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Default The Witcher 2 - Preview at N4G

April 1st, 2011, 14:31
Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
The problem is that you won't get funding for the game in the first place from any investor. So you're left with people basically having to work for free on games, which means it's not something you can do as a day job or for any length of time.

That's fine for games like angry birds, but you couldn't do a modern equivalent of ultima 7 for free.
Ya I suppose. I was reading though it cost 150,000 to make angry birds and they've made 80 million. Now that's a return on your investment. Not sure how it would work but I would think other companies could benefit from that business model even if the game cost 10 million to make.
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April 1st, 2011, 14:38
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
Ya I suppose. I was reading though it cost 150,000 to make angry birds and they've made 80 million. Now that's a return on your investment. Not sure how it would work but I would think other companies could benefit from that business model even if the game cost 10 million to make.
Hence the surge in casual gaming titles. The iOS and PC forte!
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April 1st, 2011, 17:25
Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
Yet more people buy games for the console than PC, despite the vastly larger gaming capable PC base.
PC games sell more worldwide and total revenue have been increasing since 2008 despite smaller price tag. While console sales have been decreasing in the same time period and will continue down until new consoles are released (next 5 years).

Also, no digital retailer give their PC digital sales numbers and they apparently account for more than %50 of the sales. This mean that if you see that a game sold 1 millions PC game, it probably sold closer to 2 millions copies, because that 1 million is retail box only.
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April 2nd, 2011, 23:59
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
That's because it's easier to claim PC are pirates, you don't piss off Sony and Microsoft when you do so.

Console games get pirated and that pirated version is usually the first one released, well before the PC one.
PC games do get pirated a lot more than their console counterparts. That's a fact, not a "claim". For example, look at these figures back from 2009 (article is in German language but the TorrentFreak charts are self-explanatory). As we can see the ratio of PC torrents vs X360 torrents is approximately 3:1 (if you compare the numbers for CoD: MW2 and Prototype). With Street Fighters IV it's "only" about 2:1 but I think that's because a fighting game simply works much better on a console so it seems only natural that the interest level of PC pirates was lower.

OK, sure. Feel free to make all sorts of wild claims about how these numbers are inaccurate or how they have been pulled out of someone's ass and then feel free to come up with much better and more accurate statistics if you can.
I know that one potential weakness of these numbers is that it's only torrents and that no other sources were included. It's only a potential weakness though since I am very much convinced that if you were able to track usenet and file hosting services that the number of pirated PC games would only explode even further.
Anyway, I am, of course, not claiming that these numbers are the one and only universal truth but they do very clearly indicate a trend. A trend that has nothing to do with claims or pissing off Sony (BTW if anyone is wondering: the reason the PS3 is not included in those charts is that PS3 piracy did not exist in 2009) or Microsoft or any other weird conspiracy theories but a trend that has everything to do with reality.

Finally, on a personal note, I find it very unfortunate that there are fellow PC gamers who are constantly trying to downplay the very real piracy problem. Everything would be much easier for us PC gamers if we would stand united against piracy instead of wasting energy on making up excuses for the thieving assholes out there.
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April 3rd, 2011, 00:03
The more companies turn towards consoles because of PC Pirates,
the more this is hurting PC games and PC gamers.

Because developing for consoles is like developing for a different platform (surprise, surprise ?).

With all consequences (gameplay, UI, etc.).

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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April 3rd, 2011, 00:31
Yeah, PC piracy is much worse. This is because all you need to do is download and run a file, Xbox piracy requires you mod your console and risk being banned, among other things.

Ease of use always wins… PC piracy is easier.
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April 3rd, 2011, 02:44
Originally Posted by Moriendor View Post
PC games do get pirated a lot more than their console counterparts. That's a fact, not a "claim". For example, look at these figures back from 2009 (article is in German language but the TorrentFreak charts are self-explanatory). As we can see the ratio of PC torrents vs X360 torrents is approximately 3:1 (if you compare the numbers for CoD: MW2 and Prototype). With Street Fighters IV it's "only" about 2:1 but I think that's because a fighting game simply works much better on a console so it seems only natural that the interest level of PC pirates was lower.

OK, sure. Feel free to make all sorts of wild claims about how these numbers are inaccurate or how they have been pulled out of someone's ass and then feel free to come up with much better and more accurate statistics if you can.
I know that one potential weakness of these numbers is that it's only torrents and that no other sources were included. It's only a potential weakness though since I am very much convinced that if you were able to track usenet and file hosting services that the number of pirated PC games would only explode even further.
Anyway, I am, of course, not claiming that these numbers are the one and only universal truth but they do very clearly indicate a trend. A trend that has nothing to do with claims or pissing off Sony (BTW if anyone is wondering: the reason the PS3 is not included in those charts is that PS3 piracy did not exist in 2009) or Microsoft or any other weird conspiracy theories but a trend that has everything to do with reality.

Finally, on a personal note, I find it very unfortunate that there are fellow PC gamers who are constantly trying to downplay the very real piracy problem. Everything would be much easier for us PC gamers if we would stand united against piracy instead of wasting energy on making up excuses for the thieving assholes out there.
Were the hell did I claim the console got pirated more? I just said that console games get pirated and that game makers didn't give a damn about it, despite console game leaks usually happening before the PC ones (when both games have the same release date). If pirates were such an issue as they claim, they would "hunt" consoles pirates and blame them as well. Actually, from what I have seen, used games resale anger them more then pirates, on all platform (say hello to zero-day DLCs).
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April 3rd, 2011, 02:46
Devs should flood the internet with virus laden copies of their games. Not sure it would help but would love to hear all the pirates whining about getting viruses.
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April 3rd, 2011, 04:06
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
Were the hell did I claim the console got pirated more? I just said that console games get pirated and that game makers didn't give a damn about it, despite console game leaks usually happening before the PC ones (when both games have the same release date). If pirates were such an issue as they claim, they would "hunt" consoles pirates and blame them as well. Actually, from what I have seen, used games resale anger them more then pirates, on all platform (say hello to zero-day DLCs).
Console piracy is less of a deal because console games still have high sale numbers. It's all about sales in the end.
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April 3rd, 2011, 04:27
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
Yeah, PC piracy is much worse. This is because all you need to do is download and run a file, Xbox piracy requires you mod your console and risk being banned, among other things.

Ease of use always wins… PC piracy is easier.
I dont think that matters to pirates. They get to play your games free and if they get banned who cares.I know I dont use home or live. I have a pc for my Internet and it works for me.

Setting up a router for my consoles was a bitch.

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April 3rd, 2011, 04:57
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
Console piracy is less of a deal because console games still have high sale numbers. It's all about sales in the end.
Sales are an interesting concept, did you know that console game sales have been dropping for the 3rd consecutive year? -6% from 2009 and 2010 in the USA only.

Game makers/publishers actually have a reason to "hunt down" console pirates…

For the record, PC game sales are still climbing for the 3rd year in a row, thanks to digital.


Yes, I hate double standards.
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April 3rd, 2011, 07:00
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
Sales are an interesting concept, did you know that console game sales have been dropping for the 3rd consecutive year? -6% from 2009 and 2010 in the USA only.

Game makers/publishers actually have a reason to "hunt down" console pirates…

For the record, PC game sales are still climbing for the 3rd year in a row, thanks to digital.


Yes, I hate double standards.
Climbing versus falling is a nice parallel to make, but at the end of the day sales totals on console versions are still significantly higher, so does it matter? I'm not sure what your argument is.

Of course companies hate ALL piracy, but at the end of the day the platform with the most piracy and the lowest sales numbers is going to be the one they focus on. That's just common sense.
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April 3rd, 2011, 14:16
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
Ease of use always wins… PC piracy is easier.
Right.

Nothing to add here, imho.

Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
For the record, PC game sales are still climbing for the 3rd year in a row, thanks to digital.
Yes, but I fear that retail is falling. I don't know, however.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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April 3rd, 2011, 15:16
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
Sales are an interesting concept, did you know that console game sales have been dropping for the 3rd consecutive year? -6% from 2009 and 2010 in the USA only.

Game makers/publishers actually have a reason to "hunt down" console pirates…

For the record, PC game sales are still climbing for the 3rd year in a row, thanks to digital.
Go Peggle!

So yes, casual PC games are on the rise, which is why casual game makers are staying with the PC. AAA developers on the other hand are going to consoles.

It's all about the sales/cost of dev
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April 3rd, 2011, 16:00
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
Climbing versus falling is a nice parallel to make, but at the end of the day sales totals on console versions are still significantly higher, so does it matter? I'm not sure what your argument is.

Of course companies hate ALL piracy, but at the end of the day the platform with the most piracy and the lowest sales numbers is going to be the one they focus on. That's just common sense.
They keep saying that the "PC is dying" and that piracy is why it's dying. If PC game sales revenue are increasing, doesn't it mean that piracy is decreasing and that PC gaming isn't dying? Consoles games sales are decreasing (for 3 years!), using their logic, consoles piracy is increasing, but they prefer speaking about how they can stop players from reselling their PC games (when the used console games market is a lot bigger). I'm just saying that what they say about PC gaming is valid for console gaming and they would make more money by focusing on the larger market.

For the record, Sony is thinking of adding a Serial authenticator to future PS3 games to "stop piracy".

As for ease of pirating console games, it compete with rentals: ~$20/month to be allowed to have 2 games at the same time, no limit on number of games rented per months. It beat the $60 price tag on new games and spending hours downloading something.

@Alrik : Retails is dead. I expect future games box to be limited to Collector/Limited Editions.
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April 3rd, 2011, 18:56
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
@Alrik : Retails is dead. I expect future games box to be limited to Collector/Limited Editions.
Depends to where you live. Here, it still goes on, at least to some degree.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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April 3rd, 2011, 21:59
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
They keep saying that the "PC is dying" and that piracy is why it's dying. If PC game sales revenue are increasing, doesn't it mean that piracy is decreasing and that PC gaming isn't dying? Consoles games sales are decreasing (for 3 years!), using their logic, consoles piracy is increasing, but they prefer speaking about how they can stop players from reselling their PC games (when the used console games market is a lot bigger). I'm just saying that what they say about PC gaming is valid for console gaming and they would make more money by focusing on the larger market.
The PC market is alive and well, I didn't mean to say otherwise. Where it makes the most money though is in casual games and MMOs. Singleplayer "core" games make a ton more money on consoles, which is why they are designed with consoles first in mind.

I do think as gaming gets more and more digital, more and more casual and more and more a service rather than a product that the PC will have a HUGE resurgence in the mainstream. Whether any of those games will be worth playing to me is another matter however.
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April 4th, 2011, 00:23
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
Yes, I hate double standards.
Then stop trying to create one.

We all love PC games here but there are some realities we would be foolish to dismiss. I can't recall seeing sales of a AAA (we can ignore casual, right?) multiplatform game where the console component wasn't at least double the PC. I'm sure there are exceptions but do you broadly agree? Do you agree PC piracy is more widespread than console piracy? The net result is PC piracy is orders of magnitude bigger as a percentage of platform sales. Correct?

What's the alternative you are arguing - that there is a conspiracy against PC gaming?

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April 4th, 2011, 13:40
I don't think the question is whether console games sell better, but whether PC games are still profitable - and whether the fact that console games sell better is really a "good enough" reason to ignore the PC audience.

You can't say that PC piracy is the reason console games sell better, unless you have proof of that - which we don't have. We can only speculate.

The consoles have many other advantages - like being single "set-in-stone" platforms and they offer a very cheap alternative for the end-user - when the game itself is not much different on a high-end PC.

Most casual gamers don't want the hassle of configuring games on the PC - and they most certainly don't want to deal with patches and hardware configuration-related bugs.

Ironically, console games are slowly adopting the PC standard of release-first, patch-later - but it's still a far way off from the sad state of affairs on PC.

Those are the primary reasons for console games selling better - or so I believe.

There's no incentive to cater to the PC audiences in terms of sales - except if you care about your work and your games being all they can be. Beyond that, you can build an audience based on something real - as in respect from fans, instead of successful marketing campaigns and hype. I wonder if there are not many developers who, if they could, would prefer to work on such titles.

Titles they can be proud of during interviews, without having to make up excuses for streamlining and invent reasons why developing no-challenge blueprint factory products is truly satisfying.

The fact that most AAA developers/publishers don't really care about taking their games to the next level - is what I think is unfortunate.

I don't blame the businessman for being a businessman. I just lament that businessmen seem to have taken over the industry pretty much entirely, as far as next-gen AAA games are concerned.

We still see the rare exception, like what The Witcher 2 seems to be. It's incredibly refreshing to see big cash being focused on actual evolution - rather than securing maximum return. You can call it being brave and "taking a risk" - and I'm sure that's true to an extent. But I call it having a vision and trusting in your own capacity to bring actual art/quality to the audience - and as such be reasonably secure of success.

How so? Does anyone here really believe The Witcher 2 won't be profitable? How can we feel certain without proof? Well, we can't literally know - but there is such a thing as an instinct for quality and true success. People WANT to support such an initiative - and word of mouth should never be underestimated.

In a funny way, this is what I think is the case - in reverse - with Dragon Age 2. No, the game was not up to the standards of Bioware or the prequel - but it wasn't nearly as bad as to receive such a passionate critical backlash. Not under normal circumstances. But circumstances aren't normal at this stage. I think people, and the market as a whole, is finally arriving at a point where even some of the non-hardcore/enthusiast gamers want to be treated with more intellectual respect.

We're seeing people respond not so much to the game in itself, but to the direction it represents.

The market is no longer so small as to not be able to generate profit from challenging or relatively complex games. There are millions of RPG fans out there, ready to be taken forward with a genuine piece of art.

Deus Ex 3 is another game I'm hoping will do new things and take the subgenre forward in other ways than pure production values and mainstream appeal.

But to point at PC piracy as the "cause" for developers moving to consoles - is unfounded and it's just not substantiated beyond convenient speculation.

Several AAA PC games still sell millions of copies, regardless of piracy issues. Take Crysis, which initially didn't sell enough copies to meet expectations - and the high rate of piracy was cited as the primary reason. Later on, it actually exceeded expectations and sold ~3 million copies.

Is that really not enough?
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April 4th, 2011, 14:18
Well, to take a multiplayer game as an example is kind of useless… yeah WOW is selling like crazy for the PC because it is hard to pirate. People want to take part of the crysis online play…. so they bought it.

But what single player AAA game sales well for PC ?
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