|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Mass Effect 2 - Free Cerberus Armor and Eviscerator Shotgun DLC

Default Mass Effect 2 - Free Cerberus Armor and Eviscerator Shotgun DLC

February 11th, 2010, 13:07
Originally Posted by DeepO View Post
Help us all.
Well explain why its not a proper RPG. Its not my favourite RPG by a long stretch however its a damn sight more RPG like than ME2.
Coldcall is offline

Coldcall

Watcher

#21

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 62

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 13:31
Originally Posted by Coldcall View Post
Oblivion is a proper RPG and is far deeper/heavier from an RPG perspective.
If you add the Oblivion expansion, when counting every quest in the game, I remember only 2 choices you can make in the entire game, one being which of the two houses to support in the expansion. No One Lives Forever 2 have more choices than Oblivion.

And no, what armor to wear isn't a choice in that regard.

The pillar of dialog and emotion in Oblivion was if a NPC could make you laugh, like the orc that always misplaced his words, but most of the dialogue is like;

NPC: I saw a mudcrab yesterday.
- Rumours?
- Goodbye

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
JemyM is offline

JemyM

JemyM's Avatar
Okay, now roll sanity.

#22

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,028
Send a message via ICQ to JemyM Send a message via MSN to JemyM

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 13:52
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
If you add the Oblivion expansion, when counting every quest in the game, I remember only 2 choices you can make in the entire game, one being which of the two houses to support in the expansion. No One Lives Forever 2 have more choices than Oblivion.

And no, what armor to wear isn't a choice in that regard.

The pillar of dialog and emotion in Oblivion was if a NPC could make you laugh, like the orc that always misplaced his words, but most of the dialogue is like;

NPC: I saw a mudcrab yesterday.
- Rumours?
- Goodbye
And? You've complained about the dialogue alot which i can only assume means you think an RPG is based on the standard of dialogue. Its not. Many great RPGs have almost nil dialogue.

Oblivion is more of an RPG on just about every level of gameplay mechanics. Sorry about the non Bioware standard of dialogue but its totally irrelevant from an RPG mechanics depth perspective.

Followig your logic then every interactive movie game ever made is a hardcore rpg…
Coldcall is offline

Coldcall

Watcher

#23

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 62

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 14:01
Originally Posted by Coldcall View Post
Well explain why its not a proper RPG. Its not my favourite RPG by a long stretch however its a damn sight more RPG like than ME2.
Back in the day, quite a few journalist hailed Oblivion as a future, a new messiah of cRPGs while the actual gameīs RPG mechanics were largely skeletonized, both in role-play and roll-play sense. No C&Cs, level scaling which completely broke verisimilitude and made character development meaningless, minigames, etc.

The point is, itīs rather ironic that you called Oblivion a proper RPG, because the game is basically an embodiment of what you seem to be concerned about in regards to reception of Mass Effect 2.
DeepO is offline

DeepO

DeepO's Avatar
deep outside

#24

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Prague
Posts: 2,341

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 14:20
Originally Posted by DeepO View Post
Back in the day, quite a few journalist hailed Oblivion as a future, a new messiah of cRPGs while the actual gameīs RPG mechanics were largely skeletonized, both in role-play and roll-play sense. No C&Cs, level scaling which completely broke verisimilitude and made character development meaningless, minigames, etc.

The point is, itīs rather ironic that you called Oblivion a proper RPG, because the game is basically an embodiment of what you seem to be concerned about in regards to reception of Mass Effect 2.
What complete nonsense to cpmpare the shallow, ultra-linear, almost zero configurable ME2 to Oblivion.

However i would agree that vanilla Oblivion left much to be desired but its still a way more involved, complex RPG than ME2.

Just from a basic perspective of how you level up and how your skills improve from usage Oblivion craps all over ME2.

For gods sakes, in ME2 you never even know what your xp is exactly. It just says how much to go for the next level. Fursther more, xp is doled out on a per compelted misison basis. You get nothing for working harder or less hard on the missions.

In theory Shepard could hide behind the crates for just about every battle, never actually killing any baddies himself, and just keep reviving your dead team mates and they will eventually complete the level. Think about that its so broken that Shepard could go through the game without killing anything and styill reach level 25-30.

You think thats a solid rpg engine do you?> You need to get out more.
Coldcall is offline

Coldcall

Watcher

#25

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 62

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 14:27
DeepO,

One more thing to add. I never accepted Oblivion as genre defining or some huge quantum leap in RPGs.

Morrowind was a quantum leap in open endedness and configuration. Oblviion was purely their slghtly dumbed-down follow-on with a slightly nicer graphics engine.
Coldcall is offline

Coldcall

Watcher

#26

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 62

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 14:42
Originally Posted by Coldcall View Post
What complete nonsense to cpmpare the shallow, ultra-linear, almost zero configurable ME2 to Oblivion.
The obvious comparison is that both got obscenely high scores with blatant 'streamlining' of what many call traditional RPG elements, each with some significant flaws that are either ignored or glossed over in reviews.

— Mike
txa1265 is online now

txa1265

txa1265's Avatar
SasqWatch

#27

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corning, NY USA
Posts: 11,561

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 14:42
Originally Posted by Coldcall View Post
Oblviion was purely their slghtly dumbed-down follow-on with a slightly nicer graphics engine.

I'd say Oblivion was more than just "slightly" dumbed down.
JDR13 is offline

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch

#28

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 18,316

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 15:07
Originally Posted by Coldcall View Post
Oblviion was purely their slghtly dumbed-down follow-on with a slightly nicer graphics engine.
Yep, though "slightly" is an understatement.
Chances are this "dumbing down" along with critical acclaim totally blown out of proportion quite significantly contributed (or maybe just hastened, eh) to the overall "dumbing down" of the genre. Quest compass, for example, is a standard cRPG feature nowadays.
I wasnīt commenting on ME2īs "rpgness" at all.
DeepO is offline

DeepO

DeepO's Avatar
deep outside

#29

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Prague
Posts: 2,341

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 15:21
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
The obvious comparison is that both got obscenely high scores with blatant 'streamlining' of what many call traditional RPG elements, each with some significant flaws that are either ignored or glossed over in reviews.
Yes they did but at least in the case of Oblivion it was a genuine RPG (more or less). My point about ME2 is its getting high scores and mentioned as an RPG in the same reviews!
Coldcall is offline

Coldcall

Watcher

#30

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 62

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 15:30
Originally Posted by DeepO View Post
Yep, though "slightly" is an understatement.
Chances are this "dumbing down" along with critical acclaim totally blown out of proportion quite significantly contributed (or maybe just hastened, eh) to the overall "dumbing down" of the genre. Quest compass, for example, is a standard cRPG feature nowadays.
I wasnīt commenting on ME2īs "rpgness" at all.
Ya i hate quests compasses too :-)

Thing is in ME2 its so linear the quest compass is completely redundant. There is no point in the game where one can choose from two diferent paths. You are on rails and theres no leaving them.

But i do wish you;d adress my point about the fact that a Shepard in ME2 needs not do any heavy lifting for his experience levels. He seriously could be a bystrander for most missions and the outcome would be excatly the same.

In fact in the whole Me2 i never felt in danger once, except for the fight against the Praetorian at Horizon. Even the final mission was a joke because the last boss is so easy to kill its ridiculous.

At east with Oblviion and the OOO mod it feels a dangerous world. Walk into many of the dungeons and caves at a lower lelvel and you are goblin snack. By the way, OOO re-works the levelling so its static for the majority of dungeons and caves, plots etc..

never once in ME2 did i feel isolated or wondered how will i get out of this mess. Even ME1 had tougher fights such as the Krogan at end of Therum when you pick up Liara, and Noverria can be quite tough when you confront the matriarch anmd her asari commandos.
Coldcall is offline

Coldcall

Watcher

#31

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 62

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 15:51
In case anyone hasn't realized it yet I just thought I should make it clear that in Coldcall's case RPG stands for ROLL Playing Game and not the more commonly known ROLE Playing Game.

It makes his comments a lot easier to understand with this distinction in mind

"Chess in particular had always annoyed him. It was the dumb way the pawns went off and slaughtered their fellow pawns while the kings lounged about doing nothing that always got to him; if only the pawns united, maybe talked the rooks around, the whole board could've been a republic in a dozen moves." - Commander Vimes in Thud! by Terry Pratchett
fatBastard() is offline

fatBastard()

fatBastard()'s Avatar
Hello, I'm a Zombaholic

#32

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just outside of Copenhagen
Posts: 778

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 15:54
Originally Posted by Coldcall View Post
What complete nonsense to cpmpare the shallow, ultra-linear, almost zero configurable ME2 to Oblivion.

However i would agree that vanilla Oblivion left much to be desired but its still a way more involved, complex RPG than ME2.

Just from a basic perspective of how you level up and how your skills improve from usage Oblivion craps all over ME2.

For gods sakes, in ME2 you never even know what your xp is exactly. It just says how much to go for the next level. Fursther more, xp is doled out on a per compelted misison basis. You get nothing for working harder or less hard on the missions.

In theory Shepard could hide behind the crates for just about every battle, never actually killing any baddies himself, and just keep reviving your dead team mates and they will eventually complete the level. Think about that its so broken that Shepard could go through the game without killing anything and styill reach level 25-30.

You think thats a solid rpg engine do you?> You need to get out more.
What do you think the role in roleplaying means?

Computerizing mechanics was the primary point with CRPG's during the 80'ies and early 90'ies, but with Baldur's Gate the emphasis was moved more to what the roleplaying games always been about; playing a role. A character. An individual. A person.

In a roleplaying game the mechanics are there to enhance the game, one can say it's the "game" aspect of roleplaying, but roleplaying is still first and foremost about playing the role.

This means making character choices is the essence of a roleplaying game.

What kind of choices can you make to develop a character in Oblivion? What kind of freedom do you really have? What does the game really offer in terms of questing, story and choices?

You mention that ME2 is ultra-linear. The basic structure of ME2 is 7 recruitment missions, 15-20 side missions and 7 loyalty missions that can be taken in any order. The main quest in Oblivion is completely linear, all you must do is to go to the next waypoint in a A-B-C-D-E progression. The game scales in a way that you have little reason to beef up your character and the way equipment/experience/levels work you never really need any special equipment either. You can finish the game as a level 1 character and many actually try to do that.

Write down the quests in Oblivion on a paper and connect them with lines.
Compare this with a game like Fallout 2 or Gothic 3.

You will see that the amount of quests in Oblivion are, despite the size of the world, very few. Most of these are finished very quickly, but you also have guild-quests and the main quests that are super-linear "follow the waypoint" storylines that never ever offer you a choice on how to finish a quest. There are no choice you can make that have any kind of impact on the world. In essence you are playing a themepark where you as a player are there to see events develop but you never really have the ability to affect them.

In Fallout 2 and Gothic 3, every single city you enter, almost every encounter have a choice in how to finish the quest. What path you pick will have a great impact on that area and will affect the ending you get.

Is ME2 a solid RPG? Can it be compared with the old masters like F2? No, it can't.
But comparing it with Oblivion ruins your credibility.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
JemyM is offline

JemyM

JemyM's Avatar
Okay, now roll sanity.

#33

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,028
Send a message via ICQ to JemyM Send a message via MSN to JemyM

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 18:40
Have to agree with JemyM on this one. Yes, ME2 has been streamlined to be more of a shooter than an RPG, but Oblivion is an action adventure more than anything else.

Doesn't mean it's a bad game, by all means, but the frustration of never being able to make a single choice to change the outcome of a quest ruined the whole experience for me.

Imagine the fun of betraying those pansies in the mage guild so you could join the necromancers instead..
Maylander is offline

Maylander

SasqWatch

#34

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bergen
Posts: 5,677
Send a message via MSN to Maylander

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 20:03
I'm curious as to how Bioware perceive ME2…I'm sure they called it an "RPG". So what exactly do they mean by that? I'm quite far in, and the game has become so repetitive I would stop *but*…it's so pretty :-) I'm a graphics whore… well, at least when the underlying rpg mechanics are simplistic and/or tedious. Every bloody encounter plays out almost identically. Biotics up. zap,pow, shields down! stay in cover, pop out of cover, zap BOOM! barrier up, renew barrier etc etc. So I'd say as a team-based shooter, it's not really that engaging - all that change sis the position and composition of the crates/walls ;-) But it is pretty. Maybe I was a magpie in a previous life. Shiny bauble! Squawk!

At least Mordin keeps me entertained. The Gilbert and Sullivan ditty almost made wet myself. Priceless!

One other question: am I missing something or do you have to *manually* scan every frickin planet if you're looking for metals etc? Or can enter system, launch a probe and wait? Or something? I purchased the scanning upgrade, but my mouse hand gets cramped *drag*drag* *drag* There must eb a better (read: more sensible/logical) way.
booboo is offline

booboo

booboo's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#35

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 1,006

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 20:11
Originally Posted by booboo View Post
One other question: am I missing something or do you have to *manually* scan every frickin planet if you're looking for metals etc? Or can enter system, launch a probe and wait? Or something? I purchased the scanning upgrade, but my mouse hand gets cramped *drag*drag* *drag* There must eb a better (read: more sensible/logical) way.
Only scan planets that are good or higher and only do so when you need to, although you might wish to scan systems you enter that doesn't have a relay (if you wasted fuel to get there). If you are desperate, moderate is decent but a waste of money, poor and depleted give you almost nothing even if you probe a 7-8 vein.

And it's also essential that you probe Uranus.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
JemyM is offline

JemyM

JemyM's Avatar
Okay, now roll sanity.

#36

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,028
Send a message via ICQ to JemyM Send a message via MSN to JemyM

Default 

February 11th, 2010, 20:12
Originally Posted by Coldcall View Post

In theory Shepard could hide behind the crates for just about every battle, never actually killing any baddies himself, and just keep reviving your dead team mates and they will eventually complete the level. Think about that its so broken that Shepard could go through the game without killing anything and styill reach level 25-30.
I haven't read the whole thread, so just one comment: The above is incorrect, even as an exaggeration. You only have limited "revives", based on the limitations of your medi-gel storage and how many units you found.

IMO, Mass Effect 2 is an RPG. It may be a bit thin at places, and the RPG elements might be not great all in all, but I think that the most confusion stems from the elements being less conventional. You can still upgrade your character, and there are some decisions to make. It is just that a lot is managed through improving equipment, and not your character's stats. If Medi-Gel storage would be called a healing skill, armor upgrades endurance etc., I am sure more people woould call it an RPG.
Grandor Dragon is offline

Grandor Dragon

Sentinel

#37

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London, UK
Posts: 557

Default 

February 12th, 2010, 16:24
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Only scan planets that are good or higher and only do so when you need to, although you might wish to scan systems you enter that doesn't have a relay (if you wasted fuel to get there). If you are desperate, moderate is decent but a waste of money, poor and depleted give you almost nothing even if you probe a 7-8 vein.

And it's also essential that you probe Uranus.
I tried that already - didn't yield much of interest ;-)

Yep, I pretty much ignored poor and even moderate worlds, I just thought there might have been some further ship upgrade that automated the process. Guess not.
booboo is offline

booboo

booboo's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#38

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 1,006

Default 

February 12th, 2010, 18:35
I think maybe people should remember that games are meant to be fun, not some size conmparing fight on a forums. Wow.
rune_74 is offline

rune_74

SasqWatch

#39

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,110
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Mass Effect 2 - Free Cerberus Armor and Eviscerator Shotgun DLC
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:00.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch