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May 24th, 2012, 21:20
I just don't get it. The criticism (other than the always on subject). This is about as close to aRPG perfection as I've seen. Granted, I haven't played it all the way through yet, but barring some massive fall off a cliff as the game goes on, what gives?

The story elements and immersion execution is fantastic for an aRPG. Can anyone think of an aRPG that's done it better to date? I sure can't.

The skill system may pan out to be a bad thing, but I'm not feeling that way so far. I've got so many skills and variations at level 20, I'm having a hard time choosing. That's a good thing. And I'm not missing the attribute fiddling yet. I'm OK at this point with only manipulating them with my decisions as to what items to equip.

The pacing? Fantastic. Better than D2, in my opinion. The way they've varied the action with random events, side dungeons, creative monster design, even creative ways to pop loot out of objects! is masterful.

My only worry at this point is items. I've yet to see a legendary or set item, and it bugs me a bit. In the back of my mind I periodically think "where the hell are the golds and greens?". And with all characters being dependent on weapon damage, DPS may be too dominant a factor in choosing what to equip.

Based on what I've seen so far and solely on gameplay (not infrastructure issues or philisophical debates about the connection or RMAH or whatever), and marking down a bit for the items issues, I'd give it a 95 out of 100.

EDIT: Just read the GB review. So it does fall off a cliff! :-) Guess I'll find out for myself soon enough, but I doubt I'll agree with his ultimate disappointment. I think his refusal to recommend the game is too much of a reach. If you're a fan of aRPG's, this game is too fun not to recommend.
Last edited by chamr; May 24th, 2012 at 23:06.
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May 24th, 2012, 21:37
Uh, maybe because it seems to me mainly action and looting, there is very little, to no actual RPG in it?

It's seems all about the killing and looting (and selling) and trying out new skills cycle. Which is fine, but I have different things to try out first before doing something I've done many times before (and worn a spot on my table with the frantic action).
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May 24th, 2012, 21:57
You'll get no argument from me there. But that is at the heart of the nature of aRPG's. If you're the type of player that likes their game to be more on the traditional end of the RPG spectrum, aRPGs are going to seem too shallow for you to enjoy.

Me, I like them both. The key is that I appreciate them for what they are. I don't ask my aRPGs to have a lot of traditional elements to worry about (that gets in the way of the "a" part of an aRPG), and I don't ask my old school type RPGs to be too action-y. I think games get into trouble when they try to do too much, like being a great aRPG and a great traditional RPG at the same time. Or providing oodles and oodles of content that can't possibly stay interesting for all that time and just ends up being unfinish-able for folks that don't have oodles and oodles of time and patience to make it to the end. Like most things in life, when you try to do too much and lose focus, you usually fail. And that's why I think the typical Blizzard methodology of refinement over innovation has served them well with D3. They've resisted the temptation of trying to twist it into something it's not.
Last edited by chamr; May 24th, 2012 at 22:09.
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May 24th, 2012, 22:46
I wouldn't go that far. You still gain experience by killing enemies and completing quests. You still level up (skill points automatically assigned similar to how Sacred handled it) and gain significant powers as you gain levels. You still sort through insane amounts of gear that all enhance your characters in different ways. Maybe it's better to call this an Arpg rather than an aRPG, but both are still involved.

It has just as much of a RPG feel to me as Oblivion did. While more story, quest varieties, and leveling options were present there, at least in Diablo I can go back and smite enemies after I have gained new gear without worrying about level scaling.
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May 24th, 2012, 22:59
Wut? This is nothing like Oblivion, there's no roleplaying here except picking your initial class and that's it, right?
Last edited by Thrasher; May 24th, 2012 at 23:09.
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May 24th, 2012, 23:01
Originally Posted by killias2 View Post
In any case, what RTS campaigns are better? Starcraft 2 had variety, polish, and fun. I seriously can't think of a serious competitor. If there is one, maybe I need to buy it and play it.
If you haven't tried Supreme Commander, I heartily recommend it. It kicks a lot of ass It's a shame it didn't do well financially due to heavy CPU burdens.
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May 24th, 2012, 23:07
D3 shines amongst people.

If you're playing solo, be prepared to be bored to tears:
The acts just go on and on and on. Rare is it for the quests to impart any excitement to continue with yet another objective that blurs with the previous one. I often find myself at a loss as to how far I've progressed through an act because the story is so contrived and there's little variation in the landscapes.
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May 24th, 2012, 23:21
Well you pick your skills too. The only significant difference between a more traditional RPG system is the lack of a gold cost to respec. Though at max level there is supposed to be an opportunity cost to respec (but I'm a long ways away from max level to see how well it works).

Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Wut? This is nothing like Oblivion, there's no roleplaying here except picking your initial class and that's it, right?
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May 24th, 2012, 23:30
Huh? I thought you didn't pick skills. Every character class gets the same skills at the same levels. Right? Every character of the same class is the same. You can just choose to have different load outs before leaving town… I guess you could call that a form of roleplaying, but it certainly is lightweight (i.e. short on consequences) compared to Oblivion.
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May 25th, 2012, 01:03
Your character has access to all skills, but you have to choose which ones he actually has. That's true of almost every RPG. The only thing different is the freedom you have to freely respec. And even that isn't all that different, as most modern RPGs let you respec.

Every character of the same class has the ability to be completely the same or completely different. Just like every character built using a skill tree. You can choose to take the same skills as the guy next to you, or you can choose to take completely different ones. In practice D3 characters tend to have a lot more variability to them then traditional ARPG skill tree characters.

Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Huh? I thought you didn't pick skills. Every character class gets the same skills at the same levels. Right? Every character of the same class is the same. You can just choose to have different load outs before leaving town… I guess you could call that a form of roleplaying, but it certainly is lightweight (i.e. short on consequences) compared to Oblivion.
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May 25th, 2012, 01:24
Uh no. Just no. Most REAL RPGs force you to make PERMANENT choices when you build your characters. Of course, there are a lot of people that use cheating progs to respec their characters. D3 allows you to cheat. Nice.

This is not an RPG. It's an action game with skills. Like Batman.

What you are calling MODERN RPGs are not. MMOs don't count, neither do JRPGs.
Last edited by Thrasher; May 25th, 2012 at 01:48.
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May 25th, 2012, 01:39
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
In practice D3 characters tend to have a lot more variability to them then traditional ARPG skill tree characters.
I think you ought to know that you aren't fooling anyone . Everyone knows that all members of a certain class will end up basically the same at level 60.
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May 25th, 2012, 02:11
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Uh no. Just no. Most REAL RPGs force you to make PERMANENT choices when you build your characters. Of course, there are a lot of people that use cheating progs to respec their characters. D3 allows you to cheat. Nice.

This is not an RPG. It's an action game with skills. Like Batman.

What you are calling MODERN RPGs are not. MMOs don't count, neither do JRPGs.
So then you don't consider Dragon Age, Mass Effect, or Kingdoms of Amulur to be modern RPGs. Skyrim is actually one of the few modern mainstream RPGs that doesn't allow respec. Most do.
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May 25th, 2012, 02:13
Yes, with over a billion possible ways to spec your character at lvl 60, clearly every class will look exactly the same at lvl 60. Your logic is astounding.

Originally Posted by drae View Post
I think you ought to know that you aren't fooling anyone . Everyone knows that all members of a certain class will end up basically the same at level 60.
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May 25th, 2012, 02:32
While I don't think every character will play the same at 60, a "billion possible" character templates is laughable.

Additionally, by and large, a lot of the abilities are lackluster, at least on my monk; I have often found myself struggling to settle not on which abilities I like most, but on which I dislike least.
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May 25th, 2012, 02:34
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
So then you don't consider Dragon Age, Mass Effect, or Kingdoms of Amulur to be modern RPGs. Skyrim is actually one of the few modern mainstream RPGs that doesn't allow respec. Most do.
Dragon Age Origins, doesn't allow you to respec. KoA only allow you to do it when you gain enough points of some sort. We all know that Mass Effect is weak sauce all around. Not good comparisons.

So if you want to encourage the weakening of the genre for casual players, then continue to call D3 an RPG. But the rest of us won't buy it.
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May 25th, 2012, 02:37
Hehe, you are of course correct there. Technically there are billions of combinations, but that's true with skill trees as well, when in reality you usually only see a few viable builds. But my original point definitely holds, that I see way more variation in mid level characters then I ever did in skill tree ARPGs. When i run into someone with the same level and class, it's common for us to have 0 abilities in common.

I haven't played the monk, but I actually find the wizard abilities to be pretty exciting. There are definitely way more abilities that I would like to have then I actually can.

Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
While I don't think every character will play the same at 60, a "billion possible" character templates is laughable.

Additionally, by and large, a lot of the abilities are lackluster, at least on my monk; I have often found myself struggling to settle not on which abilities I like most, but on which I dislike least.
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May 25th, 2012, 02:37
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
Yes, with over a billion possible ways to spec your character at lvl 60, clearly every class will look exactly the same at lvl 60. Your logic is astounding.
Someone's regurgitating rhetoric.
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May 25th, 2012, 02:43
Wrong. DA:O has a book you can buy which will respec you. And KoA only requires gold.

So yes I will continue to call D3 a RPG, thank you very much. You are of course free to disagree.

Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Dragon Age Origins, doesn't allow you to respec. KoA only allow you to do it when you gain enough points of some sort. We all know that Mass Effect is weak sauce all around. Not good comparisons.

So if you want to encourage the weakening of the genre for casual players, then continue to call D3 an RPG. But the rest of us won't buy it.
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May 25th, 2012, 03:22
Well DA:O didn't have that book when I played it. Let me guess, paid for DLC that allows you to cheat?

In any case the ability to respec is limited in those cases. D3 allows you to do it everytime you leave town. Not comparable. Respecing makes those examples less RPGs not D3 more of an RPG. Bad logic is bad logic.
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