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Default America - a dhimmi nation

July 29th, 2012, 01:41
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
I assume that your issue that the man should be the head of the family instead of equality for both sexes.
My first issue is that it's wrong. All mammals consists of males and females, saying one is created for the other is like saying the sky is created for the earth. It shows blatant ignorance of nature. What makes it sexist is that it also suggest a hierarchy based on that flawed idea.

Originally Posted by Damian View Post
Look at all the countries with equality inthe household they have 50% and over divorce rates, while the countries with men as leaders of the household have 1-2% divorce rates. In the 19th century in Australia(according to an athiest friend of mine) when catholicism was popular they enjoyed low divorce rates too.
I have to ask, did what you just wrote make sense to you or did you just copied/paste this from somewhere? You are speaking about divorce as an argument for inequality? Did you think before posting this?

Originally Posted by Damian View Post
In exhange for leadership it says in the bible that the man should love the wife as much as the christ loved the church, ie if it came down to it he should willingly give his life for the wife.
This is the most stupid thing I have heard for quite some time. If you are serious you obviously know nothing about leadership.

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July 29th, 2012, 02:24
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
But frankly that doesnt work. Look at all the countries with equality inthe household they have 50% and over divorce rates, while the countries with men as leaders of the household have 1-2% divorce rates.
That's the kind of statistics you tend to get when divorcing your spouse is social suicide.

If you look at the norm in Sweden leaving your spouse isn't seen as strange at all because two pepole sharing lives like that requires that a lot of things click, and you can't really know if most of them will until you actually try. In other words, there are a lot of things that can go wrong and therefore divorce is expected to happen a lot. In fact, if you're in a relationship that's working poorly divorce is actually seen as something good, because that gives both partners a chance to find someone else with whom they can have a relationship that works better.

With that kind of view you're going to get a lot of divorces regardless of how the power structure within the relationships in question work.

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July 29th, 2012, 02:40
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Id like to point out that martyrdom and Christian prosecution is very strongly tied to the belief system and is often drastically exaggerated for political reasons.

Even worse, it's often the case that any persecution will eventually be re-packaged and sold as "Christian persecution". Extermination of Jews under the roman empire = Christian persecution. Oppression of religious minorities due to lack of religious freedom = Christian persecution. Even the nazi's extermination of minority Christian groups (carried out by Christians) = Christian persecution. Throwing out Christians who do missionary work where they shouldn't = Christian persecution. Criticizing Christians = Christian persecution.

It is very important that Christians are in the eyes of the public a persecuted group, no matter it's size, it's own actions and the situation for non-christians in the same situation.
I'd also point out that some of the consistently predictable sources for extreme persecution of religious groups through history come from what outside observers would tend to view as being from the same major faith category. Consider the history of the Catholic Church and how it dealt with apostates and heretics. The definition and prosecution of heresy was not at its inception a cudgel to wield against what we would consider to be non-Christians but rather to crush those Christians who threatened the Church's monopoly and brand (the first person executed as a "heretic" was himself a catholic bishop who espoused holiness to be something that did not quite match papal opulence.) Many protestant faiths were no better in their early days - particularly when they were intertwined with the power of the state and had bot the means and the motivation to jealously guard their brand monopoly.

Consider also the violent clashes and histories of oppression amongst the major branches of Islam. When a single religion establishes itself as the overwhelming dominant spiritual force within a culture the greatest threat to the hegemony of those at its head comes not so much from faiths which seem distinct in some way but rather from those which they may feel are counterfeit. If I own all suppliers of fresh fish in a region, is my position threatened more by a man opening up a burger joint or some fishmonger who moves to town and doesn't seem to be getting his fish from me?

This is how faiths which establish and maintain hegemony with the support of the state's monopoly on the lawful use of force evolve. A dictatorial force declares their nation to be of a kind of faith which becomes the official faith. Then come the official interpretation of the faith which becomes the one true interpretation. This in turn becomes the only allowable interpretation and those who seek to usurp the right to interpret from those in power are seen and treated as one of the most imminent kinds of threat to the established brand.

In Iran, legally resident and practicing but non-evangelizing Christians could well be considered second class citizens. Compared to them those who practice Sufi Islam have it one notch worse - they're not even allowed to practice their faith. So while a Christian who does not evangelize may find some degree of "tolerance at a distance" as well as mistreatment varying from place to place and with the different social strata, a "counterfeit" of the "true" faith demands far more active and regimented persecution.
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July 29th, 2012, 04:16
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
My first issue is that it's wrong. All mammals consists of males and females, saying one is created for the other is like saying the sky is created for the earth. It shows blatant ignorance of nature. What makes it sexist is that it also suggest a hierarchy based on that flawed idea.
Eh what there is no equality in nature either. Some times the males are the leaders other times it is the females.



I have to ask, did what you just wrote make sense to you or did you just copied/paste this from somewhere? You are speaking about divorce as an argument for inequality? Did you think before posting this?
It makes perfect sense to me. People divorce because the marriage setup doesnt work. And it was relating to the passage 1 Corinthians 11.



This is the most stupid thing I have heard for quite some time. If you are serious you obviously know nothing about leadership.
You have to explain this one to me.
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July 29th, 2012, 05:01
Damian, Jemy can never explain something spiritual, especially the Bible which IS a spiritual book from his purely secular, humanist, atheistic position, even though he thinks he can. I refuse to cast pearls before swine which is why I no longer waste my time trying to argue with him. We are SO far apart in our poles of understanding that we could agree on nothing except that the other person is totally wrong!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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July 29th, 2012, 05:05
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
Damian, Jemy can never explain something spiritual, especially the Bible which IS a spiritual book from his purely secular, humanist, atheistic position, even though he thinks he can. I refuse to cast pearls before swine which is why I no longer waste my time trying to argue with him. We are SO far apart in our poles of understanding that we could agree on nothing except that the other person is totally wrong!!
I guess you are right. I figured after getting the degree in psychology he would reason things better. I guess not.
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July 29th, 2012, 05:07
Human psychology tries to totally undermine the basic precepts of Christianity and for that matter most any religion. It is MAN centred, while most religions are God centred. That means a totally contrary perspective on everything!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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July 29th, 2012, 05:28
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
Eh what there is no equality in nature either. Some times the males are the leaders other times it is the females.
Sometimes the males lead.
Sometimes the females lead.
There is no equality.

Does that make sense to you?
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July 29th, 2012, 05:58
Originally Posted by Korplem View Post
Sometimes the males lead.
Sometimes the females lead.
There is no equality.

Does that make sense to you?
Yes it does.

EDIT: Let me explain, some animals have the males as leaders otehr animals have females as leaders.
Last edited by Damian; July 29th, 2012 at 06:30.
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July 29th, 2012, 09:37
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
It makes perfect sense to me. People divorce because the marriage setup doesnt work.
That claim is based on the flawed assumption that if the couple doesn't divorce it shows that their marriage works. What it really does show is that the couple precieves that staying married works better than divorcing. That might be because they think their marriage actually does work well, but it might also be a question of, for instance, the social consequences of divorcing being so severe that a marriage has to become really, really disfunctional before divorce even starts to become worth it.

To get back to your point that equality leads to divorce, unequality in marriages tends to happen in conservative societies. And concertavite societies also tend to frown on divorce (it's part of the same package, so to speak). From what I've seen marriage equality actually leads to less divorce, since the wives resent their husbands less.

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July 29th, 2012, 10:05
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
To get back to your point that equality leads to divorce, unequality in marriages tends to happen in conservative societies. And concertavite societies also tend to frown on divorce (it's part of the same package, so to speak). From what I've seen marriage equality actually leads to less divorce, since the wives resent their husbands less.

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I dont think that it leads to less divorce, all i see from my limited looks into peoples lives is that a lack of a leader in the marriage resulats in divorce(be it male or female). In our society it is assumed that it is almost wrogn for the man to take the lead, but in most cultures tahat let the man lead they are happier to stay together.

Top 10 reasons:

Lack of commitment towards marriage, sexual incompatibility and infidelity
Commitment may be lacking in one of the partners because marriage happens not always out of love. It could be seen as making a good deal and when it is found that the deal is not what he or she expected divorce happens. Besides, people looking for quick solutions cannot sustain marriage for long.

Philandering habits die hard and this leads to infidelity. People with uncontrollable libido or unhappy with his or her partner cannot be loyal to their partners. So when the wife or husband comes to know of his or her partner cheating on him or her divorce turns out to be the answer. The question that arises is when to divorce.

2. Lack of communication between spouses

Without communication no relationship can be effective. Keeping your resentments simmering within, your partner does not come to know what is happening with you and this is likely to create distance between you and your partner.

3.Abandonment, Alcohol Addiction, Substance Abuse

When one of the partners deserts his or her partner for quite some time or a longer period divorce emerges as the answer. One leaves his or her partner because of the latter’s bad habits.

Alcohol addiction and abuse prevent marital bliss because of the change in behavior pattern which makes an adverse impact upon mental peace and physical security.

4. Physical Abuse, Sexual Abuse and Emotional Abuse
These abuses are not uncommon and tolerating them is not good and a person who loves himself or herself would not put with such abuses.

5.Inability to manage or resolve conflict

Lack of maturity disables one to manage conflicts and handle personality differences or ‘irreconcilable differences’


6.Differences in personal and career goals
People who cohabit before marriage have higher rates of divorce than people who didn’t cohabit before marriage because differences become gigantic in course of time. Initial comfort before marriage was imagined to take things ahead in future but in reality it does not happen.

7. Different expectations about household tasks and financial problems

When expectations do not match it affects relationships most. This leads to personality conflict because none of them are willing to do things or are ready to sacrifice their time and comfort.

Because what one wants the other to do, the other does not do there is dissatisfaction and frustration. In such instances love becomes sour. This exacerbates with financial problems because material needs remain unfulfilled and creates discontent in the minds of both the partners as one cannot give and feels humiliated and the other is frustrated because of long standing inconveniences.

8. Intellectual Incompatibility and Inflexibility
Intellectual incompatibility creates misunderstandings. And the smarter person feels frustrated while the less intelligent partner is mad about not reaching the level of intelligence of the other and makes life miserable for himself or herself and for the others also.

9. Mental Instability or Mental Illness

Insanity does not allow space for normal communication.

10. Religious beliefs, cultural and lifestyle differences

Cultural values clash unless we are highly adaptive in nature. Orthodoxy leads to intolerance and conservatism gags the spontaneity of life. So this leads to divorce after some time of marriage

When a person has a valid reason to divorce, he or she knows when to divorce. After all, there is no point in hanging on to a person. One should take appropriate action and break-off the relationship.
http://women.ygoy.com/top-ten-reasons-for-divorce/

Conflict is resolved rather easily in those cases when a leader is present. In countries where this is the norm for the male have less divorce. I dont think that social suicide is enough justification for divorce rates to be less than 5000% of the western cultures.
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July 29th, 2012, 11:09
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
explain something spiritual
This is a contradiction. Explanations is what science does. The spirit cannot be explained, at best it can be expressed through art and poetry. I am spiritual when I reflect on the deeper existential meanings. When I connect with other peoples emotions, share their joy and sorrow there's no room for explanations, we share a spiritual bond that only human beings can have and is more true than any letter.

Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
the Bible which IS a spiritual book from his purely secular, humanist, atheistic position
No it isn't. First it is a book collection. While some books in it are spiritual Genesis is written to explain the world and establish power structures at the same time. It's scientific (although outdated) and rational (based on insight at that time), not spiritual.

Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
I refuse to cast pearls before swine which is why I no longer waste my time trying to argue with him.
The reason you do not argue is because you can't. You cannot support a position you haven't reasoned yourself into. You do have a huge investment in what you do so trying to apply reason at this point would most likely lead to a massive loss so you are stuck with cognitive dissonance in which you make up the above excuses to feel that you are still on the right track.

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July 29th, 2012, 11:14
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
I guess you are right. I figured after getting the degree in psychology he would reason things better. I guess not.
Don't tell me you are Mahadevan. I thought you had made some progress but the posts you made on this account so far are tremendously stupid. You do not reason at all, only forward stuff you do not comprehend to reply to posts you do not comprehend.

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July 29th, 2012, 11:20
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
I dont think that it leads to less divorce, all i see from my limited looks into peoples lives is that a lack of a leader in the marriage resulats in divorce(be it male or female).
You are as romantic as a doorstop. I actually feel sorry for you, it's like you never experienced love at all.

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July 29th, 2012, 15:41
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
I dont think that it leads to less divorce, all i see from my limited looks into peoples lives is that a lack of a leader in the marriage resulats in divorce(be it male or female). In our society it is assumed that it is almost wrogn for the man to take the lead, but in most cultures tahat let the man lead they are happier to stay together.

Top 10 reasons:



http://women.ygoy.com/top-ten-reasons-for-divorce/

Conflict is resolved rather easily in those cases when a leader is present. In countries where this is the norm for the male have less divorce. I dont think that social suicide is enough justification for divorce rates to be less than 5000% of the western cultures.
It is when divorce can make you a pariah in the society where no one would want to marry you again, because you've been used up. In many ultra-religious places, this is the case and sometimes women who get beaten do not even want to divorce because of all the consequences there would be for her.

In Western countries divorce has been made easier because women are treated unfairly otherwise. I have friends from Nigeria who say their parents used to tell them these things all the time on how the white people divorce a lot, but now that they came to the UK they realize the differences in why and how. A friend of someone I know, his father stabbed his mother, which almost killed her and that was the last straw which made her separate from her husband, not even divorce!

If a woman asked for divorce in some societies, she needs the husband's permission for it too unless there is something very bad going on.

You take one data point and create lots of assumptions, but you do not look at every side of the argument and just one which is presented to you.
Divorce, abortion and all the other social issues that you see as very politically relevant in the US are in fact thing that people have always wanted to do, but if they did it before they would get shunned, exiled,…

A very extreme example would be the Amish people who would exile you from using any modern technology. You would say that's stupid, why shouldn't you be able to use modern tech? Well, because modern technology is what has lead the world to become this pit of sin.

Again, that's a false supposition. You first have to show that people didn't sin before and so on.

Same with divorce, people who wanted to divorce before couldn't out of fear of being shunned, beaten harder and in many cases, the court wouldn't allow for it so easily.

My mom knows someone in India who was arranged to marry someone 30 years older than her. She wasn't happy at all, but couldn't get a divorce. It's not done in those societies. So you say it's because there is no dominant male that people divorce, instead look at why people do NOT divorce. You'll see that it's not only because they're all so happy. There are many forces involved.

You even have to add to this that in Western countries the person (usually the woman) who gets to take charge of the kids gets a lot of help and the other person has to pay alimony. In countries like Nigeria, if you're a woman who wants to divorce and take the children away that's possible, but you don't get half the assets, the house, the car, alimony and so on, you have to go and take care of you and your kids on your own now. Your husband will easily remarry someone else who he can cheat on or beat and you will have to fend for yourself.

Nigeria is a very religious country by the way with about half the population being Muslim and the other half Christian. A massive percentage are churchgoers, unlike Western countries. Just to show the difference in way of life.

So basically, there is no protection in many of those countries for divorcees and their kids, which is yet another reason why people in Europe do divorce more.

You can say that there not being a dominant person contributes to all of these factors and you might even be able to show it in some places, but saying that THAT IS the reason for why people divorce more is really not the way to go.
You also have to consider that you would also find marriages which end up in divorce in Europe because someone is taking charge too, so it's a very difficult thing to say.

EDIT: sorry for the long post.
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July 29th, 2012, 16:31
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
I dont think that it leads to less divorce, all i see from my limited looks into peoples lives is that a lack of a leader in the marriage resulats in divorce(be it male or female). In our society it is assumed that it is almost wrogn for the man to take the lead, but in most cultures tahat let the man lead they are happier to stay together.
I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. It's not that the divorce rate is low because men boss around with their wives, it's that men boss around with their wives because the divorce rate is so low. Or, rather, the explanation for why men get to boss around with their wives is also the explanation for why divorce rate is so low.

Another factor of those conservative, partriarchal cultures is that women don't work. Which means they need to rely on men for food and housing. What do you think that does to the power balance between the man and the wife in the marriage? Well, what happens is that the wife stands a lot more to lose on the man being unhappy than the man stand to lose on the wife being unhappy. Which means that when the man bosses around with his wife, all that's going to lead to is that the wife suffers in silence.

In a more equal society where women work, however, that just doesn't fly. Treat your spouse poorly here and it's just a question of time before she figures she's better off on her own. Because here the wife has an income, which means she can stay single and still have food and housing.

(Which, I believe, is why, in the west, the more equal the marriage, the more stable they are.)

In other words, in the divorce-free countries the men call the shots because the women have no option but to accept the situation as it is. The marriages doesn't lead to divorce for the same reason.

(Well, among other things, anyway.)

Originally Posted by Damian View Post
Top 10 reasons:

5.Inability to manage or resolve conflict

Lack of maturity disables one to manage conflicts and handle personality differences or ‘irreconcilable differences’
Even if what you're saying is true, that's only the fifth most common reason among ten. In other words, there are four bigger factors than the factor you claim is The Factor.

And that's besides the factor that the reasons are trying to differentiate between marriages that does and doesn't lead to divorce within our culture, rather than comparing marriages within ours and other cultures. The difference comes down to far more than "the man is in charge".

Originally Posted by Damian View Post
I dont think that social suicide is enough justification for divorce rates to be less than 5000% of the western cultures.
Maybe not. But I think you underestimate just how powerful social pressure is, and just how heavy the pressure is in some of these cultures. There are cultures where a woman risks being killed by her own family to restore the family honor if she divorces - how badly does her husband need to treat her before risking that is worth it?

(That's not the reason in all places, but certanly in some, and some are too many.)

Divorce rates as low as you report them speaks of a culture where divorce is unthinkable (just the fact that hardly anyone ever encounters it is going to ensure it takes a lot for pepole to even think of it, let alone consider it).

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July 30th, 2012, 00:46
By Jemy "The reason you do not argue is because you can't. You cannot support a position you haven't reasoned yourself into. You do have a huge investment in what you do so trying to apply reason at this point would most likely lead to a massive loss so you are stuck with cognitive dissonance in which you make up the above excuses to feel that you are still on the right track. "
YOU are an arrogant SOB. How DARE you attempt to state what I can and cannot do!! You sit in your ivory tower, while I have lived and worked with real people in the real world. YOU are not worth my time.

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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July 30th, 2012, 02:29
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
It is when divorce can make you a pariah in the society where no one would want to marry you again, because you've been used up. In many ultra-religious places, this is the case and sometimes women who get beaten do not even want to divorce because of all the consequences there would be for her.

In Western countries divorce has been made easier because women are treated unfairly otherwise. I have friends from Nigeria who say their parents used to tell them these things all the time on how the white people divorce a lot, but now that they came to the UK they realize the differences in why and how. A friend of someone I know, his father stabbed his mother, which almost killed her and that was the last straw which made her separate from her husband, not even divorce!
Did the father have mental illness? I dont see why she didnt divorce? I am guessing the father had something on her.


If a woman asked for divorce in some societies, she needs the husband's permission for it too unless there is something very bad going on.

You take one data point and create lots of assumptions, but you do not look at every side of the argument and just one which is presented to you.
Divorce, abortion and all the other social issues that you see as very politically relevant in the US are in fact thing that people have always wanted to do, but if they did it before they would get shunned, exiled,…

A very extreme example would be the Amish people who would exile you from using any modern technology. You would say that's stupid, why shouldn't you be able to use modern tech? Well, because modern technology is what has lead the world to become this pit of sin.

Again, that's a false supposition. You first have to show that people didn't sin before and so on.

Same with divorce, people who wanted to divorce before couldn't out of fear of being shunned, beaten harder and in many cases, the court wouldn't allow for it so easily.

My mom knows someone in India who was arranged to marry someone 30 years older than her. She wasn't happy at all, but couldn't get a divorce. It's not done in those societies. So you say it's because there is no dominant male that people divorce, instead look at why people do NOT divorce. You'll see that it's not only because they're all so happy. There are many forces involved.
Why did she accept? A woman doesnt have to accept an arranged marriage in Sri Lanka anyway. I assume she had a lot of dowri?


You even have to add to this that in Western countries the person (usually the woman) who gets to take charge of the kids gets a lot of help and the other person has to pay alimony. In countries like Nigeria, if you're a woman who wants to divorce and take the children away that's possible, but you don't get half the assets, the house, the car, alimony and so on, you have to go and take care of you and your kids on your own now. Your husband will easily remarry someone else who he can cheat on or beat and you will have to fend for yourself.

Nigeria is a very religious country by the way with about half the population being Muslim and the other half Christian. A massive percentage are churchgoers, unlike Western countries. Just to show the difference in way of life.

So basically, there is no protection in many of those countries for divorcees and their kids, which is yet another reason why people in Europe do divorce more.

You can say that there not being a dominant person contributes to all of these factors and you might even be able to show it in some places, but saying that THAT IS the reason for why people divorce more is really not the way to go.
You also have to consider that you would also find marriages which end up in divorce in Europe because someone is taking charge too, so it's a very difficult thing to say.

EDIT: sorry for the long post.
Yeah thats true. I also have to point out that when you have a male head or leader fo the household biblically, they should usually let the wife have 9/10 things she asks for, some part about loving your wife as the christ loved the church.






I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. It's not that the divorce rate is low because men boss around with their wives, it's that men boss around with their wives because the divorce rate is so low. Or, rather, the explanation for why men get to boss around with their wives is also the explanation for why divorce rate is so low.

Another factor of those conservative, partriarchal cultures is that women don't work. Which means they need to rely on men for food and housing. What do you think that does to the power balance between the man and the wife in the marriage? Well, what happens is that the wife stands a lot more to lose on the man being unhappy than the man stand to lose on the wife being unhappy. Which means that when the man bosses around with his wife, all that's going to lead to is that the wife suffers in silence.

In a more equal society where women work, however, that just doesn't fly. Treat your spouse poorly here and it's just a question of time before she figures she's better off on her own. Because here the wife has an income, which means she can stay single and still have food and housing.

(Which, I believe, is why, in the west, the more equal the marriage, the more stable they are.)

In other words, in the divorce-free countries the men call the shots because the women have no option but to accept the situation as it is. The marriages doesn't lead to divorce for the same reason.

(Well, among other things, anyway.)
I still say that a household is better off if either a male or female is the house lead. Because it handles arguements better. Equality in marriage imo seems a good idea but just doesnt work from what i have seen.
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July 30th, 2012, 02:41
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
You are as romantic as a doorstop. I actually feel sorry for you, it's like you never experienced love at all.
This is your most obnoxious post yet JemyM, congrats dude. You must have lived a long and diverse life to speak with such authority on these matters.

The key to a successful marriage is that there is no one key to making it work; every relationship is different because every person is so different. In my short 5 years of marriage I've found that communication is a major factor, and sharing the workload is very important, but simply saying "I'll do 50% of the chores" is not practical. Everyone has different strengths and interests, and those will come into play when deciding who does what. And that then leads to the question of whether or not 2 people are "compatible", which will be answered by everyone differently depending on upbringing, culture, etc. It's complicated, and I say that divorce is an option up until the point that the couple decides to have kids. After that, suck it up and do the right thing by your children at all costs!
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July 30th, 2012, 02:49
Originally Posted by badmofo View Post
This is your most obnoxious post yet JemyM, congrats dude. You must have lived a long and diverse life to speak with such authority on these matters.

The key to a successful marriage is that there is no one key to making it work; every relationship is different because every person is so different. In my short 5 years of marriage I've found that communication is a major factor, and sharing the workload is very important, but simply saying "I'll do 50% of the chores" is not practical. Everyone has different strengths and interests, and those will come into play when deciding who does what. And that then leads to the question of whether or not 2 people are "compatible", which will be answered by everyone differently depending on upbringing, culture, etc. It's complicated, and I say that divorce is an option up until the point that the couple decides to have kids. After that, suck it up and do the right thing by your children at all costs!
I agree with that. But I dont know, i think that people make less of an effort to make these relationships work these days. However I think that it is very hard when 2 "alphas" of the sexes get together. That couple needs extra work. Lol
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