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June 13th, 2011, 18:40
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Since burden of proof would fall on the accuser (innocent until proven guilty…unless it's something you don't like, eh?), I think you're going to fall woefully short of being able to prove that the war was illegal.
This innocent until proven is about the question if a person has committed a crime. It is not about the question if a specific type of action is considered a crime or not. But besides that probably we have to agree to disagree.
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June 13th, 2011, 19:04
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Edit- To topic, Weiner is checking into rehab, but won't resign. In less reliable reports, tinfoilers say this is laying groundwork to use an ADA defence (sex addiction disability, or some such) to fight his ouster.
It's the new bit; "I'm not a creepy, narcissistic jerk, I have a "problem." I'll be all better once I get out of treatment, I promise."
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June 13th, 2011, 19:13
Well we can all agree that he DOES have a psychological issue, whatever you call it. And at least he realizes it and is trying to fix it. Unlike a lot of other psychotic politicians…
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June 13th, 2011, 19:36
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Well we can all agree that he DOES have a psychological issue, whatever you call it. And at least he realizes it and is trying to fix it. Unlike a lot of other psychotic politicians…
I would add the caveat, "because he got caught." It's not like he came to some level of self-realization and checked himself into treatment for sexual compulsion. He was, quite literally, caught with his pants down, and after a couple days worth of lying didn't work out for him, he threw everything into damage control mode. I know nothing about the man personally, so there's no way I would say for certain whether or not he's got a genuine problem.
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June 13th, 2011, 20:20
Rather than "get caught", it could be family/friend pressure. I'm not so ready to pass judgement, though lying is endemic to the profession…
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June 14th, 2011, 00:17
Hahaha…it's not passing judgement, it's realizing that politicians never do the right thing simply because it's right.
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June 14th, 2011, 00:23
"never"? Never say never.

There's that fatalistic tendency again. Sure you're not a conservative in liberal's clothing?
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June 14th, 2011, 00:40
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
"never"? Never say never.

There's that fatalistic tendency again. Sure you're not a conservative in liberal's clothing?
I will freely admit to being a liberal convert, coming from a very conservative upbringing. The cynicism is strong with this one.

I do my best to remain objective whenever I can. I am loyal to mainly progressive ideals, but there are quite a few things about Democrats, and liberals in general, that I don't particularly care for. I also respect and admire quite a few Republicans, and some of my fiscal viewpoints are decidedly conservative. I'm a mixed bag, and I'm not terribly hard to figure out; I'm just infuriatingly contrarian when you least expect it.
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June 14th, 2011, 00:46
Not sure what I'd call myself. Others have plenty of names for me, though.

Above all, I'd say practical and optimistic, something missing from both parties right now.
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June 14th, 2011, 01:17
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Not sure what I'd call myself. Others have plenty of names for me, though.
We try to avoid words like that in polite company.
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Above all, I'd say practical and optimistic, something missing from both parties right now.
I will genuinely give you "optimistic", with all the good and bad that entails.

@Capn- Social liberal, fiscal conservative… I'd consider calling you libertarian if not for their disappointing stance on the military clearly being a significant conflict. I can see why you're so eerie for me. You're me with a spoonful of compassion and some youthful idealism. There's definitely hope. To the dark side shall I bring you, young leftie.

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June 14th, 2011, 01:57
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
We try to avoid words like that in polite company.
I will genuinely give you "optimistic", with all the good and bad that entails.

@Capn- Social liberal, fiscal conservative… I'd consider calling you libertarian if not for their disappointing stance on the military clearly being a significant conflict. I can see why you're so eerie for me. You're me with a spoonful of compassion and some youthful idealism. There's definitely hope. To the dark side shall I bring you, young leftie.
You are more than welcome to try. Considering my resistance to the incessant preaching and rhetoric I hear from about 90% of my family, you've got your work cut out for you.
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June 16th, 2011, 16:46
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110616/…twitter_photos

Looks like Weiner is out. (Again, I suppose )

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June 16th, 2011, 17:17
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110616/…twitter_photos

Looks like Weiner is out. (Again, I suppose )
Ba-Dum-Bum…
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June 16th, 2011, 21:42
Yay! Now Congress can focus on creating all those jobs they promised… Oh, nevermind, protecting THEIR jobs is more important, and the public has the memory capacity of a gnat…
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June 17th, 2011, 15:30
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Yay! Now Congress can focus on creating all those jobs they promised… Oh, nevermind, protecting THEIR jobs is more important, and the public has the memory capacity of a gnat…
Speaking of which, if you want to see the Republican federal budget in a microcosm, all you have to do is look at the budget that is being passed in Wisconsin right now. Notice how all of the financial hardship is concentrated in the lower and middle classes, while the only hardship the upper class might have to endure is suffering their children to associate with poor kids on vouchers in their private schools. Now, thanks to the Republicans, our state is a veritable utopia, and our corporate masters will make life better for everyone, right?

They goddamned well better.
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June 17th, 2011, 16:42
He should do Howard Stern and I'm sure he'll make a comeback!
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June 17th, 2011, 17:38
Originally Posted by Captain Buzzkill View Post
Notice how all of the financial hardship is concentrated in the lower and middle classes, while the only hardship the upper class might have to endure is suffering their children to associate with poor kids on vouchers in their private schools.
Hyperbole aside, I see only 2 bullet points that fit into the class warfare umbrella at all, of over a dozen. Not like the entire plan is based on walking on the backs of the little people. Let's take a look at those points, shall we?

• Reduces income tax credits for poor families with two or more children by $56 million over two years, a move Democrats described as a tax increase.
Poor families don't pay taxes anyway under our progressive system. So really, this is an empty complaint. To make enough money to pay taxes which could then be offset with these credits, you're already beyond "poor". I'd be more concerned with the "funny accounting" where they're claiming $56M savings on something that never gets paid. So rather than misrepresent this under class warfare, you'd be much better off to run with a "cooking the books" accusation.

• Freezes household income levels to qualify for a homestead tax credit for poor home owners and renters, saving the state more than $13 million over two years.
Doesn't actually throw anybody off the rolls, merely reduces new enrollees. Seems like a reasonable way to reduce costs without screwing anybody over.

Am I missing something, because I just don't see much class warfare going on.

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June 17th, 2011, 19:27
When we look at the poor, we have to be careful how we define that. In Wisconsin, it's not just an arbitrary line based on income. This definition comes from the Wisconsin Poverty Report 2009.

"The WPM takes a broader view of resources than the official measure, incorporating not only pre-tax cash income, but also the estimated value of other federal and state resources to offset need. It also looks at expenses that reduce income that could be spent on food, housing, and other basic needs, such as child
care and transportation for going to work. The new WPM allows Wisconsinites to see how poverty is affected not only by federal programs but also by their own programs (e.g., the state Earned Income Tax Credit, BadgerCare health insurance, SNAP (FoodShare), Wisconsin Shares child care subsidies, and the Homestead Tax Credit). Our WPM incorporates many elements of the new Supplemental Poverty
Measure currently under development at the federal level, while also taking into account Wisconsin’s own policies and priorities and state-specific costs of living."

So, by this definition, there are a lot more people that could qualify as "poor," even though they have an income that would be above the poverty line. As a very specific, but common example; a family of 4 with one child that has special needs - such as a developmental disability or autism - may have expenditures that stress a budget that might be considered above the poverty line, and thus subject to state and federal taxes. These people are going to be severely hurt without these child tax credits. How high of a tax increase would that $56 million required? I have a good friend who works 70 hours a week for Habitat for Humanity: He and his wife live in a 1200sq ft house that they bought for $68,000, and she stays at home to raise their two boys, because any full-time job that she got wouldn't pay much more than the cost of child care, but it would bump them into a higher tax bracket, and it would require them to spend more money on gas and vehicle expenses. They rely on BadgerCare because Habitat isn't able to provide good health insurance, and now they're in danger of losing that under this budget. My Grandmother is 83 years old, and can't work because of crippling rheumatoid arthritis that has basically fused her knee joints. She's got high blood pressure and heart disease, and is under constant threat from blood clots. She lives in a tiny assisted-living facility with assistance from the state that keeps her out of a nursing home. Now, with the double-whammy of increased co-pays on her medication and treatment, along with the loss of money that helps keep her out of a nursing home (which is proven to lower your quality and length of life) she's under more stress, which is great for someone with a bad ticker. Are the corporate interests receiving tax breaks and incentives going to help her out?

We're bleeding people who cannot afford to lose the money in order to spare other people the inconvenience of having to skip a couple of date nights a month. Like I said before: I understand that we're going to have to sacrifice some in order to get our finances in order. We've effectively cut public workers' wages, along with eliminating their collective bargaining ability, we've stripped funding from our public schools (along with preventing districts from raising local taxes in order to soften the blow), and now we're passing a budget that places extra financial hardship on the people who are least equipped to handle it. HOW THE FUCK IS THE UPPER CLASS OR CORPORATE INTEREST SUFFERING RIGHT NOW? WHEN THE FUCK ARE THEY PLANNING TO PITCH IN AND HELP OUT? BEFORE OR AFTER MY GRANDMOTHER FUCKING DIES?
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June 17th, 2011, 20:18
You're clearly personally invested in this one, so it's probably best if I move along (that's not a swipe), but BadgerCare isn't mentioned even once in your article so I'm not sure if it's impacted at all and I'm certainly not sure how reading your source would inform me of the changes you're now claiming.

I will admit that I don't agree with the prohibition on local property tax increases to support schools. I don't see why a state legislature should dictate the financial priorities and remedies to communities. If people decide it's worthwhile to pay more in their district, that should be their choice. They pay the money, they get the direct result of the spending. Why should some drone in the state capitol care?

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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June 17th, 2011, 20:41
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
You're clearly personally invested in this one, so it's probably best if I move along (that's not a swipe), but BadgerCare isn't mentioned even once in your article so I'm not sure if it's impacted at all and I'm certainly not sure how reading your source would inform me of the changes you're now claiming.

I will admit that I don't agree with the prohibition on local property tax increases to support schools. I don't see why a state legislature should dictate the financial priorities and remedies to communities. If people decide it's worthwhile to pay more in their district, that should be their choice. They pay the money, they get the direct result of the spending. Why should some drone in the state capitol care?
I am personally invested in this, and you're right; BadgerCare isn't mentioned in this budget bill overview, but it's in another piece of legislation that will be taken up this summer, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out the Republicans' plan. The source I provided was simply so that you knew where I was getting the quote from; a courtesy. I'm not new to teh interwebz, and I know how annoying it is for people to provide quotes or "evidence" without qualifying it.

None of my…irritation, let's say, for the subject at hand, is directed at you, either. It's a frustrating situation for me, because all I see is a government that cares nothing for the vulnerable and needy in this state, with no plans to protect or maintain some of the best social services and education in the country, while they cut costs.
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