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March 22nd, 2012, 18:35
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Ehm, it would be either way.
I see no evidence that that is guaranteed within our current system.


Oh does it, now. I fail to see any resemblance, personally.
A separate society where money doesn't exist and everyone does what is the best for the group as a whole?

Yes, and how many years are you willing to wait?
I don't expect the world to ever be perfect, so the question holds no value. I expect the world to continue to improve, which I think it will



Aren't you contradicting what you just said above?
Not at all. I said we needed good, efficient regulation, which we more or less had until the US Congress started tearing it down with the repeal of the Interstate Banking Act.

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March 22nd, 2012, 18:37
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
You can already do this. People have done it for a long time. It just has never had any long or wide spread affect. One of the main reasons is a point that you already mentioned: human nature. Human nature isn't going to change just do to eduction.

And for this new society to surpass the current society it would have to produce something that is more attractive to the members of the current society, whether that be quality of life, economic production or whatever. So far, that has never happened and I don't think it is going to any time soon.

One of the fundamental problems you face is the same that communism faced (and ultimately caused its inefficiencies and eventual downfall), again human nature. Any system can be taken advantage of, and there will always be someone that tries to do so. The more regulations you put in place to prevent that (whether these be economic or behavioral), the more inefficient the system becomes, and the abuse actually becomes able due to people grabbing onto the power those regulations allow.
It's simply a world with a minimum of crime and material needs. People who want to live there would be welcome, and people who'd prefer to "outproduce" each other can live in our current world.

It wouldn't "surpass" the current society as an objective. It's just something that will inevitably be the result.

The problem with communism wasn't so much the system as it was the fact that human beings were in charge of the system. That's my point. My "system" is one of absolutely minimal regulation - and it will shrink into basically no regulation - as human beings get to exist in a state where regulation is no longer required to prevent large scale harm. Technology will be the primary regulator.

But it's too big a subject for this thread - and I haven't the stamina to go in-depth about something so inherently complex on a public forum. Especially not with people who think they can make up their minds about something so involved, because they're presented with a three paragraph statement about it.
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March 22nd, 2012, 18:38
I actually think people can evolve and individuals can act above base greed and selfish animal instincts. Some cultures and societies do a better job of facilitating this behavior. But there will always be some pyschopaths (not quite the right word, which currently escapes me) that think of nothing but themselves.
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March 22nd, 2012, 18:45
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
I see no evidence that that is guaranteed within our current system.
You're the one saying the world would be crumbling, not I.

Why do you assume that I think the current society should just stagnate and be left alone. How about you work within the system as you want - and I'd try to create a different system altogether. A win-win, right?

A separate society where money doesn't exist and everyone does what is the best for the group as a whole?
Did hippies distribute their resources evenly? Did they have the technology to govern their laws? Did they have hardware within their bodies with information that all had access to?

In my concept, people don't do what's "best for everyone" as such. They simply don't pursue goals that directly affect others negatively - because it won't be possible.

I have no doubt you imagine my idea as some kind of drug-induced hippie alternative, but it's not really what I'm about.

I don't expect the world to ever be perfect, so the question holds no value. I expect the world to continue to improve, which I think it will
I agree. I'd just rather not wait a thousand years if I can help it, but I fear that I must.

Not at all. I said we needed good, efficient regulation, which we more or less had until the US Congress started tearing it down with the repeal of the Interstate Banking Act.
So the world hasn't actually improved here?
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March 22nd, 2012, 19:52
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
I actually think people can evolve and individuals can act above base greed and selfish animal instincts. Some cultures and societies do a better job of facilitating this behavior. But there will always be some pyschopaths (not quite the right word, which currently escapes me) that think of nothing but themselves.
Opportunists?

And I agree. That's the fundamental problem with utopian ideas. They assume that the opportunists (and worse) can either be marginalized by the collective or eliminated from human nature.

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March 22nd, 2012, 19:56
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
You're the one saying the world would be crumbling, not I.
Only if we don't fix some of the problems, which was my original point.

Did hippies distribute their resources evenly?
Most communes at least start out that way.

Did they have the technology to govern their laws? Did they have hardware within their bodies with information that all had access to?
So you want to turn us into cyborgs?

In my concept, people don't do what's "best for everyone" as such. They simply don't pursue goals that directly affect others negatively - because it won't be possible.
I cannot foresee any possible future where it is impossible to pursue a goal that doesn't have the potential to affect someone else negatively.

So the world hasn't actually improved here?
Everything has dips. It has vastly improved over say where we were during the Great Depression, and even in the problems of the last 15 years, it has improved in many, many ways, just not the banking side of things.

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March 22nd, 2012, 19:57
Hmm close. The word I was looking for is misanthropes? Basically people who dislike humanity so much they don't care about how many people they shit on to get ahead. That's the extreme of course. There's levels of less destructive behavior.
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March 22nd, 2012, 20:02
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Hmm close. The word I was looking for is misanthropes? Basically people who dislike humanity so much they don't care about how many people they shit on to get ahead. That's the extreme of course. There's levels of less destructive behavior.
Ohh those people. I just call them 'co-workers'


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March 22nd, 2012, 20:07
Yes there has been some rather abhorrent behavior in investment banks recently, hasn't there. Not to say it's limited to there, but those are the most obvious worst offenders.
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March 22nd, 2012, 20:42
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
Only if we don't fix some of the problems, which was my original point.
Fix away, I'm not stopping you or advocating we stop fixing problems. I'm just suggesting another solution - that can co-exist with whatever else.

Most communes at least start out that way.
Must be the ones I don't know about, then. From what I know of the "hippie movement" - they didn't have the first clue how to go about anything. They just wanted "world peace" and open relations - which is great, but it does require some pretty smart design - and doing drugs probably doesn't help the process.

My design isn't necessarily brilliant - it's just an idea that would be refined and expanded upon. But it's not a whimsical notion that I conjured up one day in the bathroom.

So you want to turn us into cyborgs?
You watch too much science fiction.

I cannot foresee any possible future where it is impossible to pursue a goal that doesn't have the potential to affect someone else negatively.
I said DIRECTLY affect others negatively. Also, I can't prevent people from insulting each other and I can't cure jealousy or heartache.

What my system CAN do, is ensure that everyone has basic needs met, a secure environment, and a reasonable level of comfort - as well as the freedom to pursue any endeavor that surplus resources allow.

If you look around, you'll find that the vast majority of misery in this world stems from the lack of the things my system can provide. No, I'm not talking about people like us who're reasonably well off - and who've learned to function well in society - being slaves to societal norms so we can spend most of our life doing something we don't particularly enjoy and then "be proud" of our contribution as 90% of the resources end up with 1% of the population.
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March 22nd, 2012, 21:17
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
You watch too much science fiction.
Sadly I don't. You were the one talking about putting technology in us.


I said DIRECTLY affect others negatively. Also, I can't prevent people from insulting each other and I can't cure jealousy or heartache.

What my system CAN do, is ensure that everyone has basic needs met, a secure environment, and a reasonable level of comfort - as well as the freedom to pursue any endeavor that surplus resources allow.

If you look around, you'll find that the vast majority of misery in this world stems from the lack of the things my system can provide. No, I'm not talking about people like us who're reasonably well off - and who've learned to function well in society - being slaves to societal norms so we can spend most of our life doing something we don't particularly enjoy and then "be proud" of our contribution as 90% of the resources end up with 1% of the population.
I fail to see how your system is going to solve a number of issues that prevent people from getting basic needs. For instance, how is your system going to solve the infrastructure issue in Africa that is a large part of the reason so many die of AIDS there?

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March 22nd, 2012, 21:29
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
Sadly I don't. You were the one talking about putting technology in us.
You're missing out

Have you heard of a pacemaker?

You don't have to become the Terminator because you have a minor chip under your skin.

It can be seen as a necessary evil, but it's also good for our way of interacting. It would help eliminate the desire for secrets and lies - and it would help us greatly when dealing with taboos and our discomfort with private weaknesses.

Part of the sickness of modern society, is that we're advocating shame for being human - and we're praising individuals based on being no more or less capable than anyone else, but simply because they become known.

Ideally, it will help lead to a world where we no longer need lies to endure living.

I fail to see how your system is going to solve a number of issues that prevent people from getting basic needs. For instance, how is your system going to solve the infrastructure issue in Africa that is a large part of the reason so many die of AIDS there?
First of all, my alternate society would start off at whatever location could be agreed upon - with future expansion taken into consideration.

If it works - then there would eventually be no Africa. We would have access to the resources of the entire globe at the end - dedicated exclusively to providing a safe environment as part of our basic needs. A large part of the initial investment would be into technology that could automate optimal processes for extraction of optimal resources for the correct purposes. There would be no financial conflict of interest - and every single product - be it food/building/luxury item would be constructed with a 100% pragmatic purpose - built to last or provide optimal sustenance.

It wouldn't be able to solve the over-population problem, but technology exists to build entire cities on the ocean - for instance.

The reason all this sounds utopian, is because you're looking at this as a citizen in the current world. You have to forget being a banker - and imagining that 1% of the population is no longer controlling 90% of our resources. The entire globe is available for this purpose at the end.

At the beginning, everything will be dedicated to researching the very best ways to stay healthy - and the very best materials (whether artificial or natural) for every "basic need" purpose. The first many years would be almost entirely dedicated to research and implementation of technology to extract and apply resources with as much automation as possible.
Last edited by DArtagnan; March 22nd, 2012 at 21:40.
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March 22nd, 2012, 23:40
I think Dart wants to be the Anti-Christ and usher in 666 and all that!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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March 23rd, 2012, 01:56
It's a fairly detailed plan, and might even be workable if you accept one of his underlying premises—you have to genuinely believe that man is able to overcome the basic animal nature that forms the basis of human instinct. Since I don't see any end of greed, territorialism, and tribalism, there's simply no way in hell D'Art's plan works for me. But, if you agree with D'Art that the foundations of humanity can be torn up and rebuilt, his plan is fairly reasonable.

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March 25th, 2012, 05:24
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
What part of the extremely simple concept of "volunteer basis" are you failing to understand?
I'm sure there are plenty of "volunteers" in North Korea. What part of freedom don't you understand?
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March 25th, 2012, 10:03
Originally Posted by CrazyIrish View Post
I'm sure there are plenty of "volunteers" in North Korea. What part of freedom don't you understand?
I think you'd be surprised how many would want an alternative. However, I know it's helpful for the prejudicial brain to think of North Korea as some kind of evil hive mind - because of what their leaders are doing. To someone like me, it's just a physical location with human beings having rules and traditions they follow because they don't think there's any other way. Human beings are the same at the core everywhere.

But if there were no volunteers from there, so what? It's the very definition of freedom to have the choice. I'm actually suggesting one more choice - that anyone could take or leave - as long as they're willing to exist under the set circumstances. There may have to be an initial limit on the amount - based on physical space and many other factors. But I'd expect the people interested initially would be relatively few. One of the greater challenges would be how to establish that the people interested truly understood the implications - and truly wanted to live like that. I would expect a lot of people without means to volunteer simply because it'd be a way to get away from the current world.

As I said, this idea would face an endless wave of ignorant opposition. That's something the people willing to try would have to accept and deal with as best they can.
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October 10th, 2012, 15:49
Here is an imho very good Article by Nobel Prize winner Joseph Stiglitz : http://www.ftd.de/finanzen/maerkte/:…/70048716.html

It is in german language, though. But I assumethat everyone here is capable of using an translation service.

"Rent-Seeking" ? That term was new to me : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

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