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Default VtM: Bloodlines - Unofficial Patch v8.1 Released

June 28th, 2012, 04:40
Dhruin,
Planescape is different enough from the Baldur's Gate setting / theme i think. I also didnt say you should completely ignore the strengths of the characters or story, just translate them to different settings and imagine if it still would be a solid enough game.

I guess the poor level design and combat was, for me personally, so bad that i just couldnt see past it.
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June 28th, 2012, 05:02
Different "enough" - perhaps - but still closer than the transition you asked for: Bloodlines into a fantasy setting. Hence, I asked you to consider the same sort of transition: PS:T as a Vampire game.

Anyway, now you're on point: you couldn't see past the combat and other things, which is perfectly fair enough. Personally, I'd swap great characters for combat (which I rarely find compelling) any day of the week - just my personal taste. But it has little to do with the subject of vampires as such.

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June 28th, 2012, 05:21
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
KOTOR = Jade Empire, similar enough. The core mechanics and design is so good that it doesnt matter that BG is typical fantasy, it still works great. Same with Jade Empire (not typical fantasy, but different enough from Star Wars).
Good core mechanics and design? I'm not sure if you played the same games I did.

Take away their setting/themes, and Jade Empire & KotOR were mediocre at best. Heck, KotOR was mostly mediocre to me even as it was.


Originally Posted by vurt View Post
I guess the poor level design and combat was, for me personally, so bad that i just couldnt see past it.
I don't see how VtM:B had poor level design, but to each his own.
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June 28th, 2012, 05:31
Dhruin,
No, i would not play PS:T in the beta source engine with crappy level design and loading screens every 1-2 minutes. PS:T also has crappy combat so they're equally bad in that regard, but level design and everything else was top-notch, unlike VtM:Bloodlines.

JDR13,
well you can't take away settings completely and have a game in a complete nothingness. KoTOR had a lot of memorable characters and the combat was fun, level design was varied and nice enough i think, though it suffered the same problem as VtMB that its too empty, boring corridors with a few crates thrown in for good measure..

What's wrong with the core mechanics and design in BG or PS:T? I think it's amazing how well those games have aged and i still think they look nice and have great design.
Last edited by vurt; June 28th, 2012 at 05:45.
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June 28th, 2012, 05:51
I didn't say anything about the core mechanics of BG or PS:T. Although I don't think PS:T could stand on its own without the story/characters. Combat was bland, and there wasn't enough variety in the enemies, weapons/armor, items, etc.

BG is different in that regard. Imo it would be possible to make major changes to the characters and story in BG 1&2 and they would still be great games just on gameplay alone.

Your description of KotOR is a lot different from my own though. I thought the combat was very average, and the only thing that really stood out about the game was the plot twist. The level design was nothing like VtM:B's either. At least there is some level of exploration in VtM:B. The levels in KotOR are almost completely linear
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June 28th, 2012, 06:04
VtM:B's design was extremely linear apart from the city hubs where you can free roam, KOTOR1-2 has a few places like that too where you're free to explore and take side quests, the difference is those places are far more diverse than VtM:B's boring city hubs.
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June 28th, 2012, 06:17
That simply isn't true. The levels in VtM:B were nowhere near as linear as those in KotOR. The level design in KotOR was completely "corridor" in nature with maybe the exception of the desert in Tatooine.
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June 28th, 2012, 07:09
There's a lot of places in KOTOR 1-2 that are just as open as Tatooine, most worlds are open like that, and the areas are a lot larger than those in vtm:B. Vtm:B takes place usually inside buildings, in sewers, storage buildings etc, the typical generic corridor setting. The copy/paste abuse is also extreme with apartments looking exactly the same. If it wasnt for this fact i would probably have enjoyed this game like everyone else in the thread Uninteresting combat isnt a deal breaker for me (i still play Morrowind and the combat is beyond horrible)..
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June 28th, 2012, 07:24
I visited GameBanshee to refresh my memory. Is this the gold standard we are talking about when you say "just as open as Tatooine?

http://www.gamebanshee.com/starwarsk…ns/dunesea.php

Bleh.

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June 28th, 2012, 07:29
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
There's a lot of places in KOTOR 1-2 that are just as open as Tatooine, most worlds are open like that, and the areas are a lot larger than those in vtm:B.
I'm starting to question whether or not you've actually played these games.
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June 28th, 2012, 09:10
Not sure what you're trying to prove with posting a portion of a map Dhruin. Post your epic open world map of vtm:b? Apart from the city hubs it's restricted in the exact same way, often worse.
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June 28th, 2012, 10:15
I am disputing this:

VtM:B's design was extremely linear apart from the city hubs where you can free roam, KOTOR1-2 has a few places like that too where you're free to explore and take side quests, the difference is those places are far more diverse than VtM:B's boring city hubs.
…by showing the maps in KotOR are not superior. I'm not claiming Bloodlines as the pinnacle of level design but I'm also not accepting your claim of KotOR's superiority. They're both small, linear and non-interactive. For me, representing a few city blocks as a current-day city works better than representing a far-future world-spanning mega-city like Taris with two intersecting corridors.

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June 28th, 2012, 12:17
this reminds me of how i got trashed for calling BG's games turds …
it is a game restricted to night time L.A. of course you are supposed to either be underground or have small areas on the surface cause you know a night doesn't last forever and you have to finish your business quickly before sunrise, for me this was one of the biggest immersion factors.
Yes game's second part is not as great as the first because the developers run out of time and money yet besides that you won't find many Troika haters in an RPG site we are okay with what they managed to create given the situation.
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June 28th, 2012, 15:12
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
I am disputing this:

…by showing the maps in KotOR are not superior. I'm not claiming Bloodlines as the pinnacle of level design but I'm also not accepting your claim of KotOR's superiority. They're both small, linear and non-interactive. For me, representing a few city blocks as a current-day city works better than representing a far-future world-spanning mega-city like Taris with two intersecting corridors.
Current-day Los Angeles without cars? That's almost more unbelivable than anything super-natural happening in that game. Just one of many immersion breaking things in Bloodlines. Interactivity within the world is crap in both games. Taris isnt built like a current-day city, i had no problems with accepting the design, it obviously suffers from being too small, but the same could be said for Los Angeles in VtM:b..

Tragos: Sunrise? I'm pretty sure you're confusing it with being a vampire in some other game (TES?) There's just night time in VtM:B, in Oblivion for example you actually have to avoid sunrise and crawl into some undergrorund area or house during the day to not get hurt. Maybe i misunderstod and you mean you pretend you have to be quick? I dont see how that is very immersive though, i think i prefer when i actually dont have to pretend there's cars or day/night cycles etc.
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June 28th, 2012, 20:47
Actually, there is quite a bit of interactivity in VtM:B. You could could turn on televisions and see broadcasts, open refrigerators or cupboards, etc., check files on computers, listen to messages on telephone answering machines.

Again… I'm starting to question if you've actually played it.
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June 28th, 2012, 21:09
You can use monitors, open / break into chests and lockers, use / hack computers and droids, read news etc in KOTOR too. I still wouldnt call that very interactive, that's pretty standard i would say.

Ultima 7, Divine Divinity or TES has tremendously more interactive worlds where almost any object can be picked up and be used in a meaningful (or meaningless) way. Every door can be opened, every drawer etc. Neither KOTOR or VtM:B is even close to that kind of interactivity.
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June 28th, 2012, 21:27
I'm not comparing VtM:B to Ultima VII, but stop trying to pretend that KotOR is on the same level. It's not.
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June 28th, 2012, 22:03
So far you havent proven your point though. It's neither more interactive or have better level design. KOTOR 1-2 are also solid games all the way through (modded they are even better), while Vtm:B is criticized even by the fans for the later rushed level design and gameplay. I didn't even fancy the first levels (except for the Ocean House which does deserve some praise) so i can't even imagine how bad the later levels must be.
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June 28th, 2012, 22:15
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
I didn't even fancy the first levels (except for the Ocean House which does deserve some praise) so i can't even imagine how bad the later levels must be.
As I suspected, you haven't even played the full game. So how far did you play? Did you even finish Santa Monica? It doesn't sound like it..

And yes, it is more interactive than KotOR. You can keep claiming otherwise and continue looking foolish if that's what you really want to do, but you should at least play through the game first if you want people to take you seriously.
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June 28th, 2012, 22:24
It's your own fault for not following the thread, i've already explained this. I got to the second city, you took a cab there (only car in the game, lol?). I did some quests there before finally deciding that it wasnt worth my time. I've watched "let's play" videos of the later levels and i'm glad i decided to stop. I highly doubt the interactivity changes dramatically for the better in the later levels. Everything i've seen and heard from fans on the vtm forum points to the opposite, the game gets worse towards the end. You're free to prove me wrong ofcourse, please give examples.
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