Major Explosion in Oslo - Pm's office destroyed

Originally Posted by JDR13
Well it seems like Glenn Beck has managed to thoroughly embarrass himself with a completely obtuse comment on the situation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43895169?GT1=43001

I enjoy Beck for political entertainment, but that's just plain stupid. Factually inaccurate, not remotely funny, and unlikely to "score political points". Dumb.

It's not like the US doesn't have political youth groups as well. Young Republicans, anyone? I'm sure the dems have a similar program. Not sure that those groups have camps, but they do have national conventions, which is close enough.

edit- turns out there IS a Young Democrats and they're having their national convention in Louisville starting tomorrow. I can feel money being taxed out of my wallet from here…

How does political youth camps differ i.e from religous youth camps?

Theres nothing special about parents sendings their kids to camps that teach things that the parents consider important. Even then it doesnt mean that the kids actually take up on what is teached because there is some tendency for youths especially teenagers to question and rebel against their parents.

Originally Posted by pibbur
If he's sentenced to prison he'll get 21 years (30 years if a newly added paragraph for crime against humanity can be applied.)

He can in stead be sentenced to custody for up to 21 years, if he's considered a significant risk to society. This can be extended for 5 years at a time, depending on whether he's still considered a risk or not. The seriousness of the crime is not considered, only his danger to society.

The new paragraph doesn't seem to have forvaring included. A sentence of 21 years with forvaring would in effect mean a life sentence for him. No evaluation could ever deem him fit for release. It all depends though on what the evaluation done by psychiatrists show.

Let me start by offering my heartfelt sympathies with the Norwegian people in this time of sorrow.

Originally Posted by dteowner
I always knew you lefties were nuckin' futz.

One aspect of this that interests me is how the Enlightened Euro opinions on crime and punishment are going to hold up. There was an article that popped up very briefly on the AP about Norway's judicial already having to defend the 21 year thing. That article has since disappeared and I was unable to find it again. Closest I got was this:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/no…192223814.html

There's always been that snooty condescending attitude about America's "uncivilized" approach to punishing criminals, and I'm very interested to see how it plays out now that the blood is on Euro soil. Euro user comments on various articles I've read have been downright vengeful (not that I have a problem with that). It will be very interesting to see how the "enlightened" theories hold up when they get bumped against a gruesome reality.

I really don't think that this will change our attitudes towards crime and punishment a whole lot, once people get a little distance to this they'll realize that harsher punishment probably wouldn't have deterred this maniac from committing this heinous deed. And as has already been pointed out we have mechanisms in play that allow us to more or less lock people like this up and throw away the key. Forvaring in Norway or criminal psychiatric care in Sweden which usually translates into a longer incarceration than what would have been the case if the person would have been given the max sentence for the crime in regular prison (don't know the last statement holds up in Norway but it wouldn't surprise me if it was the same there, our socities are very similar after all).

Originally Posted by dteowner
Ah, but Euro prisons are rehabilitating country clubs according to y'all. How could there be prison violence like that in the middle of all that enlightenment?

Not quite, much like in the US a perpetrator gets put in a different prison depending on what crime they've committed. Our low security prisons aren't very harsh (according to a guy I know who got a one year stint for distributing alcohol to minors), but they don't hold a lot of dangerous people. Higher security prisons are worse if nothing else by merit of the people incarcerated there, being locked up with a bunch of violent offenders is never going to be very nice even if prison officials try to mitigate circumstances. But I doubt that Breivik would be locked up with the general population, most likely he'd be put in a ward with sexual offenders and others who have committed acts that make locking them up with "regular" criminals deemed to be too much of risk to their wellbeing.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Well it seems like Glenn Beck has managed to thoroughly embarrass himself with a completely obtuse comment on the situation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43895169?GT1=43001

In all honesty I find his Hitler Jugend likening to be a lot less disturbing than what he goes on to say later on (about five minutes in) in that excerpt.

Sorry about the tangents, I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion about European penal practices or Glenn Becks tenuous grasp of logic, facts and reality.

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
/de-lurk

In case you're interested, here's the Europol statistics about attempted or successful terrorist attacks in Europe in 2010.

The most relevant statistic is probably this one:

Islamist: 3
Separatist: 160
Left-wing: 45
Right-wing: 0
Single-issue: 1
Not specified: 40
Total: 249

/re-lurk

Some more info from the link provided. Even though the islamists numbers are small teh article PJ provided says this:

Key Judgments

The threat of attacks by Islamist terrorists in the
EU remains high and diverse.

In the past year, several EU Member States have
successfully prevented attacks by Islamist terrorist
groups, which aimed to cause mass casualties. During
2010, 179 individuals were arrested for offences
linked to Islamist terrorism, representing a 50% increase
compared with 2009. Furthermore a higher
proportion of those arrests related to the preparation
of attacks in the EU (47% compared with 10%
in 2009).

Still I have to say Im not worried at all about terrorism in nordic countries or europe in general.

The reason we've moved away from the death penalty, is largely because we've learned that the immediate emotional reaction isn't always the right one.

I think it's well documented that revenge and murder don't bring back the dead - and it doesn't really alleviate the pain. There is a kind of pain that can't be remedied - and the only thing one can hope for is a measure of understanding.

Understanding motives and actions can lead to a kind of peace - but it's futile to expect a cure for the damage caused.

There's a lack of power there that we must accept, or we will let anger turn irrational because we can't find a beneficial outlet.

If we start killing criminals they might not surrender peacefully but instead fight to death causing more casualties. In Finland many of those who do bad things report themselves to the police because they know they wont be harmed.

Originally Posted by dteowner
There's always been that snooty condescending attitude about America's "uncivilized" approach to punishing criminals, and I'm very interested to see how it plays out now that the blood is on Euro soil. Euro user comments on various articles I've read have been downright vengeful (not that I have a problem with that). It will be very interesting to see how the "enlightened" theories hold up when they get bumped against a gruesome reality.

There is a big difference between wanting something to happen, and then going through with it.

If our system of justice isn't proof enough of how we differ from you - then I don't see what will be.

I'm sure you're salivating at the thought of human beings being human - but it doesn't mean we have to act like morons like you choose to do.

We all desire revenge and we all harbor desires to hurt and lash out. We don't all act on it, though.

Originally Posted by zakhal
In Finland many of those who do bad things report themselves to the police because they know they wont be harmed.

I'm pretty sure criminals in most civilized countries know they're not going to be harmed by police if they turn themselves in.

Unless you're simply referring to the death penalty, in which case I don't think many of those kinds of criminals would turn themselves in anyways.

Well, the problem with our system is that the criminals we have are mostly the same, very few come out from prison and stop committing crimes, so I would say the system is a failure. I would like to see some kind of system where you try your best to rehabilitate people, than put them on the radar after they are free and if they commit another serious crime they'd get a much longer punishment.

Originally Posted by GothicGothicness
Well, the problem with our system is that the criminals we have are mostly the same, very few come out from prison and stop committing crimes, so I would say the system is a failure. I would like to see some kind of system where you try your best to rehabilitate people, than put them on the radar after they are free and if they commit another serious crime they'd get a much longer punishment.

Oh, we have many problems with our system - but I don't think many of us really want to re-introduce barbarism.

Originally Posted by JDR13
I'm pretty sure criminals in most civilized countries know they're not going to be harmed by police if they turn themselves in.

Unless you're simply referring to the death penalty, in which case I don't think many of those kinds of criminals would turn themselves in anyways.

Its three things. No death penalty, decent prisons (not overcrowded like in say california?) and relatively short jailtimes. And yes even murderers do turn themselves in (some commit suicide though). Not all of course but enough that it was mentioned in one news article specifically.

Originally Posted by zakhal
Its three things. No death penalty, decent prisons (not overcrowded like in say california?) and relatively short jailtimes.

There's probably some truth to that, but unfortunately it's also very possible that those things contribute to the problem GG mentioned above.

Well, sometimes I wounder if it is more humane to keep someone locked in there entire life?

Originally Posted by GothicGothicness
Well, sometimes I wounder if it is more humane to keep someone locked in there entire life?

Any system is subject to the individual - and we can never know what's impossible to know.

These things will invariably differ from one person to the next. Some might never need any incentive to rehabilitate themselves and others might not change regardless of the incentive.

We can never - ever - make a system that will be able to predict something like that.

I have my own idea of the way we should go about these things, but I'm pretty sure the world is not going to be ready for that in many hundreds of years.

Originally Posted by GothicGothicness
Well, the problem with our system is that the criminals we have are mostly the same, very few come out from prison and stop committing crimes, so I would say the system is a failure. I would like to see some kind of system where you try your best to rehabilitate people, than put them on the radar after they are free and if they commit another serious crime they'd get a much longer punishment.

Any statistics supporting that? Official criminal statistics for Norway show around 45% commit crimes again in Norway in the period 2000-2005, half of them within the first 2 years. BTW, repeated crimes result in longer sentences.

Could of course be that Swedes are much more criminal than Norwegians, no surprise.

There are also different individuals.

* Those who have a strong idealistic view of the person they wish to be.
* Those who go to great length of avoiding getting shunned by their community (even being called a thief is a great distress for these).
* Those who calculate risk vs reward.
* Those who's worldview doesn't even include the legal system.

The pure idealists are probably rare, but these are the people who judge themselves more than others, who try to follow a certain codex and a consistent moral system. Now this codex might be completely opposite to the law and they might even fight the law, but their behavior is still consistent at all times due to their internal system. These are also the people who deem the justice system as necessary even when it's wrong. These people might end up as Moral Professors, Religious Leaders or founders of Extremist movements.

For most people, the thought of losing their social group is unthinkable, even when calculating Risk vs Reward there is no "Do Evil Deed X, Earn Cash or Jail", rather it's "Do Evil Deed X, Earn Cash or Lose Friends/Family". For these people even mild punishment (getting pointed at in public) is enough to avoid the deed. These people probably had a very good relationship to their social surroundings in the first place, people caring for them, people they care about.

Then there are those who are too irrational or stupid to see the relation between their own actions and their social resources, completely lacks social resources (have no friends/family to lose), have some disorder do not see the need for social resources or who's experience with other people are so bad that their mind simply say "f-them". These people may probably calculate Risk vs Reward in Potential Punishment vs Potential Material Gain.

Finally there are the group who are so irrational and completely void of reasoning that they do not live in the same universe. They have no relationship at all with the society around them and they do not care for it at all, or their irrational emotions drives push them around. Here we have drug addicts, people with strong disorders, very aggressive people etc.

The opinions of Fjordman seems to resonate quite well with the killer. Sry, only norwegian text in that link. He's blaming the multicultural-elite, and Labour Party in particular for Norway, for the demise of Europe from its immigration policies. He even goes so far as to call it a conspiracy enacted by the multicultural elite to dilute the white population, and create a new world order. That is maybe tied in with his discussions about IQ, where the general population average IQ is reduced, hence easier to control. There is also mention about oppression in relation to freedom of press on these issues.

Aside, I've been trying to dig up Fjordmans identity but he seems to be hiding quite well (maybe one of these). Edward May (retired IT guy who runs Gates of Vienna) seems to be his main outlet, and he seems to have quite a crowd on the threat of islam from within among ultra-right wing organisations in Scandinavia, Europe, all the way over to the US through the tea party organization.

Also, a member of a French ultra-right wing party hailed the killer. Can you believe it!?!

Any statistics supporting that? Official criminal statistics for Norway show around 45% commit crimes again in Norway in the period 2000-2005, half of them within the first 2 years. BTW, repeated crimes result in longer sentences.

Could of course be that Swedes are much more criminal than Norwegians, no surprise.

Here it is 70%, I guess Norwegians are doing things better. You do have a much lower crime rate.

Could of course also be due to all the good Swedes moving here for work.

We know already that most americans are rightwinged rednecked teadrinking criminals. (IT'S A JOKE!!!) Now the only remaining question is: What about Denmark?

Says Pibbur who, sitting around the campfire, from now on won't talk about how much better Enlightened Norway is than everywhere else.