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December 29th, 2011, 13:35
crpgnut…I'm…overwhelmed. I don't know if the irony is greater from what you said you think or what you think you mean. Know what I mean?

Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
Ken Rolston said it well. He said video games as a platform are more like a sonnet, rather than a novel. ……… But you get the idea.
So you read a lot of books, which you use as a qualifier to criticize others who take writing too seriously in games. Basically your saying, you ate a bunch of roses and now your farts are of rosey sonnets?

Trust me, most of the names I have been called you can't translate in any language…they're not even real words as much as a succession of violent images.
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December 29th, 2011, 14:07
I have finished all main questlines (mage, companion, thief, dark brotherhood).

They are all mediocrily (is that even a word? probably not) written. Still, I had fun doing them. But good writers bethesda has not. Ironically my favourite was the thief one, but that has to do with gameplay, not writing. I just love stealth in games.
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December 29th, 2011, 14:44
Originally Posted by HiddenX View Post
The main design goals of Skyrim:

a) do whatever you want, whenever you you want, in a role you like
b) don't fear the consequences of your choices
c) explore without limits
d) build a character without limits

a)+b)+c)+d) => good sandbox game
a)+b)+c)+d) <> traditional role playing, where limits and consequences are necessary
Yeah, Morrowind still had some of the traditional role playing bits where you had to be a certain level in particular skills to even join or progress a faction questline. I actually miss it, you needed to do some extra effort to show you actually were usefull to the guild.

On the other hand I like that I can join a thieves guild or a mages guild despite having no stealth (except lock picking) or magic skills. It's very egalitarian that way. For example I needed to be in de mage guild to have access to certain dungeon. (To which I was send by another quest for the gaulder amulet: forbidden legend). So I only joined the College of Winterhold to gain access to the archeological dig (and thus obtain the fragment of the amulet). While at the dig I did unleash something dangerous which threatened the college, so despite my characters unqualified skillset I tried to make it right and before I knew it I had finished the questline using almost no magic at all and was made the Archmage. I like to roleplay that as a very 'pencil-pusher' kind of school-administrator with no teaching-qualifications whatsoever.

So while I like Morrowinds limitations (read: skill demands) on joining, I actually like that Oblivion and Skyrim only set-up scenarios. How you deal with those scenarios is up to the player.
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December 29th, 2011, 15:01
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
crpgnut…I'm…overwhelmed. I don't know if the irony is greater from what you said you think or what you think you mean. Know what I mean?


So you read a lot of books, which you use as a qualifier to criticize others who take writing too seriously in games. Basically your saying, you ate a bunch of roses and now your farts are of rosey sonnets?
Nope, I'm saying that I wouldn't take a "review" from Shamus anymore seriously than a "review" from myself or any other forum member. He really hasn't done anything that would make me deride the work of the nicely paid folks at Bethesda, whom he criticizes. His writing is certainly no better than what I was reading in the game.

That's my sole point. However, I'm quite oblivious to many "web celebritries" so I was honestly asking, "What has he done to earn such stature"?

P.S. I'm no writer. I'm just a crpg nut. Also a Bethesda fanboi

'nut
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December 29th, 2011, 15:05
Originally Posted by Roll-A-Dice View Post
Peter Molyneux Made populous, black and white, fable, dungeon master, and a few otherr games that aren't as notable.

Yoshinori Ono is responsible for Street Fighter and parts of Devil May Cry.
I had heard of these two. I'm not an authority on anything, much like Shamus himself

'nut
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December 29th, 2011, 15:24
The thieves guild questline was the best skyrim had to offer.

Nitpicking it like that is similar to berating a retarded child for unkempt hair while ignoring the fact that the kid's chewing on its own soiled diapers.
Last edited by KapitanUnterhosen; December 29th, 2011 at 15:58.
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December 29th, 2011, 18:08
Skyrim is just massive. Inevitably the more one does, the more mistakes one makes. Those who do nothing make no mistakes.

Against that must be balanced the rule that if a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing well.

Skyrim doesn't fare poorly when the latter rule is applied. It doesn't approach perfect either. I suppose I've come to believe that mediocrity is probably the fairest basis for evaluation as natural forces most always seem to push towards mediocrity — and on that basis IMO Skyrim fares pretty well; at least a couple of standard deviations above mediocrity in virtually all of its many facets.

It's great to have cities with lots of functional buildings, just like in the old days of RPGs. I'd begun to think that those days were gone for good. Supposedly large cities with only half a dozen functioning buildings seemed to be the new standard.

Skyrim's main story line is actually quite good IMO. Good lore and good depth IMO.

Wish the followers had more depth. Lots of other wishes in addition. If Skyrim had done less, I'd inevitably have fewer wishes for things done differently.
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December 29th, 2011, 19:12
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
crpgnut…I'm…overwhelmed. I don't know if the irony is greater from what you said you think or what you think you mean. Know what I mean?


So you read a lot of books, which you use as a qualifier to criticize others who take writing too seriously in games. Basically your saying, you ate a bunch of roses and now your farts are of rosey sonnets?
I didn't criticize anybody. I said I read a lot of books, which I enjoy doing, and even though I enjoy reading books I can still enjoy the quests and writing in Skyrim. You should be able to do both - enjoying a great, in depth 400 page novel, and then enjoying a 5 line sonnet. Video games are the 5 line sonnet. They will never convey the sheer depth of a great novel, but they can be made to "seem" like they are. It's like an illusion that the game plays on you. To make you think it goes deeper than it really does. It's up to you to suspend your disbelief and go with the flow, or rip it apart because truly, it's not "deep enough". I choose to go with the flow and enjoy it for what it has to offer.

My main point was that people seem to be incredibly picky, to the point where they lose interest in a video game because of it. All I'm suggesting is to approach video games like they are shiny, new toys, and you're a child who doesn't know any better and just wants to play with the shiny new toy. If you approach them in this way, you will always be surprised, always be enthralled, and always at least have some fun with a game, no matter what. Trust me, I can rip a game apart with the best of them! And I have my gripes about games like Skyrim. But at the end of the day I choose to ignore them and focus on the good bits. It makes my gaming experience much more fun because of it.

Don't get me wrong though, the person who said forums would be more boring because of this attitude is right. And the cynical type of attitude is also attributed with bringing change to games, I'm sure. I'm sure because of this article it's possible that someone who wrote for the Thieves guild questline in Skyrim will rethink his writing for the next game. Not saying that will happen, but it's possible. All thanks to people meticulously picking the game apart. So yes, they are good for something. It's important to balance both attitudes and knowing which attitude to have at a certain time.

But bottom line, the people who wrote this article have their opinions, and I have mine. Everyone is right in their own mind. So I don't even know why I bothered posting this, but whatever. I felt like typing
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December 29th, 2011, 19:50
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
My main point was that people seem to be incredibly picky, to the point where they lose interest in a video game because of it. All I'm suggesting is to approach video games like they are shiny, new toys, and you're a child who doesn't know any better and just wants to play with the shiny new toy. If you approach them in this way, you will always be surprised, always be enthralled, and always at least have some fun with a game, no matter what. Trust me, I can rip a game apart with the best of them! And I have my gripes about games like Skyrim. But at the end of the day I choose to ignore them and focus on the good bits. It makes my gaming experience much more fun because of it.
+1

I feel not only this way about games but also movies. If I a movie intrigues me and its about something I like, I will usually go see it and I will usually like the movie. Out of any 100 movies I see, there are probably only a few that I would say I did not like. And usually those few were recommendations and not films I would normally go to see.

As far as games, I like CPRG, adventure games and the occasional FPS. OTH, games are more expensive than movies so of the games I buy maybe only 1 out of a 100, I definitely do not like. Never bought Dragon Age 2 because I could tell they went a direction I did not like, thus I have no complaints with the game. Never bought any Fable after Fable 1 because the first one was boring. And now I'm having some doubts about KOA.

In essence, I think like you, when I play a game, I really do PLAY A GAME. No expectations of Don Quixote or Citizen Kane, just going in to have a fun time. If the game works, I will be back for more, if it doesn't work, well . . .cya.

As far as Skyrim, thus far no problem with the writing at all. But after over 250 hours you do tend to have some stuff to pick at. Still, I just started the thieves guild quest line and it starts off with me doing so work I may not want to do (I'm playing a good guy). I just may have to back out of the job for this character. And I have no problem with there NOT being a third option.

side note: I loved "Michelle and Romy's High School Reunion"
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December 29th, 2011, 20:18
One thing I never do in games is try to bring them in to the real world. Yes, none of that makes sense in our world but the game is played in skyrim. NOT IN OUR WORLD.

If you put games up against the rules and common sense in our world many would fail.

You could have made the same article about anything in skyrim. Magic doesn't work in our world no matter how hard I try flames will not shoot from my bare hands, Why do I need a necklace to get married and why will people marry me after I do just 1 favor for them? Why can I talk to someone then crouch down and they have no idea i'm there? Why do people keep saying the same things over and over again? etc. etc.

Why does all that stuff happen? because that's the way life is in skyrim. So play in skyrim and leave the real world out of it. The game should be much more enjoyable that way.
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December 29th, 2011, 22:08
Originally Posted by crpgnut View Post
I really have never heard of this dude. What has he done that would make me value his opinion?
Allright, I almost never post in this forum. But your ridiculous attitude riles me, mister nut.

What does it matter who Shamus Young is? The text speaks for itself.

I have played the questline in Skyrim, and I have read the article. Every point raised by Shamus Young is a valid one. That does not make Skyrim a bad game. In fact, it's one of my all time favourites. All the more reason to wish Bethesda would hire a competent writer.
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December 29th, 2011, 22:21
Yay! I made you post. My day is complete

'nut
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December 30th, 2011, 01:06
I'm not a huge fan of Shamus, who I sometimes find to be too self-serving for my taste. That said, he is a well-known "web geek" and often writes on RPGs.

You shouldn't take his writing as authoritative (is anyone's in a creative medium?) but, as Mr Smiley notes, the piece stands on its own. It was posted for the sake of discussion - as usual - feel free to disagree, which is kind of the point!

I don't agree with every point he makes here - but others are spot on. Am I enjoying the Thieves Guild quest chain, anyway? Yep, so far - but it could have been better and wouldn't have taken any additional resources for that to happen.

-= RPGWatch =-
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December 31st, 2011, 02:44
Thieves guild quest Spoiler question, so don't look!

Been trying to work this out and video card freaked out before I could find out.
Spoiler – Thief Guild Quest reward


Thanks.

Trust me, most of the names I have been called you can't translate in any language…they're not even real words as much as a succession of violent images.
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December 31st, 2011, 03:48
Originally Posted by Acleacius View Post
Thieves guild quest Spoiler question
No it's not intended to be your home.

Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
I'm not a huge fan of Shamus, who I sometimes find to be too self-serving for my taste.
Do you think that's the case here? I mean Skyrim was released to perfect scores almost across the entire board despite a huge number of high-level design flaws and Shamus instead of writing up what would be one of the few unfavorable reviews, instead writes 5 articles bitching about the story design of the TG's questline, which is arguably one of the most enjoyable parts of the game. I agree with most of the complaints, I just find the game has much bigger issues that were basically ignored by reviews.

Could he be trying to get the attention of some dev studio by criticizing in-depth(by gaming media standards) a small portion(best portion?) of the game?
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December 31st, 2011, 07:11
As Shamus concludes: "This writer had no head for this sort of thing, and I don’t understand why they went to all this trouble."

I believe that many of the problems with this quest line, and indeed much bad writing in both games and movies, stem from a vain desire for plots full of twists and surprises. But I'd rather have a straightforward plot that makes sense, than a convoluted mess with twists and surprises that don't make sense.

After all, how many times have you been railroded through a game plot towards a predictably "surprising" twist where your close ally stabs you in the back? Isn't that sort of thing almost mandatory?
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