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Default The Totally NEW Team Corwin Thread

December 7th, 2011, 03:37
The sequence and enhancements and feats can be changed to taste, of course. Also the skills can be altered a bit so maybe some less on sneak and more on balance. They recommend getting a high diplomacy so you can lose aggro and get sneak attack back.

I think CM likes very much to be part of the action and not just a trap-monkey. With the assassin build she can do great DPS and still deal with traps, locks and whatever.

She will need to get good gear for her skills, but that should certainly be possible since we play as a group and can forward what we find to her.

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Last edited by Peter Stauffenberg; December 7th, 2011 at 04:07.
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December 7th, 2011, 03:49
Code:
Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Testovina 
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 272
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 16
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             15                    22
Dexterity            17                    19
Constitution         15                    18
Intelligence         13                    17
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    28
Bluff                 3                    30
Concentration         2                     5
Diplomacy            -1                     1
Disable Device        5                    27
Haggle                2                    24
Heal                 -1                     1
Hide                  7                    36
Intimidate           -1                     1
Jump                  2                     7
Listen               -1                    13
Move Silently         7                    36
Open Lock             7                    28
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                1                     4
Search                5                    27
Spot                  3                    24
Swim                  2                     7
Tumble                4                     6
Use Magic Device      3                    24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Defensive Roll


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Deadly Shadow
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense II
This is a quickie Assassin build.

1 - Traps and locks: Fireflash proved that you do not need an exceptionally high INT, nor mechanic rogue, to handle traps. It is mostly a function of gear and maxing the appropriate skills. Spot, Search, and Disable. So as long as you have level-appropriate gear (+15 can be gotten on ML13 items) you will be fine. Locks are even more easily handled; with only 4 ranks Fireflash was handling locks in Shavarath (L19) and House C Manufactury (L20) quests. Gear was only a +15 item.

2 - This build is focused on DPS. Assassin gives 3d6 additional SA damage, SA training giving another 9, and the capstone 4d6 SA damage. 7D6+9 is a ton of damage. That's why I also picked Opportunist, as it allows you to ignore 10% fortification (and 3% chance of a doublestrike is also nice). Khopeshes are proven to be highest dps TWF.

3 - Tomes are included, but I made sure there's enough DEX to qualify for ITWF and GTWF without. If you have/will buy a +2 DEX tome, drop DEX to 15 instead, and put the 5 build points into STR and CON.

4 - Skills just max out Search, Disable, Spot, and UMD. After that it's really up to you. I recommend Balance though. Jump shouldn't be an issue with a Ranger and a Wizard having the spell available at level 1. Bluff can give you SA damage, so I recommend it as well.

5 - Assassin gives you a perm Vorpal effect on tier 3; on a 20 you insta-kill anything with less than 1000hp. Tier 2 gives you the assassinate ability, which also is a targeted insta-kill. After witnessing a Rogue basically solo 'Let Sleeping Dust Lie' by assassinating every ogre, I was impressed.

6 - HP will be 272 + 60 (+6 CON item) +20 (toughness item) + 30 (Greater False Life item) + 10 (Argonessan Favor) +45 (GS HP item) = 437 at cap. With Improved Evasion.

7 - UMD = 23 + 2 (+6 CHA item, assuming no tome) + 1 (skill mastery) +3 (golden cartouche) + 4 (Greater Heroism) +1 (Voice of the Master) = 35. Enough for reliable raising of the dead, and semi-reliable Heal scrolls (about 75%).

8 - You can easily drop Khopeshes for something else if you want; Skill Focus UMD would push you to 38 UMD for example; which would be nearly no-fail heal scrolls (and without a GS skills item. That would push you to no-fail Greater Teleport and Ressurection scrolls). Toughness would add 22hp, etc etc… Oversized TWF may be dropped if you remain in SA mode and flanking constantly, I took it assuming you'd lack the gear to offset the penalty. Since SA damage is your main dps, and when you lose it, you'd lose the advantages of the Khopesh (obscene crits), rapiers would be fine and not cost you a feat.

9 - STR with tome would end up about 28 unbuffed; 32 with ship and rage. Low, so try to flank enemies and let Peter or Corwin grab aggro first.

It was the night before Hogswatch…

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December 7th, 2011, 04:08
Two things to note about the build differences; STR vs DEX based.

I prefer STR for a few simple reasons. This is also why finesse builds are not considered the best for the game. If you don't believe me, ask around on the DDO forums. Even most Arty ranged builds just take enough DEX for ranged feats, and pump INT. Insightful Strikes keeps the to-hit up.

1 - More means to raise STR. Rage spell, Madstone Boots, Bloodrage item, Titan's Grip, etc can push your STR up well past DEX. DEX has nothing to boost it, period.

2 - STR adds to-hit and damage. DEX only to-hit on a finesse build. This means by focusing on DEX, you lose damage.

3 - High STR builds are more versatile in weapon choice. Ultimately, the only finesse weapon you'll want is Rapiers. STR builds can take the more powerful Khopesh, or pretty much any damn thing they please. There are Two-handed fighting builds out there for Rogues (non-Acrobat).

4 - To even use DEX for to-hit, you either have to go Ranged, or burn a feat. STR requires nothing.

While Jm swears by DEX, the fact is DDO is not NWN, and not 3.5e. DEX is practically a dump-stat. You take the needed amount to fit in the TWF feats, and that's it. On Fireflash's Ranger build, I took only 13 as I needed that much for Dodge (pre-req for Tempest). Her Bard build is rocking a mid-30's reflex save with a 8 base DEX. And I was able to open locks with 4 points into the skill, 13 base DEX, no DEX item, and a +15 OL gloves. I struggled earlier, but I never had level-appropriate gear to handle locks; only a +7 item that I used well into the late game. Once I grabbed a decent item, I had no more issues.

Between the two builds, mine has 60 more hp, higher general dps, higher to-hit, and more capability to change feats out for either hp, dps, or utility. Peter's has +1 UMD.

Power attack is debatable; already suffering a 3/4 BaB, and a -4/-4 for oversized TWF, tacking on an additional -5 to me is getting a bit difficult to offset. Which is why I didn't take it. It can fit, easily, but I don't know that 5 damage on the mainhand is offsetting missing 25% more often.

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December 7th, 2011, 04:59
Originally Posted by Cm View Post
Ok Dte, if I catch you in game I can take a look. Going to look at wiki for it now and see if that makes sense to me. lol
Somehow, I've managed to delete my planner file for RhoGu. Perfect. I've got a printout, though. My build is going to be a little different from most rogues because I didn't do much with sneak attack. Not a good decision from a min/max perspective, but RhoGu was designed to solo, never use the sneak button, and to be a front line melee type, all of which mean he'll keep aggro and sneak attack will be useless. If you're building to run with a party, sneak attack is much more valuable, although you won't be able to "wade in" without begging someone else to take aggro like jm always did. To my mind, that decision boils down to how you intend to play the toon. I also shifted the order of my enhancements a little from the plan, but you'll want to personalize those anyway so I'll just show the plan as,ummmm, planned.

Dwarf, 32pt build
STR16, DEX16, CON17, INT12, WIS8, CHR6
no tomes planned, although he's used a few he got in-game
skills: balance, disable device, haggle, jump, open lock, search, spot, UMD except fighter levels, then jump and swim, and 4 points in tumble at lvl1

lvl1 rogue
feat- two weapon fighting
enhance- rogue haste boost, dwarven axe damage, improved disable device

lvl2 fighter
feat- oversized two weapon fighting
enhance- rogue damage boost, fighter critical accuracy

lvl3 fighter
feat- toughness, weapon focus: slashing
enhance- dwarf CON, racial toughness, fighter STR, fighter toughness

lvl4 rogue
ability: DEX+1
enhance- dwarven axe attack, rogue DEX

lvl5 rogue
enhance- rogue wrack construct, rogue item defense

lvl6 rogue
feat- toughness
enhance- rogue damage boost2, rogue haste boost2, improved disable device2

lvl7 rogue
enhance- dwarven axe damage2

lvl8 rogue
ability: STR+1
enhance- dwarf CON2

lvl9 rogue
feat- improved two weapon fighting
enhance- rogue haste boost3, racial toughness2

lvl10 rogue
enhance- dwarven axe attack2

lvl11 rogue
enhance- racial toughness3

lvl12 rogue
ability: STR+1
feat- improved critical: slashing, improved evasion
enhance- rogue haste boost4

lvl13 rogue
enhance- wrack construct2, rogue item defense2

lvl14 rogue
enhance- rogue DEX2

lvl15 rogue
feat- greater two weapon fighting, skill mastery
enhance- racial toughness4

lvl16 rogue
ability: STR+1
(bank action points)

lvl17 rogue
enhance- rgoue DEX3, rogue damage boost3

lvl18 rogue
feat- toughness, defensive roll
enhance- rogue damage boost4

lvl19 rogue
enhance- rogue item defense3

lvl20 rogue
ability: STR+1
enhance- sneak attack training1, 2, and 3

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Last edited by dteowner; December 7th, 2011 at 05:12.
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December 7th, 2011, 05:03
I agree with much you say and I just followed a build by an expert rogue guy. For dps I guess a str build is better. Don't you need dex for many skills?

This is a moot point since Cm has already created her rogue at level 1 so it will be the enhancements and feats she will select now. The attributes advances are pretty much set unless she got both str and dex to a pretty decent level.

Power attack for a dex based toon with weapon finesse is probably not so bad because you get so much bonus to hit from the very high dex that it will offset the -5 to hit from power attack. The +5 dmg from power attack is equal to having to boost the strength by 10.

The boosts like rage will still help on the damage if you have a dex build.

The main benefit I see from a str build is that you don't need a feat for power attack and can instead pick a khopesh. I'm not sure how much the skills with suffer from having less dex.

Cm can expect to get tomes from quests and if we get a +2 dex tome we can pass it along to her.

I don't know how high the skills will have to be to deal with the quests we're doing. I expect us to play many of them on elite (or at least hard) since we're all TR'ed and can take the challenge. That means the difficulty for spotting and disabling traps will be higher. With GH and great gear I think even elite difficulty can work well.

So it might be that a str build will give enough skill points for the important rogue skills. I think it's certainly possible to try and just reset the enhancements if it didn't work out as expected. Changing attribute increases can be more challenging, though.

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December 7th, 2011, 05:08
One thing for Cm to remember is that my paladin is specced to be a defender of Siberys intimitank. He's specifically built to attract aggro. If Cm's rogue puts skill points in diplomacy and gets the subtle backstabbing enhancements she can expect to more easily lose aggro if she gets it.

I can use intimidate to gain aggro and I get enhancements to boost the intimidate even further. So there is a big chance Cm will be able to get in numerous sneak attacks when we're in the guild group. I therefore think she should build a rogue that can take advantage of maximizing sneak attacks.

Before we didn't have melee characters with decent intimidate so the rogue or casters ended up with aggro. We're changing this now by building our toons for being in the same group all the time and not for soloing or pugging.

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Last edited by Peter Stauffenberg; December 7th, 2011 at 05:19.
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December 7th, 2011, 05:16
I think our group will actually become quite powerful. We have the following.

1. Paladin with a lot of hp who probably can keep aggro
2. Favored soul who can do caster damage, but also heal
3. Wizard who will have the spells we need for both damage and buffs
4. Bard for nice buffs, crowd control and also melee damage
5. Ranger for ranged attacks, buffs and even melee
6. Rogue for traps, locks and sneak attacks

The only thing we will miss is the versatility of a cleric. We will have slightly fewer buffs, but it will be offset by the wizard and bard/ranger. We won't have great turn undead capability, but the paladin can do some. Mainly we will miss the cleric radiant aura so we will have to depend on potions for remove disease, remove curse, neutralize poison, restoration etc. Eventually the favored soul can deal with some of these and the paladin can deal with remove disease.

In some quests we might want to have 2 melee characters with very high dps. I think both the ranger and bard can be helpful there. We only have 1 healer type and that means we might rely more upon healing potions, but the paladin, bard and ranger can all do minor healing. So I think we should do fine.

The favored soul is much better than the cleric for offensive casting (if built for it). That means we have 2 characters (wizard and fvs) who can dot boss monsters and do area of effect damage as well. Crowd control should be pretty good as well with the wizard versatility and the bard abilities.

It will be interesting to see how our group will perform when we meet together. I have a feeling we can breeze through hard and elite will become the normal challenge for us if at level or higher for the quest. if we can do all quests at hard or elite we will keep our bravery streak.

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December 7th, 2011, 05:26
From the article about rogues I linked to I found the following about diplomacy vs bluff:

5a. Even with good threat reduction, you're going to find yourself gaining aggro periodically.

When that happens, a good diplomacy skill is very helpful to any rogue. Again, rogues get a ton of skill points and this is a good place to use them. I often read that rogues are debating taking Diplomacy versus Bluff. It's not even close. Bluff is a very flawed skill and doesn't work nearly as well as advertised (it may actually decrease DPS) and Diplomacy works extremely well. It also uses the same stat (charisma) as UMD so you can get a very high skill with little effort.

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December 7th, 2011, 05:26
Originally Posted by Peter Stauffenberg View Post
Mainly we will miss the cleric radiant aura so we will have to depend on potions for remove disease, remove curse, neutralize poison, restoration etc. Eventually the favored soul can deal with some of these and the paladin can deal with remove disease.
The ranger gets several of those spells. I think the bard does, as well. It probably still makes sense to stock up on pots, but we're not locked in.

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December 7th, 2011, 09:59
Peter, you did not quite grasp what I was saying. STR gives to-hit AND damage. Finesse only gives to-hit from DEX. Meaning that focusing on DEX will result in a lower to-hit and damage total. So a STR based build would be better served with PA, and be better able to handle the to-hit penalty, than the DEX based one. I just don't think 5 damage is worth it on a feat-starved, 3/4 BaB class, particularly one that may lose far more from missing than it gains.

You cannot put more than 4 points into a skill at level 1, 1 per level after that. A Rogue has more than enough skill points to max out Search, Disable, UMD, and Spot. I ended up with more than I knew what to do with. Heck, a Ranger Exploiter build is based on the fact that they get enough skill points to max out UMD and Disable on top of Search and Spot.

She needs a +2 DEX tome by 9 if she wants to take ITWF, which requires 17 DEX. This is if she dropped DEX to 15 to start. Any later, and you risk running out of feats.

The critical skills for a Rogue are Disable and Search. Too low a disable will result in a blown box. Too low search will result in no box found. Both use INT. Spot is necessary since none of us have every quest memorized, and uses WIS. Only Open Lock needs DEX, and as I pointed out and proved with Fireflash's exploiter life, can be left with 4 points and just an item and still handle locks.

Also, when was that article written? Bluff was changed fairly recently, before it did nothing. Now it literally gives you SA damage on success. You have to be careful when using even official sources of info, as they can easily be out of date. Even some of the loading screens have wrong info; Paralyzing has not given auto-crit since we started, and auto-crit was taken out of the game entirely in Update 9.

I will not be taking spells for things easily taken care of with potions. We're not just starting out here; all of us can afford to keep a stack of neutralize poison, cure disease, remove curse, remove blindness, and even lesser restoration pots on hand. Brialle really does not have the spell slots to waste on them either, and her sp is better used for either crowd control or killing things, not curing things that can be taken care of by 10c pots. That leaves peter and corwin, and in both cases, they will only have a few spell slots to speak of.

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December 7th, 2011, 19:38
Tell me if I should keep low-level items for you. I don't know how much you need them, but can always ask.

If my software and therefore the items descrtiptions as well weren't in my own language, then I'd just post a list here.

Besides - any idea where I can get *thick* belts from ? (Wanna use 'em for crafting.)

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December 7th, 2011, 21:37
I wouldn't bother, Alrik. Since we're all TRs, we keep the platinum that we had at level 20. If there's any gear we want/need, we'll have no trouble buying it off the Auction House once we leave Korthos. The unusual (named) items that aren't available on the AH aren't there because they're bound to account/character, which means you couldn't pass them along even if you had them.

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December 7th, 2011, 23:04
Okay, thanks.

3 tiny points by me :

- there is currently a discoiunt on hireling papers folders
- from a chest at Misery Peak I received 3 "festival coins". I think there was a mention of a (the ?) festival in the notes on the newest update …
- the DDO client crashed when I did a right-click somewhere in the built-in browser ("myddo")

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December 8th, 2011, 00:21
Solo Korthos on hard with a wizzy… Fucking brilliant idea. I didn't have to leave Phuury on the shelf for a week and a half to die alone.

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December 8th, 2011, 01:57
We did offer to help!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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December 8th, 2011, 10:51
Notes on Uptade 12 Patch 1 :

Combat

Fixed a bug that was causing stealthed monsters to be visible, but untargetable.
Weeelll … In my case, this works mostly - but yesterday I had an Ice Spider in Misery's Peak which I couldn't fight at all !

Usually, even if I can't target Ice Spiders, I can destroy them by hitting tht "u" key for both close-range and far-range weapons (two-handed sword and a bow in my case).

But yesterday I met an Ice Spider were nothing of both worked ! My problem was, that even although this Ice Spider attacked me, the hero I played did not do any combat animations ! I resolved this case by using a helmet that contains a spell called "Ray of Enfeeblement" according to a translation list I found; that destroyed the already weakened (armor of acid protection or how it is called) Ice Spider completely !

That list is here, by the way : http://forum.dnd-gate.de/index.php?topic=18473.0
You can see there how Spell names have been translated - just in case you want to chat with me.

Anyway, that bug is fixed - to the greatest part. With this particular exception.

By the way, I'm collecting even more "Festivult" coins, too !
Where is the dungeon with the highest number of chests ?

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December 8th, 2011, 18:45
Thanks for build list Dte, I think I am almost on mark. ( Will log and and look) One good thing is I did have a few tomes stached back but I will wait and use them once I see where and what compared to your list. Going to try and hit level 2 this pm…so if you can log in we can run them together if you still need to. Not that I would be much help but we can grab a cleric and a fighter and should be ok. lol

Bart and Corwin should just admit that when it gets down to it, I will have the final say.
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December 8th, 2011, 19:07
Let me know when and I'll hop in as well and lend a hand. The three of us should be able to run the village quests on elite easily, and get the explorers. If Jo can show we definitely can.

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December 8th, 2011, 19:25
Looks like Dte made level 2 so I will go ahead and finish off explores, slayers or one more of the short quests in there, that should get me my level if I can keep doing them all on hard.

Bart and Corwin should just admit that when it gets down to it, I will have the final say.
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December 8th, 2011, 20:27
I probably won't be on tonight, sorry. Had to get a hireling just to survive, but got to the new designated stopping point:
inside quests completed on hard
explorers done
no attempts on outside quests

As for tomes, I highly recommend hitting the auction house regularly and putting down bids/buys. Occasionally, someone will put one up with a silly-low buyout price which you can snap up immediately. I also put in lots of bids on tomes with low "starting bid" values. Most of the time, you'll get outbid, but that's really not a big deal. You can re-bid to a point, the main thing is not to get caught up in a bidding war—walk away once a +1 tome gets above 10k plat. I've noticed the prices on tomes have come down recently. Used to be that a +1 went for 50k and a +2 went for 300k. Now it seems closer to 30k and 250k respectively. I nabbed a +2DEX tome for 30k a month or so ago by being in the right place at the right time. I think the seller just typo'd when he meant 300k, but I bought it before he could fix the price.

edit- from previous posts here, I believe the Friday plan is for the group to run inside quests on elite, then outside quests on elite (without ever running them on hard), probably with some slayer/rare thrown in, and wrap up with Misery Peak.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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