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Default Bethesda Softworks - ZeniMax Acquires id Software!

July 3rd, 2009, 01:21
No, I meant my comment about a poll. ESF-ers would descend in droves to support the game and who knows who would turn up to denigrate the game.

Although, given how many times I saw Codexers trolling the ESF for a ban, I wouldn't rule anything out.

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July 3rd, 2009, 01:31
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
No, I meant my comment about a poll. ESF-ers would descend in droves to support the game and who knows who would turn up to denigrate the game.
Bah, it's the reason I don't like polls much anyway, but certainly not on topics like these. It's a matter of who can drum up enough trollvoters, not so much a matter of honest opinionating.

It is what it is.
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July 3rd, 2009, 02:51
Thank God they don't make boats the way they make PC games. Or cars. Or planes (or anything anything else where the user's life depends on the product actually working the way it's supposed to work).

But PC games are difficult to make, right? And those other things aren't. So the bar gets set much lower for PC games. Boats only have to float; cars only have to roll around, and planes only have to fly….

OK, wait a minute! Flying — that's difficult too, isn't it? So why aren't planes crashing left and right like PC games? I'll tell you why, because if they were, that would be taken very seriously. And PC game customers definitely aren't ones anyone takes very seriously.

I think if we took ourselves more seriously and demanded to be taken more seriously, there'd be far fewer applications crashing. But we don't. So it is what it is…and what it is is very convenient for PC game makers.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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July 3rd, 2009, 03:58
well, maybe in another 40 years when we all are a little older and start falling over dead from heart attacks when Fallout 7 is released a buggy mess of anime drama w/ puzzle elements gameplay, people will start taking us seriously.

Until people start dying tho, it's going to be tough
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July 3rd, 2009, 04:24
It's ok to release inferior products as long as nobody dies from it?

I don't think that's really how capitalism is supposed to work. Samhain.
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July 3rd, 2009, 07:01
Originally Posted by Squeek View Post
Thank God they don't make boats the way they make PC games. Or cars. Or planes (or anything anything else where the user's life depends on the product actually working the way it's supposed to work).
But they do. I had to take my new car (well, when it was new) back for warranty repairs several times. I've had cars with well-known generic problems ("the engine block always leaks oil in this model") and so on. You just see it as a different issue, for some reason.

When I used to be an electronics buyer for one of Australia's largest retailers, I'd agree to a failure rate. For example, we might agree a 2% major, 4% minor failure rate was perfectly acceptable for the LCD TV. If we sold a million PCs, we knew 40,000 would have something dodgy and 20,000 would outright fail or similar.

And then there are the harder-to-quantify issues. You don't get a good signal on your new TV? Maybe the manufacturer knows full well the tuner isn't as sensitive as perhaps it should be.

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July 3rd, 2009, 12:15
Originally Posted by Moriendor View Post
Remember how enemies would pick up weapons of slain peers if their own weapon broke? That single feature made the AI more impressive than in 99% of all other RPGs where the AI only knows 'attack' and 'flee if health is low' at the most.
From that point of view, even Stonekeep was far ahead of its time, because it included Shargas who would run to the nearest stash of healing potions when their health was low - and use them !

I remember that I've encountered this at least once, and all I had to do was follow this guy - in fact I did it because I feared he would drink everything away before my own character could reach it …
But I guess this was a mix between player-knowledge and character-knowledge …

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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July 3rd, 2009, 23:17
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
It's ok to release inferior products as long as nobody dies from it?

I don't think that's really how capitalism is supposed to work. Samhain.
..and you even caught on how totally serious I was, tell ya - if youre ever in San Diego i owe ya a cappuchino, Bro
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July 4th, 2009, 18:16
Well…this has descended to weird levels.


OK first off…avernum releases not buggy? no kidding, real hard to release a game the is the same over and over and n ot have the bugs ironed out….much smaller and easier game to program. Kings bounty was bugged as hell when it was first released. I forget the other one…

Secondly, computer games are not released as bug free as say a car or an airplane because…and here is the shocker…they have a moving target, computers in every house are mostly different…they have different drivers and different components. Did you know even if you keep your computer clean, you could have two components where the drivers don't play nice together.

Brother none, you blasted their animation department, their writers, and their programmers….oh and I guess that would include the designers since AI got blasted too. So basically the only thing good about them is their Art department or did you forget about that? Take a minute and compare gothic 3 to oblivion…tell me which comes off smelling better for bugs.

You think it was a personal attack that I think your judgement is off? I think it is simply the truth, but hey YMMV.
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July 4th, 2009, 18:53
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
Secondly, computer games are not released as bug free as say a car or an airplane because…and here is the shocker…they have a moving target, computers in every house are mostly different…they have different drivers and different components. Did you know even if you keep your computer clean, you could have two components where the drivers don't play nice together.
*sigh* Yes, that's why I pointed out Fallout 3 has seen crashes on the Xbox 360 and PS3 as well. Thanks for bothering to read what I write before replying.

Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
Brother none, you blasted their animation department, their writers, and their programmers….oh and I guess that would include the designers since AI got blasted too.
I notice you haven't actually replied with arguments as to why I shouldn't blast their writers or animators.

Designers don't do AI, programmers do. So that leaves designers, modellers, world artists, concept artists and - the bit of Bethesda I always admire the most - PR. That's easily the majority of their staff I'm *not* criticizing.

You're really reaching, rune.

Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
Take a minute and compare gothic 3 to oblivion…tell me which comes off smelling better for bugs.
If "it's less buggy than Gothic 3 so it's alright" is the golden standards, then there are no buggy releases in this world, are there? Try to think before you write.

Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
You think it was a personal attack that I think your judgement is off? I think it is simply the truth, but hey YMMV.
Arguably. Does that mean it's a good approach to take if you're looking for honest debate?
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July 4th, 2009, 20:59
God, why even talk to you?

You come across all high and mighty, blast anyone else's opinion that does not agree with yours.

I don't have to argue why you bash them, because in the grande scheme of things your opinion is in the minority. I don't have to reach because it is evident here that you have irrational level of hate, and yes I do use the word hate because it fits here. I know you have your supporters that will prop you up to make you feel rightous in this, but man you come across as a zealot.
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July 4th, 2009, 21:27
Just let Brother None continue on his personal crusade against Bethesda. It's actually sort of amusing to observe.
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July 4th, 2009, 22:00
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
God, why even talk to you?

You come across all high and mighty, blast anyone else's opinion that does not agree with yours.
Pot and kettle much? Go back and read through this thread to see who starts talking down to whom, exactly. Just read the post by JDR following yours. I don't think he could sound any more belittling if he tried.

Hell, I've pointed out multiple times now I don't bash Bethesda in every area of their work, and think - for instance - that Fallout 3 is a good game. It's ironic that even after I point out that some of you have a rather affirmative bias tendency to just write me off as a fanatic without paying attention to what I'm saying, even after I actually state point-by-point what areas of Bethesda as a company I do not feel the need to criticize and sometimes even admire (Fallout 3 has some solid quest design, for instance, and you can't really fault their world design), you go ahead, ignore what I'm saying, and just blast me for opinions that are not mine without even bothering to actually engage my arguments.

Oh yes, it's very obvious that someone is wasting his time here. But it's not you. The fact that you can't see that is very typical of this place, and why many of you are not a hair better than the Codex Hivemind, just with your arrows in a different direction. Do you really think it makes you more reasonable just because your bias and tendency to dismiss and snub off people is in a more mainstream direction? Guess again.

Sorry. Someone had to say it.

Appreciate how much I hate this, by the way. I enjoy honest sharing of opinion by rational people. Passion gets in the way of that, but it's not insurmountable. I hate seeing such honest debate ruined on NMA, as it so often is, and I hate engaging in debates like these where people are more concerned with making me look bad than with replying to my posts.

Because honestly, rune, excepting insulting me, what have you been adding to this thread?
Last edited by Brother None; July 4th, 2009 at 22:12.
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July 4th, 2009, 22:46
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
…computer games are not released as bug free as say a car or an airplane because…and here is the shocker…they have a moving target….
I suppose that should be considered valuable technical insight even on a forum where most folks are already familiar with computer fundamentals. So I'll go ahead and acknowledge the point that computers aren't all identical platforms (to put it simply), and that that makes them a kind of "moving target."

Quality is just one of those subjects, I suppose, where folks are always going to disagree. But the conversation changes, in accordance with where it takes place. Maybe the computer game business ought to have a few industry boards and committees, groups where everyone can safely assume that everyone else isn't some kind of idiot.

Oh, I wish I had a river I could skate away on. But it don't snow here. It stays pretty green. I'm going to make a lot of money, then I'm going to quit this crazy scene. — [Joni Mitchell]
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July 5th, 2009, 05:43
You guys are still going on about this? I went on vacation and thought this topic would of died off by now.

I'm a little lost though. Are people worried that Beth will dumb down Doom? LMAO or is this just a crusade against Brother None and Beth in general? I've only had time to read this page and I gotta go soon, but from what I understand it's now Brother None's fault. I mean everything is his fault and bashing him is the only way to fix it? Ooookkk, good luck with that.

Either way Beth can't dumb down Doom and neither can Bro None

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July 5th, 2009, 06:02
BN, unfortunately for you, your reputation precedes you!! However, having said that I don't think you bash Beth$oft unfairly. I loved Arena and DF, tolerated MW (Yawn) and disliked Oblivion. I enjoyed F3 despite its obvious flaws. Most of your criticisms are spot on, but I think some people don't care for the way you present those opinions. That's their problem, not yours. I'll continue to buy their games in the (forlorn) hope that they'll one day learn how to achieve their obvious potential!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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July 5th, 2009, 06:55
Originally Posted by skavenhorde View Post
I'm a little lost though. Are people worried that Beth will dumb down Doom? LMAO or is this just a crusade against Brother None and Beth in general? I've only had time to read this page and I gotta go soon, but from what I understand it's now Brother None's fault. I mean everything is his fault and bashing him is the only way to fix it? Ooookkk, good luck with that.

Er….you should try reading through the thread some more, because your analysis is way off.
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July 5th, 2009, 23:35
Damn right this thread went on too long, skavenhorde

Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
I enjoyed F3 despite its obvious flaws. Most of your criticisms are spot on, but I think some people don't care for the way you present those opinions. That's their problem, not yours.
I also enjoyed Fallout 3 despite its flaws, as long as I managed to ignore it's supposed to be Fallout 3…

As for presentation, I actually do realise I sometimes tend to state my opinion unclearly, or overstate it because I'm more used to another form of discourse than is used here. It is my fault in that sense, tho' I can not claim responsibility beyond there.
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July 6th, 2009, 05:12
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Er….you should try reading through the thread some more, because your analysis is way off.
Like I said I only had a chance to read this page, but found it highly entertaining in a WTF happened sorta way

It'll have to remain a mystery, for me at least, until I get back home. I have too many beaches that are calling my name to do any real reading. But you guys have fun and remember it's ID were talking about. I don't see how Beth could do any real damage to either Quake or Doom. Both are just FPS. While I gave up on Quake after Quake 2 (It became too multiplayer oriented for me) and Doom is really just a linear FPS. Albeit fun and scary at times, but still just a linear FPS. Or maybe your not talking about that anymore In either case have fun wacking each other on the head

Wish me luck I'm trying to find a Jet-Ski (the kind you stand up on) on this island and not having much luck. All they have are those boring little mini boats like the Wave Runners or Sea Doo.

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July 6th, 2009, 15:17
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Just let Brother None continue on his personal crusade against Bethesda. It's actually sort of amusing to observe.
I believe that everyone here has his or her own things he or she doesn't like.

Seeing that I have my very own "personal crusade", I don't find mnuch too bad with the fact that other people have their own "personal crusades", too.

So, people ranting against something seems natural to me - not limited to the gaming business, but looking at *all* aspects of Life.

As long as it doesn't become troll-like behaviour.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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