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Default Major Explosion in Oslo - Pm's office destroyed

July 24th, 2011, 20:01
Originally Posted by pibbur View Post
I think it's more serious than that. He may very well as he says (as I understand it)
He seems very proud of the fact he was a raid leader and his accomplishments there. A lot of his QA section seemed almost adolescence. I mean, not exactly political manifesto material. His first character was started in march 2006. His character was renamed to Conservatism february 09. Feedback from the people he played with say he was active atleast 3 years doing hardcore raiding for some time period up to january 2010, commenting when returning late 2010 "Dont think I will be raiding hardcore again, as then, I wont be able to stop". Not exactly the optimal thing to engage in when plotting to take over the world since 2000.

His manifesto is also largely just copy & paste from the internet, but edited. The document creation dates march 2011.

His financial problems seems to stem from around 2007-2008.

His farm was registered may 2009.

His commenting on document.no began september 2009.
Last edited by hishadow; July 24th, 2011 at 21:30.
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July 24th, 2011, 20:33
Originally Posted by akarthis View Post
So sad for these terrible news. My thoughts are with the victims families.

@Pibbur
You can be mad and calculating at the same time. You need a sick and mad mind to do these vile things
That depends a bit of what you mean by "mad". When I hear that word, I think "psychosis" (loss of contact with reality). You don't need to be psychotic to do things like these. You need a lack of empathy, which may be associated with psychosis, but is also a significant part of antisocial personality disorders (what we used to call psychopathy).

This may be just about the meaning of words, I suppose many use "mad" in a broader sense than I do, "mentally disturbed"?. I agree with you that you can be disturbed and calculating at the same time, and so I stand corrected.

@hishadow: You may very well be correct, what you say makes sense.

I just don't think we should underestimate him, and those like him - who he afaik hopes to inspire during his trial.

Says pibbur who thinks he may very well use the term "very well" too much.

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July 24th, 2011, 20:54
It's taken some time for me to process this terrible, terrible situation. My deepest condolences to Norge and I hope you make good on Stoltenberg's promise to counter this with more democracy, more openness!

Anders Behring Breivik really scares me though (he's definitely a terrorist BTW, being a white "lone wolf" doesn't automatically mean you aren't). It scares me that just one man with hatred and patience was able to do this, bypassing all the control mechanisms… It scares me that he was so calculating that he tried to eradicate the labour party's future, its youth… What kind of man does this?
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July 24th, 2011, 21:24
I am active in the Swedish Secular Humanists. I have been arguing for several years now that the greatest and most dangerous group in the Nordic countries aren't the Muslims or the Christians, but the nationalists. They are the the "Nordic Taliban".

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July 24th, 2011, 22:24
Our firms headquarters is in Oslo and many of our coworkers visit it regulary. Hope all is okay. Havent followed the news but whoever is behind this must be crazy.

Originally Posted by HiddenX View Post
What's wrong in our modern (Euro-) society?

Why is a young man murdering so many teenagers ?
To get attention ? Why didn't he simply spread flyers in Oslo ?

Why is a 27 year old singer dying in our middle ?
A woman who was on self destruction over years for everyone to see. Why can't public healthcare simply safe her ?

Why costs the visit of the pope in Germany 25 million Euros ?
Why do we invest billions of Euros to short term rescue of a non functioning Euro-system and at the same time Germany is giving only 14 millions to rescue people in East Africa ?

Why are child abusers getting free again and are not staying in preventive detention for their own good ?

… only a few questions out of the news of the last two weeks …

I simply have NO plausible explanations for these questions.
Kinda depressing the world today. And it doesnt seem to get better but worse. I doubt we will ever go back to the good old days. Perhaps this is the rumbling of change. World is changing to somthing new. Welcome globalization.

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July 24th, 2011, 22:36
Originally Posted by pibbur View Post
Maybe.

I think it's more serious than that. He may very well as he says (as I understand it)

- have been planning systematically this for years
- have managed to superficially appear as just another very right-wing person, thereby masking his real intentions
- really think that anyone supporting multiculturalism is a traitor and therefore must be eliminated, and that's just what he methodically did at Utøya.

I don't think he's mad. I think he's very calculating, and I think it could be very dangerous to not take him seriously.

I also think I may very well be wrong.
The manifesto is 1500 pages. If nothing else it took him a while to write that. Not that he necessarily had clear goals when he started.

He was certainly more meticulous (according to reports shooting the bodies in the head to make sure they were dead) than other shooters, and had learned about diversion from other terrorist acts. I fear that school shooters and terrorists alike may copy some of his tactics
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July 24th, 2011, 23:02
Originally Posted by Zaleukos View Post
I fear that school shooters and terrorists alike may copy some of his tactics
I don't think that there is anything new to learn from this guy if somewhere were to copy it. He is an unoriginal copycat of 3 US terrorist acts to me. Parts Oklahoma, Columbine and Unabomber. On one hand I wish he killed himself; on the other hand he cannot become a martyr of sorts. Some uncertainty will be removed because he can be interrogated and we can piece together what he was trying to achieve. If the media ignore him after this initial wave and Norway does not dwell on it, I think it would be most harmful thing that can be done back at him.
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July 25th, 2011, 05:36
The police disguise was original and quite innovative. The tendency for people to instantly trust law enforcement officials granted him access, provided him cover, and sealed the fate of many people who followed his directives.
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July 25th, 2011, 07:26
I was going to bring that up but al Qaeda/Taliban has used this technique quite a bit in past couple of years. But using it didn't quite fit with the US theme I had going. Yes its true that every case is unique and he pulled off an elaborate plan much better than I'd like to acknowledge.

As a side note, is it true that the max sentence for a crime is 21 years in Norway? I can understand no death penalty but there has to be something for egregious cases like this. Like 93 consecutive murder sentences plus who knows how many attempted murder. Or try him for at least 2 separate acts of terrorism? At least high security psychiatric care for life should be an option I hope. I heard that prosecutors can ask for extensions to the 21 years at 5 year increments.

I would like to think he could be reformed but really don't believe it. I'm sure he will be a model inmate for 21 years and tell the review board everything they want to hear when its time but I wouldn't believe a word of it not after how he planned this.
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July 25th, 2011, 08:55
Max sentence for a crime is 21 years. Recently the limit has been extended to 30 years for acts of terrorism, but this hasn't been implemented yet, and therefore cannot apply in this case. We don't have the option of consecutive murder sentences. I'm fine with these limits.

However, a person can in stead be sentenced to "forvaring" - don't now the exact English word: custody? Custody sentences have an initial limit of 21 years, but can be extended repeatedly 5 years at a time. This is for cases where there is a high risk that he/she will commit similar severe crimes again if released, usually based on a psychiatric evaluation. It's not used very often. Regular sentences cannot be extended in this way.

Based on what is known here and now, I would think he qualifies for custody.

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July 25th, 2011, 09:26
In Belgium the maximum sentence is 25 years I think, (no death penalty) but in Belgium they could have made every murder a separate kind of case, so he could have gotten 90*25 = 2250 years in jail if found guilty for each and if he had a very good lawyer he might have gotten away for each act as separate, meaning 2*25 years = 50.
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July 25th, 2011, 11:22
It seems important that something like this happens in a virtual paradise like Norway. I wonder if it's relevant to his motivation.
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July 25th, 2011, 11:57
Originally Posted by pibbur View Post
However, a person can in stead be sentenced to "forvaring" - don't now the exact English word: custody?
Storage is pretty accurate, I think.

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July 25th, 2011, 12:13
To prevent such incidents happen into the future islam must be banned in europe .
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July 25th, 2011, 12:20
Originally Posted by Tragos View Post
To prevent such incidents happen into the future islam must be banned in europe .
Awesome, intelligent post! That would surely assure peace an quiet for all! Thank you for sharing!!!
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July 25th, 2011, 12:24
I just wanted to point out that if he is considered mentally unstable, they can pretty much lock him up for life. This crime exceeds any crime in Norway since Quisling, and I honestly doubt they're going to simply let him walk away after 21 years.

@JemyM
I agree, and for a long time the extreme right wing nationalists were considered the most dangerous even by the general crowd. That opinion seems to have changed recently (mainly due to muslim terrorists), but there might be another shift now because of Breivik.
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July 25th, 2011, 12:50
Originally Posted by Tragos View Post
To prevent such incidents happen into the future islam must be banned in europe .
That someone is actually able to blame this on Islam is sickening.

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July 25th, 2011, 13:10
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
@JemyM
I agree, and for a long time the extreme right wing nationalists were considered the most dangerous even by the general crowd. That opinion seems to have changed recently (mainly due to muslim terrorists), but there might be another shift now because of Breivik.
To understand why an idea might be a catalyst, I think it's important to look whether or not the idea includes a "people".

There is a well-known bias called the actor-observer effect which can almost exclusively be blamed for this kind of reasoning, especially lethal when blended to a false-dichotomy. The Actor-Observer effect means the tendency to attribute our own behavior to external sources and others behavior to the person. The Actor-Observer effect can also be applied on a perceived group. Moral and positive behavior is attributed to the in-group, immoral and negative behavior is attributed to or blamed to external sources (the economy, the whether, a scapegoat etc). The out-group is attributed the other way around, good and moral acts in that group is attributed to external sources where as immoral and negative behavior is attributed to the group.

Now the idea about the "people" is in general a false dichotomy. That is, it promotes the view that there are two distinct groups who are different and stand against eachother. The people can be the French, the Christians, the Workers, the Men. Most of the lethal ideologies included a such dichotomy that created an artificial difference between a perceived ingroup and outgroup with negative consequences. Traditional nationalism is often discussed in relation to the country, with Germany during the 2nd World War. But the same idea of the "people" is just as expressed in branches of religion where as great importance is put on whether or not an individual subscribed to the religion or not. Communism didn't just include the dichotomy but the importance of creating the dichotomy for the ideology to succeed, so we have the Bourgeois and the Proletariat. Radical feminism depends on the idea about the Patriarchy.

In our time, one of the least questioned dichotomy is the one about the West and the East, now usually expressed as the Western Christian Democracies vs the Eastern Muslim Terror. There is a "clash of civilizations".

Many so-called westerners who worked in the middle-east have however pointed out that most of the disagreements within western politics is also present within eastern politics. There are feminist Muslims. There are democracy movements. There are scholars, freethinkers, human-rights activists and HBTQ movements working within what we commonly generalize as "the east". The debate and the challenges faced by these groups are pretty much identical to what was going on in the "west" 100 years ago.

Black & White thinking is notorious for not only creating a clear expressed dichotomy between one group and the other. They tend to place all criticism no matter the source to the out-group. A Norwegian who questions the nationalist movement is just another muslim or is muslim-friendly. Today we commonly see the expression "the cultural-marxists, the feminists, the left-wing, the politically correct" be used in the same sentence, often including homosexuals, the jews and the muslims. All of these are boiled down to the same group; "the enemy".

Personally I am commonly referred to as the "muslim" or said to have "Hostility against Sweden" by members of this reasoning.

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July 25th, 2011, 13:16
Originally Posted by figment View Post
As a side note, is it true that the max sentence for a crime is 21 years in Norway? I can understand no death penalty but there has to be something for egregious cases like this. Like 93 consecutive murder sentences plus who knows how many attempted murder. Or try him for at least 2 separate acts of terrorism? At least high security psychiatric care for life should be an option I hope. I heard that prosecutors can ask for extensions to the 21 years at 5 year increments.
There are issues with consecutive sentences (e g X number of thefts might add up to a stricter sentence than one murder), which is one reason that Norway doesnt use that.

Mental cases can be locked up indefinitely (but may also be released early if deemed reformed). Whether he gets that or 21 years probably depends on the psych evaluation.

Originally Posted by figment View Post
I don't think that there is anything new to learn from this guy if somewhere were to copy it. He is an unoriginal copycat of 3 US terrorist acts to me. Parts Oklahoma, Columbine and Unabomber.
The individual parts werent innovative (if thorough), but combining old techniques in an efficient way was innovative Picking a new type of soft target was also an innovation as far as terrorism in the west goes. I could imagine this act inspiring islamists getting the inspiration to go after bible camps or similar targets.
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July 25th, 2011, 14:29
This has happen before , to a smaller scale yes but it isn't new .
Uncontrolled immigration has filled the extreme right with numerous new recruits who are already mental cases , the chances that some of them will go totally apeshit are slim yet they exist and such events sorry but they have to be expected.

Analysis is okay but i think you are missing the cause and effect point here , if the feeding tube of neonazis is not cut things will get very bad , do not forget that nationalists are already inhabiting our parliaments and their strength is growing.

Originally Posted by Myrthos View Post
That someone is actually able to blame this on Islam is sickening.
You will be much more sick if you take a tour in nationalist forums and see the support this guy is getting , posting condemnation manifests while keep on feeding the beast will only end when the beast eat us all.
I knew that my previous post will insult your democratic feelings but i prefer drastic measures like removing the cause to kill the effect rather than education and tolerance legislation since we all know that it leads nowhere .
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