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Default Diablo 3 - Why Fallout 1 Could be succesfull Today @ Pixelitis

June 28th, 2012, 10:57
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Simple question, then. Is Grimrock an RPG, and why?
Unfortunately, I haven't played Grimrock, and my knowledge of the game is pretty limited.
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June 28th, 2012, 11:12
No Grimrock is not an RPG.

There is no character progression dialogue as in 'to advance' or 'to develop' the character through dialogue - so there is no *choice variance* pertaining to the character. Therefore the player cannot add influence to the direction of the dialogue path relating to the outcome that leads to the conclusion via the choices….so there is no role to play.

You cannot play a role without dialogue.
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June 28th, 2012, 11:26
You cannot play a role without dialogue.
What if you were playing a character without the ability to speak? What if you were playing a creature that couldn't articulate words?

What if you - as a player - enjoyed the role of bashing monsters and developing your character in terms of power and skills?

You would be there telling the player that the role he feels he's playing isn't a role, because you demand dialogue for it to be a role?
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June 28th, 2012, 11:38
I imagine conceivably you could play a role in a game where your character cannot speak, but "someone who bashes monsters" is not exactly a role. And do you have a choice to do something other than bash the monsters? If there is no other option, then you are not even choosing to bash the monsters. There's not really a way to consider your character's backstory and personality and choose actions you think your character would want to do, which is how one plays a role.

When you select perks or attributes in the level up menu, it can be fun, and it can be a way to help define what sort of character you're playing. However, this is not roleplaying either, unless you are performing some sort of extreme meta-gaming mental gymnastics to pretend your character is studying arcane spell books somewhere with a master, learning some new spell, etc., in which case you don't even need to buy the game, you could just sit around and pretend.
Last edited by CountChocula; June 28th, 2012 at 12:13.
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June 28th, 2012, 12:07
I understand that you don't think it qualifies for a role.

Logically and semantically it does, though - which is really what we have to keep in mind when defining something.

1
a (1) : a character assigned or assumed <had to take on the role of both father and mother> (2) : a socially expected behavior pattern usually determined by an individual's status in a particular society b : a part played by an actor or singer
2
: a function or part performed especially in a particular operation or process <played a major role in the negotiations>
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June 28th, 2012, 13:45
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
Simple question, then. Is Grimrock an RPG, and why?
By the general definition, it is not a RPG. Why? It has no to little roleplay in it.

The game is not different from board games like Hero Quest, Warhammer Quest (basic version) or Space Hulk, which are not RPGs.

By the RPG elements definition, it is hard to see why this game should not be a RPG. It has RPG elements like exploration, character customization, party etc
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June 28th, 2012, 13:53
If Legend of Grimrock is not a RPG for those reasons, then neither is Wizardry, Might and Magic, Bards Tale, many of the Ultima games, Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, or any of the Gold Box Series of D&D games.

Any definition of a RPG that excludes all of the classic RPGS that defined the genre is, in my opnion, an extremely bad definition.

Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
No Grimrock is not an RPG.

There is no character progression dialogue as in 'to advance' or 'to develop' the character through dialogue - so there is no *choice variance* pertaining to the character. Therefore the player cannot add influence to the direction of the dialogue path relating to the outcome that leads to the conclusion via the choices….so there is no role to play.

You cannot play a role without dialogue.
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June 28th, 2012, 13:56
A role playing game without role playing is like a strategy game with no strategy, a fighting game with no fighting, a shooter with no shooting, a puzzler with no puzzles, a racing game with no racing, etc…(I think you see where I'm going with this )
That is.

Originally Posted by CountChocula View Post
The essence of a roleplaying game is not the math, but when your GM asks you that awesome question, "What do you want to do next?" and you use your imagination to consider your character, deciding what your character would want to do in a given situation.
In a RPG, roles are contextualized. They come as a set of behaviours, attitudes, codes, duties… that a character must adopt and abide by to associate his/her character to the assigned role.

It is only through actions that a character is built to his/her role.

Three key points for a RPG to be:
  1. Roles must be contextualized and associated to actions.
  2. Situations must be provided to allow the character to play the role by adopting the proper/unproper action
  3. A feedback system must exist to assess the quality of roleplaying
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June 28th, 2012, 13:59
Again, I don't think the genre is remotely defined even in P&P games. Go to any P&P RPG forum and you will find people arguing about what is and isn't roleplaying. Your statement that quality of roleplaying is defined by going against archetype is purely an opinion, many would disagree, and many play games like D&D which are merely pen and paper forms of the hack and slash found in Diablo.

As for character customization not being exclusive to RPGs, this is true, but then neither is playing a role. I certainly play a role when I play games like Grand Theft Auto or Call of Duty as well.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
By putting a word like roleplaying between " ", it tells all.

The genre RPG is defined. That the definition is not applied or respected is another story. That is one point not to bother with definitions. That is another to claim the definition does not exist.

There is no role in Diablo to be played. Roles are contextualized and roleplay is achieved by playing against an archetype, with the quality of roleplay being assessed through the deviation from the archetype.

Character customization leads to developp and equip a unique character, no matter the game genre this means is used.

There is no ground to make character customization an exclusivity to RPGs. Every other genres has the liberty to introduce it to support a gameplay end. On what ground a sportsgame should be denied character customization? And character customization does not make a sports game a RPG or featuring RPG elements.
In addition, role play can happen without a character customization system.

Same old, same old.
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June 28th, 2012, 14:01
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
If Legend of Grimrock is not a RPG for those reasons, then neither is Wizardry, Might and Magic, Bards Tale, many of the Ultima games, Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, or any of the Gold Box Series of D&D games.

Any definition of a RPG that excludes all of the classic RPGS that defined the genre is, in my opnion, an extremely bad definition.
It is answered in the previous posts with the circularity bit.

Either some games were introduced through the back door while not being RPGs, but nevertheless growing into classics. So yes, anyone sticking to the general definition, which is not a bad definition, but was not respected or applied, exclude classics which were not RPGs in the first place.
Unrespected definitions are not bad definitions.

Or these games belong to cRPG debut and therefore started small.

cRPGs is that computer games genre that took the technology evolution ride not to expand role playing but to decrease RPGs.
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June 28th, 2012, 14:04
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
Again, I don't think the genre is remotely defined even in P&P games. Go to any P&P RPG forum and you will find people arguing about what is and isn't roleplaying. Your statement that quality of roleplaying is defined by going against archetype is purely an opinion, many would disagree, and many play games like D&D which are merely pen and paper forms of the hack and slash found in Diablo.
A set of rules can be used in many ways. There is nothing that prevents using a roleplaying set of rules to play a skirmish game.

It is like claiming that because a rule can be used as lever, there is no definition of either a rule or a lever.
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June 28th, 2012, 14:06
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
I certainly play a role when I play games like Grand Theft Auto or Call of Duty as well.
How? There is little to no role playing in those games.

In those games, the character has a role. Which does not mean there is role playing.

In those games, roles are not contextualized. There is no archetype to play against. And there is no feedback mechanism.
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June 28th, 2012, 14:08
Again any definition that claims that classic RPGs, are not RPGs, is a bad definition, classical or not. And like I said, the classical definition is just your opinion. Many classical RPG players played games with no dialogue or story, that were just dungeon crawling for loot.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
It is answered in the previous posts with the circularity bit.

Either some games were introduced through the back door while not being RPGs, but nevertheless growing into classics. So yes, anyone sticking to the general definition, which is not a bad definition, but was not respected or applied, exclude classics which were not RPGs in the first place.
Unrespected definitions are not bad definitions.

Or these games belong to cRPG debut and therefore started small.

cRPGs is that computer games genre that took the technology evolution ride not to expand role playing but to decrease RPGs.
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June 28th, 2012, 14:15
Well I'm not even sure what the whole archetype to play again, and feedback system you are talking about even means. But certainly they are just your opinion about what is important.

But in many of these types of games (Well GTA more then call of duty) you certainly have a background, and your actions do effect the story and have consequences. If that's not sufficient, then I'm not sure that any modern RPG would fufill your definition of a roleplaying game.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
How? There is little to no role playing in those games.

In those games, the character has a role. Which does not mean there is role playing.

In those games, roles are not contextualized. There is no archetype to play against. And there is no feedback mechanism.
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June 28th, 2012, 14:16
Originally Posted by CountChocula View Post
I imagine conceivably you could play a role in a game where your character cannot speak, but "someone who bashes monsters" is not exactly a role.
It qualifies as a role. Most characters in a video game have a role. It does not mean roleplaying is involved.

A character can be a paladin. it does not mean that through gameplay you will roleplay it in a paladin.

The character is a paladin. Paladins are brave and honest. Therefore your character will behave bravely and honestly.
That is the sequence adopted by games like hitman, call of duty etc All the characters have a role. No roleplaying involved.

In a RPG, the sequence differs:

Paladins are brave and honest. The character behaves bravely and honestly. Therefore the character might be elegible as a paladin.

In many so called cRPGs, actions are totally disconnected from the outcome. In some cRPG games, a thief character can be without ever performing a thief characterizing action like theft.
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June 28th, 2012, 14:18
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
Again, I don't think the genre is remotely defined even in P&P games. Go to any P&P RPG forum and you will find people arguing about what is and isn't roleplaying.
People may define genres and categories of games in many different ways and disagree about these categorizations. However, "playing a role" is simply taking those actions you think your character would take.

Some players might have more elaborate or simple concepts about their character, and the extent of the mechanics allowing you to play out the role might be more limited or expansive, depending on the game, but ultimately, either you are playing a role or you aren't.

There may be games not labeled as RPGs that allow some form of roleplaying, just as there are games not labeled shooters that may incorporate sniper rifles. But I've never seen a shooter without guns, nor a role playing game without role playing.
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June 28th, 2012, 14:20
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
Well I'm not even sure what the whole archetype to play again, and feedback system you are talking about even means. But certainly they are just your opinion about what is important.

But in many of these types of games (Well GTA more then call of duty) you certainly have a background, and your actions do effect the story and have consequences.
If you have ever played a RPG elsewhere than on a computer, you should be familiar to archetypes of various roles as most if not all roleplaying books provide examples of them to allow roleplaying. They are usually individuals who provide examples of what it means to of that role.

As to the feedback system, it is usually applied by the GM who the one who assesses if you behave properly/unproperly compared to the archetype.

Background is not role, and a RPG does not need a story. It requires situations to allow roleplaying, situations that might be strung into a story.
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June 28th, 2012, 14:26
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
It qualifies as a role. Most characters in a video game have a role. It does not mean roleplaying is involved.

A character can be a paladin. it does not mean that through gameplay you will roleplay it in a paladin.

The character is a paladin. Paladins are brave and honest. Therefore your character will behave bravely and honestly.
That is the sequence adopted by games like hitman, call of duty etc All the characters have a role. No roleplaying involved.

In a RPG, the sequence differs:

Paladins are brave and honest. The character behaves bravely and honestly. Therefore the character might be elegible as a paladin.

In many so called cRPGs, actions are totally disconnected from the outcome. In some cRPG games, a thief character can be without ever performing a thief characterizing action like theft.
I wasn't referring to class archetypes or stereotypes, etc.

"Someone who bashes monsters" is not a role. Archibald the Brave, who seeks to avenge the murder of his barbarian chieftain at the hands of a goblin warlord, on the other hand, could be an interesting character to play. Whether you can actually role play Archibald in the game or not depends on whether you can choose actions you think Archibald would take.
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June 28th, 2012, 14:29
Originally Posted by CountChocula View Post
I'm wasn't referring to class archetypes or stereotypes, etc.

"Someone who bashes monsters" is not a role.
Roles are more than classes but a monster basher can be a role.
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June 28th, 2012, 14:33
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Roles are more than classes but a monster basher can be a role.
"Likes to bash monsters" could be one trait of a character, but "someone who bashes monsters" is simply not a character.
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