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Default Racism is natural, anti racism is not

July 13th, 2012, 13:42
Originally Posted by badmofo View Post
As for the Australian Aborigines Damian - I wouldn't want people living next to me who trash their house and yell all night long either (and oh my can they yell!), but you have to admit that as a Country we have treated Aboriginals horribly. And we're still doing it! It's easy to say "Stay in school. Stop abusing alcohol. Get yourself a job". But the average Australian is born into a world where alcohol abuse, etc is unacceptable. For some people it's all they've ever known.
Yes I agree. We introduced them to alcohol, they need government intervention ot get their kids out of the habit of that behaviour. But our government doesnt have the balls to say "we screwed you over so we want to make sure kids dont grow up messed up like you did".
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July 13th, 2012, 13:45
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Xenophobia, ethnocentrism are not racism.

Even though it has to be connected with the RPG definition situation, when everything and anything has to a RPG. So everything and anything can be racism.
Eh, i believe xenophobia and ethnocentrism are kinds of racism. I mean prefering one race over another is like the very definition of racism isnt it?
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July 13th, 2012, 13:50
No doubt about that. It is somehow connected to that RPG stuff. It is hard to see how the trend should be limited to RPGs.
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July 13th, 2012, 13:50
Originally Posted by badmofo View Post
Ahh racism - everyone does it, but most know they shouldn't. We'll never be rid of it though, it's one of many ugly human traits.
Most do not but those who do believe everybody does it. People are evolved to react to stark differences in appearances but that doesn't transit to racism that requires much much more in the interpretion and classification of such differences, including seeing some differences as relevant. One of the reasons I study what I study (discrimination/extremism) is based on me having strong difficulties to grasp the categories some people use the way they use it. I am also pretty much retarded at classifying peoples "race" or etnicity based on appearances.

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July 13th, 2012, 13:55
Originally Posted by badmofo View Post
Ahh racism - everyone does it, but most know they shouldn't. We'll never be rid of it though, it's one of many ugly human traits.

We're just animals after all.
Everyone was so just doing it that this stuff was invented in the 1500s. But it has to be one of the many ugly human traits.

The story is more that newly built countries like the US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, have been predominantly using racism as the structuring force in their society and as they have emerged as mattering societies, especially the US, their cultural assumptions have been spreading around, taking over.
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July 13th, 2012, 14:21
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Most do not but those who do believe everybody does it. People are evolved to react to stark differences in appearances but that doesn't transit to racism that requires much much more in the interpretion and classification of such differences, including seeing some differences as relevant. One of the reasons I study what I study (discrimination/extremism) is based on me having strong difficulties to grasp the categories some people use the way they use it. I am also pretty much retarded at classifying peoples "race" or etnicity based on appearances.
JemyM my friend you need to work on your communication skills, I never can quite understand what you're getting at. But I'm guessing you think most people aren't racist - really? Not even a little bit? Some are more honest with themselves with others I guess.

And as for you ChienAboyeur! Newly built countries are more racist you say? The Chinese are pretty damn racist and they've been around a while.

I'm not here saying racism is OK, but like all ugly / silly human behavior (lying, hypocrisy, watching reality TV), we need to accept it and control it.
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July 13th, 2012, 14:44
Originally Posted by badmofo View Post
And as for you ChienAboyeur! Newly built countries are more racist you say? The Chinese are pretty damn racist and they've been around a while.

I'm not here saying racism is OK, but like all ugly / silly human behavior (lying, hypocrisy, watching reality TV), we need to accept it and control it.
The Chinese are racist? Indeed, when you call ethnocentrism and xenophobia racism, you end with everything being racism. Same way as for RPG.

The Chinese are not racist, they despize Japanese a lot more than many other different race population. Japanese and Chinese (which is a nationality by the way and a collection of various ethnies) are the same race.
Once again, it is the same RPG can be anything or anyone has never found a fitting definition for RPGs scam.

Newly built countries have seen their society much more shaped by racism than older built countries, which is expected as racism did not exist when certain of these countries developped their societies.
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July 13th, 2012, 15:49
Originally Posted by badmofo View Post
JemyM my friend you need to work on your communication skills, I never can quite understand what you're getting at. But I'm guessing you think most people aren't racist - really? Not even a little bit? Some are more honest with themselves with others I guess.
Yes. According to wikipedia; "Racism is behavior or beliefs motivated by racial stereotypes, it generally includes practices of racial discrimination, and ideologies of racial supremacy and hierarchy. Some sources emphasize that racism involves the belief that different racial groups are characterized by intrinsic characteristics or abilities and that some such groups are therefore naturally superior to others, or follow practices that discriminate against members of particular racial groups, for example by perpetuating unequal access to resources between groups."

Most people do not believe this. Note that simply spotting stark differences isn't racist, racism includes much more, including seeing people with similar appearances as groups, the belief that such groups have unique character traits and the belief that such groups should be treated in a hierarchy where one belongs on top of another.

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July 13th, 2012, 19:24
I know that numbers are difficult to obtain but I'm of an opinion that there are less racists than badmofo thinks ("everyone does it, but most know they shouldn't") but more than Jemy hopes
Last edited by zahratustra; July 14th, 2012 at 01:26.
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July 13th, 2012, 21:09
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Not quite sure I understand you there. Neither race or culture should be a justification in that example.
What I mean is that feelings are beyond our control - so they're all justified. It's our actions that need justification.

He seems to be making a general connection between those acts and their race though.
Yup, that's what I meant.

Not that I haven't been guilty of that in the past. If certain things are prevalent among a certain people, it can sometimes be hard not to generalize.
I don't think there's anything wrong with recognising patterns of behavior in a culture - and one would be a fool to deny that there ARE patterns. I just think it's important not to confuse that with race - or assume your own culture is superior in any way.
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July 14th, 2012, 00:05
Just to answer one of Damien's earlier questions on Reverse Racism: Racism generally refers to a majority race impacting a minority one, while reverse racism has the minority (say Australian Aboriginals) having a significant impact on the majority. Aboriginals can obtain things which non-aboriginals can't (such as free taxis)- this is considered a form of reverse racism.

IMO, all people are basically the same though affected differently by their culture and upbringing. Racism is totally abhorent and has no place in any society. Sadly that is not always the case!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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July 14th, 2012, 11:21
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Xenophobia, ethnocentrism are not racism.

Even though it has to be connected with the RPG definition situation, when everything and anything has to a RPG. So everything and anything can be racism.


————————————————————————————————————————————————————
The original question posed by the thread starter was if racism was natural and i explained why i thought it was.
The point i was making was that i believe we are pre-programmed to respond with hostility to anything different or foregin wich is where i believe racism starts.


Quote DArtagnan
That's a pretty interesting statement. Do you stand by it, or do you wish to rephrase?

I can rephrase if you like:
The less intelligent or educated an individual is the more likely he/she is to seek out and join a gang/cult/religion/whatever that form a close knit community who view outsiders or spesific groups of outsiders as something less then themselves.
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July 14th, 2012, 11:47
Originally Posted by Biff The Understudy View Post
The original question posed by the thread starter was if racism was natural and i explained why i thought it was.
The point i was making was that i believe we are pre-programmed to respond with hostility to anything different or foregin wich is where i believe racism starts.
The OP provides assumptions that go barely hand in hand with your points.

Once again, down RPG path, will be different and foreign what fits the preset conclusion, giving no depth to any analysis.

Gender: could be stated as a difference. Yet toddlers do not always react with hostility to the parent of a different gender than theirs.

Foreign: adoption. Toddlers will react accordingly.

Etc
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July 14th, 2012, 12:38
Originally Posted by Biff The Understudy View Post
The point i was making was that i believe we are pre-programmed to respond with hostility to anything different or foregin wich is where i believe racism starts.
Yes, and no. It is true that we are pre-programmed to respond with hostility to anything different and appearances we aren't familiar with will provoke a such reaction. We will react to fat, slim, tall, small, bald, an uncommon hair color, an unusual birthmark etc. We will also react to a difference in skin color. The question I ask, is this alone racism? It seems like cherrypicking one reaction out of many and treat that different.

To really make the point, compare the following:
Originally Posted by That's racist!
* Child: Look ma, that man is fat. Others: Oh, an embarrassing child.
* Child: Look ma, that man is slim. Others: Oh, an embarrassing child.
* Child: Look ma, that man is tall. Others: Oh, an embarrassing child.
* Child: Look ma, that man is small. Others: Oh, an embarrassing child.
* Child: Look ma, that man is bald. Others: Oh, an embarrassing child.
* Child: Look ma, that man have red hair. Others: Oh, an embarrassing child.
* Child: Look ma, that man have a red spot on his chin. Others: Oh, an embarrassing child.
* Child: Look ma, that man is brown. Others: Thats racist!
No. I say racism begin at a later stage, the mere reaction of the difference doesn't make a child racist. Note that racism isn't only pointing out a visual difference, it's interpreting that difference in a whole line of assumptions about the individuals character.

Using the examples above, the mother can in each case reply to the child something like "hush, do not point at people just because they look different". But what if the mother reacted like this?
to the fat man and instead replied "yes, he's fat because he have bad character" but "hush, do not point at people just because they look different" to every other case, including the "brown man"?

To really make the point, compare the following:
Originally Posted by The Fat Man
* Child: Look ma, that man is fat. Mother: Yes, he's fat because he have bad character
* Child: Look ma, that man is brown. Mother: Hush, do not point at people just because they look different
… or …

Originally Posted by The Ginger Head
* Child: Look ma, that man have red hair. Mother: Be warned, that means that the man have beastly desires and moral degeneration
* Child: Look ma, that man is brown. Mother: Hush, do not point at people just because they look different
… or ofcourse …

Originally Posted by The Racist
* Child: Look ma, that man is brown. Mother: Yes, negroes are brown, aggressive and criminal but they make good farming tools.
… or …
* Child: Look ma, that man is brown. Mother: Yes, that means that he is an engineer.
And finally…

Originally Posted by The non-racist
* Child: Look ma, that man is fat. Mother: Yes, he's fat because he have bad character
* Child: Look ma, that man is slim. Mother: He's probably anorectic.
* Child: Look ma, that man is tall. Mother: Yeah, and look at his shoes, they are enormous lol
* Child: Look ma, that man is small. Mother: Wait until you hear the dwarf speak, it's so funny.
* Child: Look ma, that man is bald. Mother: Yeah, don't that egghead look silly
* Child: Look ma, that man have red hair. Mother: Be warned, that means that the man have beastly desires and moral degeneration
* Child: Look ma, that man have a red spot on his chin. Mother: Probably lipstick
* Child: Look ma, that man is brown. Mother: Hush, do not point at people just because they look different
In each situation, the values of someone else either loads the noted difference with non-meaning or meaning and this is the vital component for racism. Note in my example of the racist did one example that mirrors negative cultural prejudices about black people and one example that is out of the blue. I did so because I wanted to point out the cultural and transferred component of racism. People do not go around and call dark skinned men "engineers", at least I haven't heard of anyone who does.

So we have the case where the mother teaches the child to disregard the difference as non-important, the case where the mother teaches the child all the cultural prejudices against dark skinned people and the case where the mother teaches the child a completely odd interpretion of the visual appearance. Only the middle makes the child into a racist and that's where racism begins. The last one is negative in some contexts and positive in others, beyond being completely false.

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An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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July 14th, 2012, 12:42
Originally Posted by Biff The Understudy View Post
The less intelligent or educated an individual is the more likely he/she is to seek out and join a gang/cult/religion/whatever that form a close knit community who view outsiders or spesific groups of outsiders as something less then themselves.
That doesn't make them any less racist.
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July 14th, 2012, 13:00
Originally Posted by Biff The Understudy View Post
The less intelligent or educated an individual is the more likely he/she is to seek out and join a gang/cult/religion/whatever that form a close knit community who view outsiders or spesific groups of outsiders as something less then themselves.
From the research it seems that a more intelligent and educated individual is more likely to be recruited into a cult, if that education is in a subject that isn't about human interaction. Many of the 9/11 guys were engineers and it's not uncommon to find highly educated and intelligent people in these fields.

The psychological reason for this is that high intelligence form overconfidence in ones capacity to make reasonbased decisions and thus the capacity to see through a cult. They are however not aware of the value of experience and they aren't familiar with how their emotions have the capacity to override their reason. This makes them very easy to manipulate. At the same time they are also harder to convince that they are wrong since they are already overconfident is that they are on the right path. Without the experience required to see through the illusions they rational brain makes the illusion very resistant.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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July 14th, 2012, 14:25
I can rephrase if you like:
The less intelligent or educated an individual is the more likely he/she is to seek out and join a gang/cult/religion/whatever that form a close knit community who view outsiders or spesific groups of outsiders as something less then themselves.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. If we're talking about joining up with other people to get a sense of community - then it has absolutely no direct relationship with intelligence or education. Also, young people are especially prone to "recruitment" - and given the young age, they have only a limited education - and that goes for all young people. Intelligence is not a substitute for experience.

In some areas of the world, it's simply a means of survival - or a way of making a living that you wouldn't otherwise have.

As for looking down on others - I'd agree that it ties into ignorance, but not intelligence. I've met a lot of intelligent people who consider themselves superior for that reason alone. Again, intelligence is not knowledge or wisdom.

You also have a lot of people joining "cults" or obscure religions because they're emotionally unstable and they're seeking a way to get a sense of meaning and direction in life. This, too, can be a means of survival - and I would be careful blaming a lack of intelligence or education for it. Just like educated and intelligent people can become alcoholics or drug addicts - so can they become dependent on a social bond with people they enjoy being with - and the sense of community it can bring.
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July 14th, 2012, 18:03
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
No. I say racism begin at a later stage, the mere reaction of the difference doesn't make a child racist. Note that racism isn't only pointing out a visual difference, it's interpreting that difference in a whole line of assumptions about the individuals character.
But of course! Noticing that somebody is different is natural/harmless. Thinking that he/she is different therefore inferior is not.
However, for me, it doesn't mean that you can't call a person of color an asshole as long as his/hers assholism isn't based on the color of their skin.
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July 14th, 2012, 19:06
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
From the research it seems that a more intelligent and educated individual is more likely to be recruited into a cult, if that education is in a subject that isn't about human interaction. Many of the 9/11 guys were engineers and it's not uncommon to find highly educated and intelligent people in these fields.

The psychological reason for this is that high intelligence form overconfidence in ones capacity to make reasonbased decisions and thus the capacity to see through a cult. They are however not aware of the value of experience and they aren't familiar with how their emotions have the capacity to override their reason. This makes them very easy to manipulate. At the same time they are also harder to convince that they are wrong since they are already overconfident is that they are on the right path. Without the experience required to see through the illusions they rational brain makes the illusion very resistant.
Oh, you were doing so well. Post 34 was surprisingly good. And then you fell into your typical ivory tower hoodoo. Allow me to borrow a structure and use it on the self delusion I bolded above:

"People that study are susceptible to programming, but I have studied psychology and therefore I am uniquely resistant to such pitfalls due to the speciailized knowledge I gained."
"People that study are susceptible to programming, but I have studied the Bible and therefore I am uniquely resistant to such pitalls due to the specialized knowledge I gained."

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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July 14th, 2012, 19:17
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Oh, you were doing so well. Post 34 was surprisingly good. And then you fell into your typical ivory tower hoodoo. Allow me to borrow a structure and use it on the self delusion I bolded above:

"People that study are susceptible to programming, but I have studied psychology and therefore I am uniquely resistant to such pitfalls due to the speciailized knowledge I gained."
"People that study are susceptible to programming, but I have studied the Bible and therefore I am uniquely resistant to such pitalls due to the specialized knowledge I gained."
If you knew how disturbing it is to study psychology (you get more and more scared by your own thoughts) you wouldn't even had made this post. One really important question from earlier this year was during a lecture in Social Psychology that dealt with the question whether or not someone aware of the mechanisms have the ability to resist. Some say a blatant no. Others try to plan ahead, they know they will probably not be able to resist so they plan to avoid the situation alltogether or they hope they can create a script that they can lock into and follow when they discover they are in a such situation (which is what I was referring to above, when (or if) you realize you are victim of something like lovebombing, the script say "run" and so you run). No one say that they can resist because they know about social influence and emotional manipulation. To the contrary, when you know how powerful that stuff is you get scared. And that's partially why people hate psychology, people like to feel they are in control.

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