ideas of Blizzard, instead of allowing them to be what they are - an alternative approach to RPGs.

I personally don't mind that WoW is the fastfood of MMOs. I don't see it as a betrayal or anything like that, it's just not my preference. That said, I've played WoW a lot in the past, and I enjoyed it for what it was. But even though I don't like the direction it has taken, and that I find it severely lacking in many areas, I won't forget the fun I've had.

I can only hope that some developer will come out with something less fastfood-ish and get a hit on their hands. It's not likely, though, as we all know that fastfood is popular because it's, well, fast - as in accessible, and the big bucks are to be made in that way.

The market has spoken and it wants popcorn blockbusters - not cerebral challenges or mature settings. Someone will have to accept NOT being a big hit and not have a problem with that - before we see an MMO more in line with our tastes here. Perhaps Darkfall?
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December 14th, 2008, 14:37
Originally Posted by Yeesh View Post
People who want to customize their character are deeply stupid? That's an odd stance to take on an RPG site like this one. What else do you think is stupid? Quests? Stats? Experience points?
That's an odd leap of illogic, especially since many RPGs have no cosmetic customization whatsoever. Do you think it is an integral component of RPGs? Does that make the Witcher and PS:T non-RPGs—perhaps Diablo and WoW are more "RPGish" than PS:T and Witcher, given that both of these offer more customization options (why, they even offer a greater range of classes)?

Try again.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I think your point of view is well established.

But you offer no logical argument for why charging for something that requires basically no effort is not greedy - given the financial situation with Blizzard. If they needed the money, one could at least make a case for them exploiting their audience.
What financial situation is that? We of course assume that Blizzard employees drive state-of-the-art cars and have nubile young beauties at their beck and call while gaming on diamond-studded monitors, but you do realize the world is suffering from an economic recession, right? A lot of giant corporations are laying off workers, and simple logic suggests to me that Activision is not immune. I've no idea: they may very well exist in this strange rainbow-colored vacuum you apparently imagine them to be, but in reality I suspect they must've suffered losses of revenue to some extent or another.

That said, I suspect Blizzard - greedy as they have become - could offer a more sensible reasoning for their price than what you have come up with here. At least, I don't think it would be a wise PR move to admit they're "exploiting stupidity".
Er… duh?
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December 14th, 2008, 17:07
What financial situation is that? We of course assume that Blizzard employees drive state-of-the-art cars and have nubile young beauties at their beck and call while gaming on diamond-studded monitors, but you do realize the world is suffering from an economic recession, right? A lot of giant corporations are laying off workers, and simple logic suggests to me that Activision is not immune. I've no idea: they may very well exist in this strange rainbow-colored vacuum you apparently imagine them to be, but in reality I suspect they must've suffered losses of revenue to some extent or another.
I hope you're joking. I know it's easier to present my point of view as that of an imbecile who thinks in black and white - and the strawman approach is ever popular - but I don't recall anyone claiming that they're all rich.

But, if you insist on this fantasy of the financial recession being responsible for charging 15$ for no effort - then I don't think we can avoid wasting time.

It's too far removed from reality to be of interest to me.
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December 15th, 2008, 06:31
That's an odd leap of illogic, especially since many RPGs have no cosmetic customization whatsoever. Do you think it is an integral component of RPGs?
Not odd at all. In an RPG online or off, character customization or a lack thereof is going to be mentioned by any reviewer. Is it integral? I don't think so, but some here would argue it is. If not integral, character customization is nontheless a hallmark of the genre, and many people enjoy the option of customizing their character and miss that option when it's absent. You're hurting their feelings by calling them stupid.

And those othe three I mentioned? I don't think any one of them by itself is integral to an RPG. They are hallmarks, both of the genre and of the sorts of game mechanics underlying an RPG which ARE integral, but I don't think there's the huge leap of logic you're seeing to go from character customization to experience points. Both would be listed as a feature of most RPGs.
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