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Default Baldur's Gate - EE Edition - New Art Director

April 22nd, 2012, 10:11
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
There are eight ex-BioWare developers now at Overhaul, by the way, so I think you're a bit off the mark there. Even direct sequels by the same company have personnel changes.
It doesn't matter if the entire original team was back, really. Since they're doing minor changes to already existing work - it's as opportunistic as if they hadn't been a part of it.

It's exactly the same as what EA is doing with their sports games every year, or what I think Vogel is doing re-releasing so much of the same content over and over.

Is it wrong? No, not objectively.
Is it legitimate? Definitely.
Does it hurt anyone? Doubt it.

Is it opportunism? Yeah.
Is it exploiting the impulse-driven market? Yeah.
Is it appealing? No, not to me.

End of story.
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April 22nd, 2012, 10:32
Well as long as they come through with all the things they're promising and it's a reasonable price, they can exploit me all they want.
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April 22nd, 2012, 11:02
Hey, I'm even considering getting it myself
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April 22nd, 2012, 12:24
Opportunism implies a selfish action and willfull acceptance or disregard of potentially negative consequences of one's actions to others. What such consequences do you see, D'Art?
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April 22nd, 2012, 12:37
Opportunism is simply about taking advantage of an opportunity without caring much for the consequences.

In this case, they're exploiting the fact that people love Baldur's Gate so much, that any promise of an "enhanced" edition is sure to make a splash - regardless of how enhanced it really is.

The consequence is that a lot of people are going to buy something that's essentially already available.

As I said, just like EA Sports games coming out every year with modest improvements for full price.

Now, is that going to harm anyone really? No.

It's just basic opportunism.

Personally, I think it's tasteless to profit in such a way - but then again, there are many, many tasteless things in this life.

Do note that if this Baldur's Gate EE ends up being something really significant - then I'm obviously wrong about this - and it wouldn't be blatant opportunism in that case.
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April 22nd, 2012, 13:05
Weak argument. You're happy to announce you can't support it but you don't know what is being done or what price will be charged and you assume "a lot" of people will be taken advantage.

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April 22nd, 2012, 17:20
I'm not psychic, no. But if what they've announced so far represents the bulk of the changes, I have more than enough to support my "argument".

For whatever reason, I don't think they're hiding some major changes for kicks.

Are we about done here? I'm not arguing anything. I'm explaining my position because people keep challenging it.

If you think it's not an opportunistic project - then it's likely because you think they're doing something really worthwhile that's worth the money.

I'm fine with that position, I just don't share it.
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April 22nd, 2012, 17:21
I'm not psychic, no. But if what they've announced so far represents the bulk of the changes, I have more than enough to support my "argument".

For whatever reason, I don't think they're hiding some major changes for kicks. Oh, and I'm willing to bet this will be sold for no less than 9.99$. Any takers?

Are we about done here? I'm not arguing anything. I'm explaining my position because people keep challenging it.

If you think it's not an opportunistic project - then it's likely because you think they're doing something worthwhile that's worth the money.

I'm fine with that position, I just don't share it.
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April 22nd, 2012, 17:54
Couldn't they hire someone who is good at drawing characters and have them redraw every character and NPC in the game?
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April 22nd, 2012, 18:15
If you think it's not an opportunistic project - then it's likely because you think they're doing something worthwhile that's worth the money.
I think the reason you're being argued with is the word "opportunistic" does not seem to accurately describe how you view them. Based on what you said above, it sounds more like you feel this is somewhat disingenuous or cynical (example) on their part rather than opportunistic - or at least you don't sound like you mean to ascribe the connotation that carries in this context.

Nothing wrong with being skeptical of the motivations behind a re-release - but as they're not trampling over anyone to do this I can see why the word "opportunism" would spark disagreement.
Last edited by jhwisner; April 22nd, 2012 at 18:35.
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April 22nd, 2012, 22:12
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Opportunism is simply about taking advantage of an opportunity without caring much for the consequences.
Opportunism implies selfish intent.

Seizing an opportunity when you see it and capitalizing on it is a trait that most successful people and businesses excel at and is not a negative in any way. You can also seize an opportunity and care about the consequences.

Maybe they are doing the latter and not the former.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
In this case, they're exploiting the fact that people love Baldur's Gate so much, that any promise of an "enhanced" edition is sure to make a splash - regardless of how enhanced it really is.
Are they? I don't know about that and neither do you. Maybe they are using it to gauge interest and revive a genre they seem to feel passionate about. Again your implying intent when you have no idea what there intent is.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
The consequence is that a lot of people are going to buy something that's essentially already available.
Since we don't know the exact extent of the changes, you can't know that. Even if everything they make is already available (even though we know the new content they are adding won't be.) I personally would find value in having it as a one time install with no modding needed.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
As I said, just like EA Sports games coming out every year with modest improvements for full price.
So, just about every industry does that. Automobiles, audio, pc hardware, all electronics, clothing, etc, etc. If you don't want to support this then you should buy a tent and move to the mountains somewhere and become totally self sufficient. Buy a really old tent though not one that has been enhanced and improved throughout the years.

Now, is that going to harm anyone really? No.

It's just basic opportunism.

Personally, I think it's tasteless to profit in such a way - but then again, there are many, many tasteless things in this life.

Do note that if this Baldur's Gate EE ends up being something really significant - then I'm obviously wrong about this - and it wouldn't be blatant opportunism in that case.[/QUOTE]

Then why condemn them before you see any evidence for or against your point?
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April 22nd, 2012, 22:23
Opportunism implies selfish intent.

Seizing an opportunity when you see it and capitalizing on it is a trait that most successful people and businesses excel at and is not a negative in any way. You can also seize an opportunity and care about the consequences.

Maybe they are doing the latter and not the former.
and

Opportunism is simply about taking advantage of an opportunity without caring much for the consequences.
Opportunism carries the connotation of willful disregard of the consequences in addition to mere selfish intent. It does not merely mean seizing opportunity for selfish reasons, the additional negative connotation is present and unambiguous. Subversion of this normal ethical/moral negative connotation can be used as a rhetorical flourish or exploited disingenuously or simply misunderstood.. It is often misused - particularly in punditry - to the point that one may come to think of it as a neutral term but this is not correct.

It's perfectly fine to distrust their ability or actual desires with regard to delivering a product faithful to the original. Nothing wrong with personal skepticism or even some degree of cynicism; after all, a cynic would naturally and honestly see such pitches as being potentially cynical in nature themselves. I think the disagreement here is that "opportunism" has a far stronger and unambiguous negative connotation than is being intended by those using it to describe how they see this.

Even a cynical attempt to cache in on the nostalgia people feel for these old games still leaves room for a desire to make them well - but that wouldn't necessarily be the first priority in such a case. An opportunistic approach would suggest a more willful disregard for the quality and faithfulness of the products - to the point where it would suggest an almost fly-by-night cash-in where the developers would not really have interest in leveraging good-will and success of this project to develop future original implementations of the engine and their brand. I don't think the latter is what Dartagnan intended to suggest.

————

I would agree that it might be premature to assume this will be a mere exploitative way to re-sell a beloved product to the same people. It's also a valid thing to consider as a possibility - at least keeping that possibility in the back of your mind when considering the final product. It's not like we haven't been burned by exploitative re-releases where the developer or publisher cynically attempted to cash in on our nostalgia without doing much work. Personally, I'd be willing to give this one a closer once it is further along and remain optimistic that their enthusiasm and ability is genuine as it has be represented so far. I won't try to argue that my optimism is inherently more rational than Dartagnan's pessimism though - its really a personal decision to take them at their word for now.
Last edited by jhwisner; April 22nd, 2012 at 22:54. Reason: s
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April 22nd, 2012, 23:23
You do realize there's an enormous group of younger people who have never heard of bg.

This is good for the rpg business in general.
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April 22nd, 2012, 23:45
Originally Posted by Ovenall View Post
You do realize there's an enormous group of younger people who have never heard of bg.

This is good for the rpg business in general.
Yeah - as long as they can get over having to read.
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April 22nd, 2012, 23:45
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
For whatever reason, I don't think they're hiding some major changes for kicks. Oh, and I'm willing to bet this will be sold for no less than 9.99$. Any takers?
Seriously? I spend more than that on an average lunch.

For native HD resolutions, BG2 character classes, new quests, extended level cap, etc., all without having to mess with any mods… I'll sacrifice a meal.
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April 23rd, 2012, 03:28
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Seriously? I spend more than that on an average lunch.

For native HD resolutions, BG2 character classes, new quests, extended level cap, etc., all without having to mess with any mods… I'll sacrifice a meal.
Count me in as well.

This is a GoG taken to the next level. I'm happy enough they get it working on today's machines, but if they want to add more content AND make it work on today's machines then sign me up.

If they want twenty bucks for it then I'll have to pass, but if they sell it for ten bucks then I would pick it up without a second thought. Hell I just did that with Space Rangers 2 Reboot because I would have to go through all kinds of nonsense to get my old copies working again. So instead I paid 10 bucks for Reboot over at GamersGate and was playing as soon as it was downloaded.

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April 23rd, 2012, 07:59
Originally Posted by Ovenall View Post
They remake movies all the time. I simply don't see any negative impact here at all outside people pouting about their cherished memories being tainted, or that someone is trying to make money. "Bioware totally cashed in on Gary Gygax's creation, man. Damn opportunists! And dumbed it down by….."

I'll wait for reviews to be sure, but since I've never finished BG2, I'll buy unless it's a total mess.
Yes and we all see how the remakes bomb in the theater. Maybe every game and movie should be redone and ruined. Just to make them viewable or playable for new gamers and viewers.

I will agree on the I'll wait till it's out and the gamers not reviewers can tell how it is.

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Last edited by Couchpotato; April 23rd, 2012 at 09:51.
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April 23rd, 2012, 10:42
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Seriously? I spend more than that on an average lunch.

For native HD resolutions, BG2 character classes, new quests, extended level cap, etc., all without having to mess with any mods… I'll sacrifice a meal.
You know what's strange?

All that has been available through easy modding - and you've been adamant that you only want the "pure" experience

As for what you pay for a meal, what bearing does that have on value or opportunism?

There's a reason McDonald's is such a successful chain of "restaurants" - but I can't say I think it has much to do with value for money.

Still, people flock to eat there - and it's all perfectly legitimate.
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April 23rd, 2012, 10:51
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
Opportunism implies selfish intent.
I'd agree, but it's not really part of the definition.

Seizing an opportunity when you see it and capitalizing on it is a trait that most successful people and businesses excel at and is not a negative in any way. You can also seize an opportunity and care about the consequences.

Maybe they are doing the latter and not the former.
Maybe they are, but I don't think so - because what they're talking about takes a minimal effort and it's all available already, for free.

Are they? I don't know about that and neither do you. Maybe they are using it to gauge interest and revive a genre they seem to feel passionate about. Again your implying intent when you have no idea what there intent is.
Since we don't know the exact extent of the changes, you can't know that. Even if everything they make is already available (even though we know the new content they are adding won't be.) I personally would find value in having it as a one time install with no modding needed.
If you think that's worth paying for, then it's obviously not opportunism to you. Maybe it IS worth it - and I just don't know about.

So, just about every industry does that. Automobiles, audio, pc hardware, all electronics, clothing, etc, etc. If you don't want to support this then you should buy a tent and move to the mountains somewhere and become totally self sufficient. Buy a really old tent though not one that has been enhanced and improved throughout the years.
Would it surprise you to know that I consider most industries driven by opportunism?

Then why condemn them before you see any evidence for or against your point?
I wouldn't say I'm condemning them. I'm seeing things and responding with what I think they're doing.

Then I acknowledge that I could be wrong.

Like if some politician said he'd make changes for the better. Why would I be sceptical and call it bullshit? How could I "condemn" him when I don't know?

It's called experience.
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April 23rd, 2012, 10:56
I would agree that it might be premature to assume this will be a mere exploitative way to re-sell a beloved product to the same people. It's also a valid thing to consider as a possibility - at least keeping that possibility in the back of your mind when considering the final product. It's not like we haven't been burned by exploitative re-releases where the developer or publisher cynically attempted to cash in on our nostalgia without doing much work. Personally, I'd be willing to give this one a closer once it is further along and remain optimistic that their enthusiasm and ability is genuine as it has be represented so far. I won't try to argue that my optimism is inherently more rational than Dartagnan's pessimism though - its really a personal decision to take them at their word for now.
While we seem to disagree on the semantics, it's refreshing to have at least one around here acknowledge that it's just a subjective position.

We obviously have different experiences with remakes and "re-releases" - and we must have had very different games in our hands when promised a "special edition" for a low price.

In my world, you don't go about making an enhanced version of something that's already enhanced through modding - unless you're bringing something truly worthwhile to the table. Unless you simply want to generate profit from a ripe market, driven by irrational nostalgia and more money than time.

That's what I call opportunism, but it's not as bad as it sounds. It's human nature - and we're all opportunistic to various degrees. Maybe we're not all as focused on the material (I've never been big into that) - but then there are other things that we want.
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