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Default Avadon - Windows Version Released

May 3rd, 2011, 15:18
Oh I saw the interface panels and as a whole you are right it is better. The question is how much better? The interface alone is miles better but when I was talking graphics I meant the actual tiles. Yes, he used new tiles for the floor and walls but the majority of items are the exact replicas of Avernums…not thats a bad thing, it just is. Now don't take my disapointment(too strong of a word really) in the reuse of item icons as a sign I don't think it's a good game…I rather like the story and the graphics ARE better, just not as better as many made you believe.

I do like that characters walk now though I did see a guard sliding around…

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May 3rd, 2011, 15:24
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
I'm not sure who thought the graphics were way better…they reuse a lot of the avernum graphics.
Well compared with Geneforge 5, they are a lot better, even if we see them being reused from other Jeff's games. Never played Avernum.
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May 3rd, 2011, 19:30
Originally Posted by Von Paulus View Post
Well compared with Geneforge 5, they are a lot better, even if we see them being reused from other Jeff's games. Never played Avernum.
I completely agree.

Avernum 6 looked a lot better than his older editions tile-wise but I absolutely hated the portrait art in A6, made the game look older than it was and way too cartoony .

But I love the new interface and portrait art in Avadon, and the tiles are improved quite a bit for as much as I've seen so far considering he is basically using the same engine as his last couple of games.
Especially noticed the improved particle graphics use with some of the spells also.
I like the map layout and dialogue screens are very easy to read, so thumbs up all around graphically for me.
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May 3rd, 2011, 20:11
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
I'm going to *try* to do a an impressions or review piece at the end of the week, having played the beta for the last couple of months.

Note that the demo areas don't show the game to its full potential. Yes, I know that's a demo's job and, no, you shouldn't just trust me if you don't like what you see. Still, it does start slowly. I think Jeff tried too hard to ease new players in, making it too easy and straight forward. There are definitely parts that will hand your ass to you later but you won't see them in the demo bit. Just *after* the demo is the first part that will make you sit up - it's a pity one more areas wasn't included.
I wonder what cover the demo, the first whole main big mission and set of area? I can't believe it would be only the first dungeon.

So I don't know for the demo but for the full game, the first time in it was just ok, I didn't enjoyed how exploration wasn't TB anymore, I didn't enjoyed much the first dungeon. Then during first hours, not sure 2, 3 or a bit more, I got interested but not chained to the game. But then at a point I started enjoy a lot the game.

But I played Hard and didn't notice difficulty problems. I mean that at Hard level it was hard enough for me, I rather often lost fights. For sure if fights had been too easy at highest difficulty level that would have been a big problem. But I am very surprised they are and that this isn't bragging.
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May 3rd, 2011, 20:35
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
As I said in the indie thread the game is surprisingly extremely bland if you ask me. Maybe that's just the demo area though, I can't really say, but it put me off buying it right away.

I'll see if there is some video of later sections. Right now though I am wondering why he made something so common that I could get so many other places with better production values.
Lol, typical players that got perverted by modern AAA games. Sure if you don't read the texts, an advice, skip it entirely.
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May 3rd, 2011, 22:30
Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
Lol, typical players that got perverted by modern AAA games. Sure if you don't read the texts, an advice, skip it entirely.
I'm not sure I get this remark. Avadon attempts very blatantly to emulate stuff BioWare does, only BioWare does it with better production values. It doesn't succeed as well as Geneforge and Avernum at filling a specific niche.
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May 3rd, 2011, 22:37
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
But when I've got to retry let's say from 10 times on, I'm beginning to lose my patience
I'm the same way. I don't want to click one button and have the fight end, or just go from A to B and never have to figure anything out, but at the same time, if I have to reload something 5-10 times, I'm going to get very frustrated very quickly.

I've mentioned it before, but the demon in the BG:TotSC in the basement of the town that is added is like that. He's damn near impossible to kill. Took me probably 20 tries. That's not fun (to me).

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May 4th, 2011, 00:26
Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
Lol, typical players that got perverted by modern AAA games. Sure if you don't read the texts, an advice, skip it entirely.
What are you talking about? The point is Avadon seems pretty bland story-wise and world-wise so far, so why play it when there are better looking games that do the same thing?

I haven't yet seen talk of it becoming more unique later on. Everyone seems to be talking about the combat, which is fine but not the main reason I play RPGs and not motivating enough to play through an otherwise bland game.
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May 4th, 2011, 00:33
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
I can't argue that the demo area is dull but party-based CRPGs - especially turnbased ones - are most definitely not common. I'm pretty sure I'm across every cRPG "with better production values", so where are you finding all these better options?

[Side note: I maintain it gets better, but I'm not asking you to accept that]
There are tons of turn-based strategy combat games, maybe not RPGs but if I am going to play Avadon for the combat then we have to compare it on that level. X-Com, Jagged Alliance, Fallout Tactics, etc. etc.. As for RPGs themselves there's Temple of Elemental Evil and probably not much more in my timeframe, you're right. Still, combat is not why I play RPGs to be honest. I play RPGs to explore, to make choices which effect my character and the world, and to experience good stories. That is my main RPG motivation.

So for me I loaded up Avadon and it's a typical fantasy setting with typical fantasy characters and quests. On top of that the writing seems very bland, very by the numbers. That makes me say "why play this when I could be playing one of the hundred other games that do this exact setting and story, but better?"

Now it might get better, I don't know. The beginning really put me off though. In contrast Eschalon, while also the typical setting and bland world I have seen a hundred times before, at least had some interesting writing at the start and it threw you right into an open world ready to be explored. That kept me playing and I purchased the game.
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May 4th, 2011, 08:58
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
What are you talking about? The point is Avadon seems pretty bland story-wise and world-wise so far, so why play it when there are better looking games that do the same thing?

I haven't yet seen talk of it becoming more unique later on. Everyone seems to be talking about the combat, which is fine but not the main reason I play RPGs and not motivating enough to play through an otherwise bland game.
What games? I don't remember your preferences and favorite games. Let imagine DAO… Now compare one dungeon of Avadon to one dungeon of DAO, the second is ridiculous baby stuff, sure ton of production value but hyper simple layout.

That's one example. Here another, how many times your companions are involved in dialogs out of home? Multiply the number you get in DAO by, probably ten.

One last, how many secrets to find in DAO? 10? i don't think there's much more, so multiply by 10.

But really if I have to pinpoint you that sort of stuff either it's because the demo stick only to first dungeon which is a terrible mistake then, either you are lost to AAA RPG crap and became blind because of it. Ok go back to your nice video and production values, nothing for you here. You better not argue with me about RPG.
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May 4th, 2011, 10:53
You're not really making me want to discuss anything with you, frankly.
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May 4th, 2011, 11:10
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
You're not really making me want to discuss anything with you, frankly.
I'm surprised you lasted this long

There are people here that obviously come from other planets, but with Dasale - we're talking alternate dimensions. Then again, I must seem that way myself to most around here.

Hehe, nah, I appreciate all kinds - and Dasale is doubtlessly a great guy IRL. I just had to place him on ignore - to save time and effort.
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May 4th, 2011, 11:30
Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
Ok go back to your nice video and production values, nothing for you here. You better not argue with me about RPG.
Whoa, there! Come off your high horse, will you. Good grief!

As for Avadon, I'll abstain from commenting now, as I've yet to play the demo more than an hour or so. Unfortunately, so far it seems to confirm my fears, but I'll play the demo to the end and form my "final judgement" on it then.

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May 4th, 2011, 13:29
Shame to hear only limited enthusiasm for this so far.

I'll definitely be buying regardless. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a slight dip in quality with this one as he's doing a new setting, engine upgrade and entirely different skill / class system for this game, I'd have thought he'd have more development time and familiarity for top quality plot & balancing with later Avadon games.
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May 4th, 2011, 14:40
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
There are tons of turn-based strategy combat games, maybe not RPGs but if I am going to play Avadon for the combat then we have to compare it on that level. X-Com, Jagged Alliance, Fallout Tactics, etc. etc.. As for RPGs themselves there's Temple of Elemental Evil and probably not much more in my timeframe, you're right.
Played all of those many, many years ago. That doesn't help much now in terms of new experiences. If you're a new RPG player coming along, sure, go play Fallout long before you worry about Avadon. For me, well, I've replayed Fallout enough.

Still, combat is not why I play RPGs to be honest. I play RPGs to explore, to make choices which effect my character and the world, and to experience good stories. That is my main RPG motivation.
Sure, I agree. Still, I enjoy TB and you don't get it much these days. There are some good choices in Avadon that definitely effect the world and the story is OK. I realise you can't see that in the demo, but it doesn't mean they aren't there.

Actually, whenever Avadon came up previously I'd point out how good A6 is - including an open world. Still, everyone was too focused on the better graphics in Avadon.

Now it might get better, I don't know. The beginning really put me off though. In contrast Eschalon, while also the typical setting and bland world I have seen a hundred times before, at least had some interesting writing at the start and it threw you right into an open world ready to be explored. That kept me playing and I purchased the game.
I don't want to pit Eschalon against Avadon but I wouldn't list writing as a strength of Eschalon. Spiderweb games also have quest choices that are orders of magnitude higher. Again, Jeff has previous seriously good RPGs and they have reasonably original settings that you might look into.

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May 4th, 2011, 16:14
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Played all of those many, many years ago. That doesn't help much now in terms of new experiences. If you're a new RPG player coming along, sure, go play Fallout long before you worry about Avadon. For me, well, I've replayed Fallout enough.
Oh I have played all those as well, I'm just saying a turn-based game does not earn my immediate praise by default. It has to be a good turn-based game and the demo of Avadon has not sold me on that yet.

I don't want to pit Eschalon against Avadon but I wouldn't list writing as a strength of Eschalon. Spiderweb games also have quest choices that are orders of magnitude higher. Again, Jeff has previous seriously good RPGs and they have reasonably original settings that you might look into.
Would one of his other series show a more unique world and better story right out of the gate in the demo? Maybe I should try a different series. I have not played any of his games before and was planning to start with Avadon, but the opening is just blandy bland bland for me.
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May 4th, 2011, 18:29
Originally Posted by DoctorNarrative View Post
Would one of his other series show a more unique world and better story right out of the gate in the demo? Maybe I should try a different series. I have not played any of his games before and was planning to start with Avadon, but the opening is just blandy bland bland for me.
You can always try the old titles.
If you like parties, try Avernum 6. If not you can try Geneforge 5.
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May 4th, 2011, 20:40
Bland and generic? Let see, so how you compare to your typical save the world RPG:
  • You have a roster of 4 companions, remind me, how many game implement relatively deep companions? That is generic? Lol.
  • There is no elves, no dwarves, no orcs, only that is quite rare.
  • You work for a tyrant, he isn't nor pure evil nor pure good, no clear evidence. Well I could remember wrong, but I don't remember much RPG the put the hero in the position of an official soldier of a tyrannic power.
  • You aren't a hero saving the world, you are a hand working for this tyrannic power, but there's the potential to try make fall the tyrant. almost all RPG put you in the savior of the world position and from the start.
  • You represent the power and have any right so anybody fear, not you, but the role you represent. And you have many opportunity to abuse of this, or not. RPG usually require you prove yoursel, not here it's your function/job.
  • You have full rights but if you displease the tyrant you could get a huge problem, well ok I got threatened only once, so this point is probably a bit fake until last parts of the RPG.
  • You are send to various official missions to do the dirty and hand work, but during mission you could choose do missions/quests on your own.
  • And all along the story evolution you discover you are in a huge underground shaking of the tyrannic power, no side telling you clearly the truth.

Find that generic and bland is pitiful.
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May 4th, 2011, 20:49
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post

I don't want to pit Eschalon against Avadon but I wouldn't list writing as a strength of Eschalon. Spiderweb games also have quest choices that are orders of magnitude higher. Again, Jeff has previous seriously good RPGs and they have reasonably original settings that you might look into.
It's clear Jeff write a lot better than those in Eschalon. That's terrible to even one second think it's the reverse. But yes, it's more diluted writing than in a Bioware or Obsidian, certainly much less time than a little army of writers working for a Bioware/Obsidian game and for sure when those writer teams succeed their writing job, it's not often Jeff could even compare a bit.

But again, during months, I have read ton of boring whiners posts about Bioware games but that's just fake and lies. Huge dungeons, complex maps, polished fights, and more, all of that isn't that important, the proof it means nothing for those whiners or most of them.
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May 4th, 2011, 20:55
Originally Posted by Von Paulus View Post
You can always try the old titles.
If you like parties, try Avernum 6. If not you can try Geneforge 5.
I haven't fully played Avernum 6 but a large part, a question have you played Avernum 1? It's easily the best of the series. But well my opinion is clearly doubtful for the RPG players, as for me and for now (not yet finished Avadon) I have changed my opinion and put now Avadon first, then Avernum 1 second, other are quite behind.
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