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Default Completed the game - random thoughts

October 13th, 2009, 16:20
Originally Posted by Tragos View Post
Apologies for not being clear, i meant that i was not pre-occupied against Risen and i was looking forward to enjoy it .
I don't think that my posts are rude , we are just having a civilised disagreement which is the purpose of forums.
Disagreement is the purpose of forums? Damn, i must be in the wrong place. Seriously though, an argument is civilized as long as no-one is insulted and nobody bears a grudge afterwards.
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October 13th, 2009, 22:30
Originally Posted by toxeus View Post
Immersion- and atmosphere-wise, agreed. But freedom of exploration, gear choices, character development, factions, etc. i think i prowled through Risen's offerings in a few days whereas i don't think i've seen every location or piece of unique armor in Morrowind even to this day.
Quality over quantity. TEs games have loads of content, but it is shallow, terrible NPC's, bad dialog, and generic quests. Cookie cutter design. TEs games are the most overrated, crappy RPG's around. Whats worse, on Oblivion, there is no consequences for your actions, and usually no dialog choices and only one way to complete quests. You can be a member of all factions at the same time, kill everyone in your path, yet everyone walks around saying the same thing "The fighters guild is hiring.

Lets not get into the terrible leveling and loot scaling debacle. Oblivion is the RPG for console action gamers, a gateway rpg if you will. Terrible characters, and a bland world, with a broken leveling system = fail.

Give me a game like Risen over that shallow tripe anyday.
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October 14th, 2009, 01:25
Sorry MOP, but if you're calling Morrowind a shallow, cookie-cutter game, then you just invalidated every opinion you've ever given about RPG games. Morrowind is akin to games like Daggerfall, Betrayal At Krondor, the Ultima series, etc… it is a true classic, a deep and rich game. There is a reason it is STILL on store shelves today. You don't have to like it, but there is no refuting it is one of the top five all time RPGs, possibly the top two.

If you can only comment based on experience with Oblivion, then you really missed out on all the TES games over the years, and shouldn't be offering an opinion at all based on that. Oblivion was geared more towards easy console play - everyone knew it, and everyone knew that Bethesda did it to raise their sales. They've shown they are perfectly capable of creating massive and superb RPGs like Daggerfall, and leading the field to show others the way.

The actual fact of the matter, is that Risen cannot be considered a "sandbox" game, when compared to Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, or Fallout. Purely for the reason you admitted to yourself - they are exceedingly open, and the character is able to pursue anything they desire. In that regard, Risen is highly structured and linear, with quests that intertwine directly and lead you on a known path.
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October 14th, 2009, 01:51
Originally Posted by Jaga View Post
Sorry MOP, but if you're calling Morrowind a shallow, cookie-cutter game, then you just invalidated every opinion you've ever given about RPG games. Morrowind is akin to games like Daggerfall, Betrayal At Krondor, the Ultima series, etc… it is a true classic, a deep and rich game. There is a reason it is STILL on store shelves today. You don't have to like it, but there is no refuting it is one of the top five all time RPGs, possibly the top two.

If you can only comment based on experience with Oblivion, then you really missed out on all the TES games over the years, and shouldn't be offering an opinion at all based on that. Oblivion was geared more towards easy console play - everyone knew it, and everyone knew that Bethesda did it to raise their sales. They've shown they are perfectly capable of creating massive and superb RPGs like Daggerfall, and leading the field to show others the way.

The actual fact of the matter, is that Risen cannot be considered a "sandbox" game, when compared to Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, or Fallout. Purely for the reason you admitted to yourself - they are exceedingly open, and the character is able to pursue anything they desire. In that regard, Risen is highly structured and linear, with quests that intertwine directly and lead you on a known path.
\\Can u read I Was talking about oblivion, morrowind was much better then oblivion. The guy I quoted was talking about Oblivion, so I responded, helps to read all the posts bud. Yes, Morrowind, and daggerfall were great, although top 5 all time, hard to say, games like baldurs gate, planescape torment, KOTOR, The witcher, Vampire: Bloodlines. and many others…………..

Also, Sandbox game does not make it better. For a game to be so open, compromises have to be made. many of the best RPG s ever are not sandbox games, for a game to be so open, some focus is lost.

It Can easily be refutted it is in the top two, thats a bit much, because you say it, does not make it so. Morrowind was good, but not the be all end all of RPG's, not even close.
Last edited by mastorofpuppetz; October 14th, 2009 at 02:02.
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October 14th, 2009, 02:33
Did anybody else think Risen has the Lionheart Legacy of the Crusader syndrome, only to a lesser degree? I mean the first large part of the game is fascinating, simply outstanding, and then the game goes incredibly stale. I just wanted to get the thing over with at the end. I think Gothic 1 and 2 had similar endings, but this felt like drawing out Chapter 6 of Gothic 2 for like 15+ hours.

Really I liked the first part so much it was still a good game, but the last half of the game would just kill the score if I had to review it. If the last half was as varied and interesting as the first, this game is one of the greatest of all time. Instead, the game is just pretty good. I would rate it lower than Fallout 3 or Oblivion because the last half is too much of a chore (5 of this, 5 of that, 5 more of this, go to five of these ect).
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October 14th, 2009, 03:17
Well, I would hardly compare it to Lionheart, where there was such a black and white cut between good and bad, good being brilliant, and bad being just plain horrible. However, the first two chapters definetly are better than the two final chapters, though the 3rd can be excused - it is fun to crawl around in the dungeon for a bit, solving puzzles and finally putting all those awesome skills to good use. It does get too repititive, but if chapter 4 was a worthy finish, I don't think anyone would complain about 3 either. I think it simply ends up being too much.
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October 14th, 2009, 03:45
I only just finished it, so that was my impression just coming away from it. I probably need some time to put it in perspective, but I was bored throughout chapter 4. I know the last half of Risen doesn't compare to the last half of Lionheart in quality, Risen is clearly a finished game. It is just the contrast between the first half and second reminded me of that game, but to a much lesser degree. If Lionheart was brilliant/terrible, I think the first half of Risen was brilliant, the second half was just below average.
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October 14th, 2009, 04:51
Actually, the first Gothic is the only PB game that didn't feel "rushed" towards the end ( Well, I suppose G3 wasn't so much rushed as it was unfinished). Good thing is that G2+NOTR have so much content that you don't feel that cheated when the final chapter is a quick and dirty dungeon crawl.

Also, to Risen's credit, the Dungeons and caves are more interesting this time.
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October 14th, 2009, 05:26
The strange thing is that the first Gothic was totally rushed. According to stories from the good old days, PB had burned through so much money that their publisher gave them one last deadline and made clear he would "release what we have". With the result that the game was only playable three months after release, when patch 1.08 came out.
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October 14th, 2009, 07:50
Originally Posted by mastorofpuppetz View Post
Quality over quantity. TEs games have loads of content, but it is shallow, terrible NPC's, bad dialog, and generic quests. Cookie cutter design. TEs games are the most overrated, crappy RPG's around. Whats worse, on Oblivion, there is no consequences for your actions, and usually no dialog choices and only one way to complete quests. You can be a member of all factions at the same time, kill everyone in your path, yet everyone walks around saying the same thing "The fighters guild is hiring.

Lets not get into the terrible leveling and loot scaling debacle. Oblivion is the RPG for console action gamers, a gateway rpg if you will. Terrible characters, and a bland world, with a broken leveling system = fail.

Give me a game like Risen over that shallow tripe anyday.
I was mainly talking about Morrowind, but what you say does apply to TES games in general. Naturally Morrowind was not without flaws, grand flaws. Just to clarify; I ended up hating Oblivion, even with all the mods and hard work trying to enjoy it. Morrowind was indeed shallow and rather empty, but mods filled the world quite nicely with action.

But you can befriend everybody in Risen too, can't you? The bandit smith will sell you his cluttered wares even if you're an Inquisition warrior. If there was any real aggro between factions in Risen, they would attack you on sight. Also, the robed Monastery zealots wouldn't allow the Don's emissary to wander about, stealing and ripping them off.

But you can do all that in Risen, in Morrowind, in Oblivion, in Gothic 2 and 3… etc. Gothic 3 was even funnier, you could walk around the cities wearing rebel armor, whereas a random rebel NPC would be killed at the gate.

edit: I just remembered, Oblivion did allow you to join all factions but there was a mod for Morrowind that added faction relationships and increased the requirements to join. Even the original design required specific skills and attributes in order to join, a warrior didn't necessarily have the required skill in Destruction magic to join the Mages Guild for example. Also the factions didn't offer ANY services to other faction members with the mod. One plus to replay value.
Last edited by toxeus; October 14th, 2009 at 08:03.
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October 14th, 2009, 11:52
Daggerfall was, at best, a fantastic ambitious IDEA. In actual execution it was bug-ridden to the core and utterly hollow inside the admittedly huge shell.

There's no doubt all TES games are more sandbox than Risen, but that in itself isn't the only factor to take into account when considering quality. It's easier to make a sandbox game than to fill it with quality content. It should be a competent mix of the two, and in those terms, I'd say Risen and the two first Gothics completely destroy every single TES game based on the richness of the features, and not the size or scope of the world and its cardboard characters ala Morrowind.

But again, it's all down to preference.
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October 14th, 2009, 15:09
Originally Posted by toxeus View Post
I was mainly talking about Morrowind, but what you say does apply to TES games in general. Naturally Morrowind was not without flaws, grand flaws. Just to clarify; I ended up hating Oblivion, even with all the mods and hard work trying to enjoy it. Morrowind was indeed shallow and rather empty, but mods filled the world quite nicely with action.

But you can befriend everybody in Risen too, can't you? The bandit smith will sell you his cluttered wares even if you're an Inquisition warrior. If there was any real aggro between factions in Risen, they would attack you on sight. Also, the robed Monastery zealots wouldn't allow the Don's emissary to wander about, stealing and ripping them off.

But you can do all that in Risen, in Morrowind, in Oblivion, in Gothic 2 and 3… etc. Gothic 3 was even funnier, you could walk around the cities wearing rebel armor, whereas a random rebel NPC would be killed at the gate.

edit: I just remembered, Oblivion did allow you to join all factions but there was a mod for Morrowind that added faction relationships and increased the requirements to join. Even the original design required specific skills and attributes in order to join, a warrior didn't necessarily have the required skill in Destruction magic to join the Mages Guild for example. Also the factions didn't offer ANY services to other faction members with the mod. One plus to replay value.
There is still a BIG difference in the consequences of your actions, in oblivion yopu can murder anyone and they turna blind eye, in Risen, you just take out your sword, they get ready to attack you, and, if you say or do the wrong thing, people willr efuse to talk to you or even become hostile. Also, once you decide to Join a side, some quests are off limits.
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October 15th, 2009, 20:23
Jesus, that was awful. Just finished. I was unimpressed with the temple sections, but the ending managed to be even worse. Jesus.

I've pretty much given up on PB as a developer now. I think they would have to make some changes in the way they work to solve the problems they have, and if they haven't done it by now, I guess it's not going to happen.

The only thing they've got right in every game is the landscape. The living NPCs, with all that means, are great, but they haven't moved on since 2001. Quest design is still average, and they just can't pull it together in an over-arching plot. I honestly think they have some awesome people there… who aren't making the decisions that matter. For fuck's sake, 5 dungeons? No people? Enemies unable to express themselves in any kind of way except by hitting you? No choices. It was just awful. I agree with the sentiments above - best bits 10/10, quite a lot of it 5 or 6 out of 10, ending zero. Not only have you forgotten we're playing an open-world RPG, you've forgotten we're playing THIS ONE. You have thrown away every aspect of my character and experiene thus far, and replaced it with your pre-scripted (and really quite shit) final encounter. Null points, you hear me? Null. Get that guy another job.

Or form a spin off. Landscape and AI guy on their own, without the hangers on. That, I'd pay for.
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October 15th, 2009, 23:26
I really would not define any of the Gothics as "open world RPGs". At least not in the same boat as Morrowind or Oblivion. Gothics more or less have their own genre at this point, where the start is very open with different factions, and then it gets more narrow as you progress. It was the same in Gothic 1 and 2. All in all, I think it's safe to say most people that enjoyed G1/2 will also enjoy Risen.
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October 16th, 2009, 01:45
Horrible ending. The temple was such a tragedy, as it seemed to me that the game forced you to use levitation, telekinesis and nautilus scrolls. Actually, I thought the spells were a lot less creative than the Gothic Series…In gothic, you had 3 spells for EACH category, where as risen you only had fireball and some blast thing. The final boss was too arcade, and it was a turn down.

The Combat was very intuitive, and involved the player. However, and this is what annoyed me early on…I defeat Brogar at level 2, with NO armor on. Com' on! He was suppose to be the big fish, and here comes a shipwrecked survivor in rags and kicks his ass. In Gothic, I always feared everyone at a low level (e.g. Spike in New Camp, the arena fighters at old camp).

Graphics was same as Gothic 1 (FOR ITS TIME). G1 wasnt anything special back in 2001, and so is Risen nothing special in 2009. Its no Crysis.

Inquisitor was a douche. I didn't take him seriously, because he didnt seem to know anything about anything. Xardas had a lot of knowledge, and I always appreciated talking to him. Where as inquisitor, he would ask stupid questions as "What will we do now"? or "Who are this new enemy" or "YOU have to kill such and such, or else the whole world will be destroyed". Can't he do small tasks himself? Next he would ask the player to wipe his nose for him.

There was no point in Joining any faction, because it didn't make any difference what so ever. I joined the Don, BUT I would have done the exact same things had not joined anyone. I received no benefits from joining the Don. He had a whole pile of gold behind him, yet still wanted me to PAY for the Armour. Freeloader!

Risen combined the best parts of the Gothics, however itself turned out worse than G3. I have no fond recollections/memories from my Risen experience, Nor can I quote a line from it. Gothic is another story: "Your strength has increased a lot!" OR "I'll have a stalk for 10 ore…Come back any time brother" OR "OLD MINE CAVED IN!" OR "I have renounced the Old Gods!". Remember those quotes? Even in G3, I fondly remember the beautiful scenery: the views from Faring, the warm atmosphere in Lago. Even the guitar music in Trelis! Rozenkrantz is a great composer, but I didn't feel immersed in his theme.

Overall, I was deeply disappointed. I simply didnt feel the threat of the island and the risen danger. I would give it the following:

Overall
Gothic 1 - 10/10
Gothic 2 - 9.5/10
NOTR - 9/10
G3 - 8/10
Risen - 7/10

Combat
G2 - 10/10
G1 - 10/10
Risen - 9.5/10
Dark Messiah of Might and Magic - 9/10
Severance - 8/10
Oblivion - 7.5/10
G3 - 7/10
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October 19th, 2009, 21:25
Someone was talking about background lore and stuff and I disagree with that member who said there isn't enough of it. I love lore but I hate when they overdo it and Risen makes it pefect, you can get some smalls bits about the lore and the situation on the mainland from dialogs, quests etc. They don't throw you everything they just give small bits that you must built on your own to see a clearer image on the situation

They did the same in Gothics. In my opinion this style of lore telling is very good, they don't force you anything, tho there could have been more dialogs with pieces on that I agree, still it's enough.
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October 20th, 2009, 21:51
I really wanted to like this game more than I did, as I've been a big fan of the Gothic series, but this was just missing the magic that let me ignore the annoying bits. First of all, while I know they wanted to do a more compressed game world as compared to Gothic 3, this was really too far. Because of the small size and limited options, everything felt telegraphed, and there wasn't nearly the same sense of free exploration as in the previous games. The main quests' magic forcefields and Patty's daddy's treasure hunt only reinforced this. With even a few more cities and more varied countryside the game would have been more replayable, but I felt ripped off that I saw 90% of the stuff I adventured for in CH1 on the side of the road for main quests later on.

While I didn't take the magic path, the general impression that I got was that it's pretty forced as well, with little choice. Fighters have it fairly bad too, especially if you make the mistake that I did and chose axes, because it was the best item in the Don's camp at the time. After a couple hours I downloaded a trainer and shifted my skill points into swords, and I was shocked to find only two better axes in the game, one of which was the Titan axe. Did they just forget to add axes in, or will we have to buy the DLC for that? Without the trainer I would have been screwed, and there was no way to know that whole path would suck so much. Bows also seemed to be clumsy, whereas in G3 you could slaughter your enemies with good aim and precise fast movement. Again, G3 may have been a bit of a sprawling mess, but Risen just seems under-ambitious and too safe.

It certainly wasn't all negative, though. The dialogue choices were an improvement on previous games, although none seriously affect the game world. The melee combat system is fun, with a learning curve that rewards learning how each weapon and opponent move. It'd be great to see more weapon types (axe-slashing, sword-piercing, hammer-blunt) with different attack and defense moves, striking range, and speed; each player could pick their own favorite style, as long as there was content to back each choice up. The engine was a definite improvement; it's far smoother on my old-ish gaming laptop than G3 and runs and looks great on a friend's high-end gaming PC.

I hate to trot it out as it's something that gets said way too often, but I can't help but think that we'd have a bigger gameworld and more complex RPG system if we weren't limited to the Xbox 360's 512MB of RAM. Hopefully the next generation of consoles will have 4GB+ RAM and large SSDs so these limitations are things of the past, but for now, the dread plague consolitis will continue to affect our games.

Originally Posted by Wheres_the_Guru
Wanna know who invented the word great? I did ever seen something and you thought it was great? Chances are it has something to do with me.
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October 22nd, 2009, 04:20
Aah, I should say, my favorite moment in the game was the reaction of the harbor guard when I told him I wanted to leave. He sincerely laughed for about 20 secs. Anyone take note of that?
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October 22nd, 2009, 21:46
I hate to trot it out as it's something that gets said way too often, but I can't help but think that we'd have a bigger gameworld and more complex RPG system if we weren't limited to the Xbox 360's 512MB of RAM. Hopefully the next generation of consoles will have 4GB+ RAM and large SSDs so these limitations are things of the past, but for now, the dread plague consolitis will continue to affect our games.
The size of the world is hardly because of ram limitations. The engine is streaming content, and technically, there's no reason it couldn't be a hundred times bigger.

The thing is, it takes time to fill the world with dense content and that's likely the reason it's not bigger.
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October 22nd, 2009, 22:02
Originally Posted by Evil Timmy View Post
I really wanted to like this game more than I did, as I've been a big fan of the Gothic series, but this was just missing the magic that let me ignore the annoying bits. First of all, while I know they wanted to do a more compressed game world as compared to Gothic 3, this was really too far. Because of the small size and limited options, everything felt telegraphed, and there wasn't nearly the same sense of free exploration as in the previous games. The main quests' magic forcefields and Patty's daddy's treasure hunt only reinforced this. With even a few more cities and more varied countryside the game would have been more replayable,

I thought it captured the magic of PB's older games far better than Gothic 3 did.

As far as the world size is concerned, I was satisfied by it. Gothic 3 was larger, but much of it felt superficial to me.
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