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October 28th, 2012, 19:46
After witnessing Blakemore's recent behavior, I hope Grimoire fails miserably.
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October 28th, 2012, 22:32
He behaves at the 'Codex -> good informative interview

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October 28th, 2012, 22:45
Which is funny when you consider how much shit we gave him back in the "old" days for his views.
And pre(?)-rpgwatch defended him.

The world has gone topsy turvy.

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October 28th, 2012, 22:54
Had he used the tone he uses in the interview in his postings elsewhere, he might have more backers. However his shitty behaviour in the Shaker kickstarter and elsewhere has put me off. Blame it on my inferior sapiens genes.
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October 28th, 2012, 23:20
I've learnt over the years to take internet trash talkers and trolls not too seriously.
It's good for my cardiovascular system

but…

If only 10% is true from what I have heard over the past years about Grimore then I WANT to play this game.
Grimoire's role modes are: Wizardry 6, Eye of the Beholder and Lands of Lore -> very good old school games.
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October 29th, 2012, 02:15
From that interview:

Wizardry 8 is a derivative work attempting to copy the superficial mechanics of the earlier two games. I believe it is soulless and empty compared to Bane of the Cosmic Forge and Crusaders of the Dark Savant. There is more atmosphere in the first city you enter in Wiz 7 than the entire game in Wizardry 8. An honest appraisal would conclude that the primitive 3D in Wizardry 8 is manifestly inferior to the hand crafted artwork of W6-W7 for atmosphere and immersion. The graphics in Wizardry 8 were not good 3D environments and they weren’t much for classic dungeon blobbers [snip]

Wizardry 8 was what flowed into the vacuum left behind by David Bradley and Anthony Greenberg at Sir-Tech. It was the absence of the good, which is the worse thing you can be as far as I am concerned. The absence of the good is worse than merely bad.
This is absolutely hysterical, coming from a guy who is making a game which is basically a knock-off of Crusaders of the Dark Savant. You would have to be completely and utterly prejudiced (or blinded by hatred for Sir-Tech) to not see how much of a massive improvement Wizardry 8 was over it's predecessors:

+ True 3D environment
+ No more annoying random battles
+ No massive level grinding mandate to have any chance of surviving the next map
+ Missile weapons ARE actually useful
+ Vastly improved character development system
+ Wonderful (and at times hysterical) character voice sets
+ Good music
+ Superb interface
+ Oozes charm (subjective)
+ Classic "Old school" mechanics wrapped in all of the trappings of "New school", i.e. automapping, quest journal, right-click help text, etc.
- No built-in way to insanely speed up attack animations and monster movement (WizFast does help with this, though) [I find Wizardry 7 combat to be far more ponderous and sluggish, though]
- A lot of the best treasures are random
- No "monster surrender" option to bypass filler combat
- No real puzzles, per se
- Some grinding required for magic skills

I can't see myself ever playing a game like Grimoire (my contempt towards the author aside), because it represents such a massive regression in gameplay. There is something fundamentally wrong with most of those Codexians. They same to believe that if a game isn't a massive inconvenience to play, then it isn't a real game.

I've mapped out my fair share of dungeons and filled out many reams of notebook paper over the years. Quite frankly, at 40 years old, I'm through with that shit. When a game starts to become like a job, then it's just not fun for me. I would rather spend my time enjoying a game's story and character progression than waste hours on forced tedium. I'm quite happy with the automapping, fast travel, quest markers and other conveniences that make a game a game. I play games to get away from work. Wizardry 8 was a huge step in the right direction for me. Your mileage may vary…
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October 29th, 2012, 08:51
From the videos, Grimoire doesn't look like an inconvenience to play. The automap is there, you can even set waypoints and let the party autowalk.

I have to say I agree with a lot of things he said. Wiz8 did a lot of things right, but for me it felt like work. It completely lacked charm that games like Lands of Lore and World of Xeen had loads of. Hand-drawn art with warm colors > ugly 3D in different shades of brown.

What comes to Cleve's political views, he's got tons I strongly disagree with and can't even begin to comprehend, but I reckon there's room for more than my opinions in this world. Cleve belongs to the "harmless nut" category, it's not like he's a great influence on people's opinions. If anything he makes racism look silly.
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October 29th, 2012, 09:07
gozioso said:
I'm quite happy with the automapping, fast travel, quest markers and other conveniences that make a game a game. I play games to get away from work. Wizardry 8 was a huge step in the right direction for me. Your mileage may vary…
Grimoire features automapping. I don't know about fast travel (-> this can be solved old school like with teleporting spells on higher character levels).
And I absolute hate quest markers - this kills exploration and discovery.

If you want to play a game like this then play Skyrim or Borderlands - they are really great.
But old school hardcore gaming has a right to exist, too. If hardcore game principles are not your cup of tea just ignore hardcore games.

Cleve hates Wizardry 8, because his Wizardry 8 (Stones of Arnhem) had another vision and was canceled by Sirtech. I think he is/was deeply dissapointed by Sirtech's decision.
Wizardry 8 is a real good game by all means.

P.S.:
Let's discuss only game features of Grimoire in this thread and NOT Cleve's character, political views and rants. This would be another thread in the category Politics & Religion.

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - HL Mencken
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October 29th, 2012, 14:24
The kickstart video says it's got "autowalking, automapping, map notes, autohealing context sensitive magic, journal records all notes and hints". Sounds like a lot of gameplay convenice progression from Wiz7.
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October 29th, 2012, 14:28
Originally Posted by Raggie View Post
What comes to Cleve's political views, he's got tons I strongly disagree with and can't even begin to comprehend, but I reckon there's room for more than my opinions in this world. Cleve belongs to the "harmless nut" category, it's not like he's a great influence on people's opinions. If anything he makes racism look silly.
I don't know if I agree with this assessment. I would place Cleve in the "vindictive nut" category. I wouldn't be surprised if he includes some sort of malware as part of the game installation. He's about six beers short of a six pack. Just saying…

Originally Posted by HiddenX View Post
If you want to play a game like this then play Skyrim or Borderlands - they are really great.
But old school hardcore gaming has a right to exist, too. If hardcore game principles are not your cup of tea just ignore hardcore games.
I have played (and finished) Fallout 3 and Fallout:NV. I enjoyed them both but found New Vegas to be vastly superior. I'm certainly not contesting someone's right to enjoy old school games, but I just don't have the patience of my younger years. I have played a ton of hardcore games over the years, though. Also, I've have never been able to make much progress in Crusaders of the Dark Savant. I always get bored and quit around the Gorn Secret Castle area. I find Bane of the Cosmic Forge to be a much better game. Oh well, to each his or her own…

Originally Posted by Raggie View Post
The kickstart video says it's got "autowalking, automapping, map notes, autohealing context sensitive magic, journal records all notes and hints". Sounds like a lot of gameplay convenice progression from Wiz7.
It appears to be a step up from Wiz7. There is certainly no denying that one. However, it doesn't even remotely come close to the evolution from 7 to 8.
Last edited by gozioso; October 29th, 2012 at 14:39.
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October 29th, 2012, 15:55
Originally Posted by gozioso View Post
I don't know if I agree with this assessment. I would place Cleve in the "vindictive nut" category. I wouldn't be surprised if he includes some sort of malware as part of the game installation. He's about six beers short of a six pack. Just saying…
I don't know this Cleve persona all that well, but has he ever actually done anything beyond posting stuff that's barking mad and insulting everyone he's in contact with?

Originally Posted by gozioso View Post
It appears to be a step up from Wiz7. There is certainly no denying that one. However, it doesn't even remotely come close to the evolution from 7 to 8.
I dunno, Grimoire seems to have a lot of features Wiz8 doesn't have. Most importantly, it seems to me the changes in Grimoire have been done for a reason, instead of Wiz8 that had changes for the sake of having changes. Not all "improvements" in Wiz8 were for the game's benefit, but that's a matter of opinion, of course. IMO both games look to have evolution from the earlier Wizardry games, but they take it to different directions. From what I've seen, I prefer the path Grimoire has taken.
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October 29th, 2012, 16:09
Originally Posted by gozioso View Post
This is absolutely hysterical, coming from a guy who is making a game which is basically a knock-off of Crusaders of the Dark Savant. You would have to be completely and utterly prejudiced (or blinded by hatred for Sir-Tech) to not see how much of a massive improvement Wizardry 8 was over it's predecessors:
Stay calm while I shoot your points down:

+ True 3D environment
> 3D isn't a WIN button; it doesn't magically make anything better just because

+ No more annoying random battles
> calling them "random" is a stretch. You could avoid them if you cared

+ Wonderful (and at times hysterical) character voice sets
> Most were abysmally juvenile with crap humour

+ Good music
> Strawman to bring up "good music", as if W7 had abysmal music.

+ Superb interface
> If W7 were made 9 years later, it too would have superb interface.

+ Oozes charm (subjective)
> Why even bring up an aspect you admit to be subjective in a list that you so claimantly make to emphasize improvements?

+ Classic "Old school" mechanics wrapped in all of the trappings of "New school", i.e. automapping, quest journal, right-click help text, etc.
> See the above point about the time between the two titles

I can't see myself ever playing a game like Grimoire (my contempt towards the author aside), because it represents such a massive regression in gameplay.
You don't even know what the game is like as you apparently haven't checked the video. There are numerous improvements, as others have pointed out. You are making this personal. Cleve must have offended you deeply.

There is something fundamentally wrong with most of those Codexians. They same to believe that if a game isn't a massive inconvenience to play, then it isn't a real game.
There is something fundamentally wrong with most of those Watchers. They seem (same?) to believe that if a game doesn't play itself while you watch, then it isn't a real game. ]( They also seem to believe that if they don't make sweeping hyperbole statements, nobody will even read their insignificant drivel, which is actually true as if it weren't for your uninformed post, I wouldn't even be here now, replying to you )

See? I CAN DO IT TOO!

I've mapped out my fair share of dungeons and filled out many reams of notebook paper over the years. Quite frankly, at 40 years old, I'm through with that shit. When a game starts to become like a job, then it's just not fun for me. I would rather spend my time enjoying a game's story and character progression than waste hours on forced tedium. I'm quite happy with the automapping, fast travel, quest markers and other conveniences that make a game a game. I play games to get away from work. Wizardry 8 was a huge step in the right direction for me. Your mileage may vary…
In other words, you have grown old and senile. Time to lock you up in a nursing home, oldfart.
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November 9th, 2012, 11:53
As far as his opinions on Wizardry go Cleve is full of shit, but it's probably just butthurt because his own supposed tr00 sequel to Wizardry 7 still isn't out.

If this game hadn't been in production endlessly and if he wasn't crazy like a bag of cats, I'd even donate on Indiegogo. In fact I might still do that despite the aforementioned points. Personally I think he should have set a smaller goal, why should people spend enough to help a totally old-school RPG produced by a nutcase reach 250.000$ ? That's bound to demotivate potential backers. But Cleve has an answer to that too. Even if funding falls short the game will be released even if it's a bit "rough around the edges". Someone ought to take the marketing part out of his hand.

Despite that, I thoroughly enjoy his videos. They're probably the best thing about the campaign.
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September 3rd, 2013, 12:08
Originally Posted by gozioso View Post
From that interview:



This is absolutely hysterical,
Spoiler: wizardry 8 was utter crap.
coming from a guy who is making a game which is basically a knock-off of Crusaders of the Dark Savant. You would have to be completely and utterly prejudiced (or blinded by hatred for Sir-Tech) to not see how much of a massive improvement Wizardry 8 was over it's predecessors:

+ True 3D environment
Wow.
+ No more annoying random battles
And there we go, obviously RPGs are not for you. Sorry to distract you from the next bit of story.
+ No massive level grinding mandate to have any chance of surviving the next map
Yeah level scaling is great, it's the awesome. Also this is just wrong. Change your class once and you will be grinding eternally to be strong enough to face monsters and wait days to regen mana.
+ Missile weapons ARE actually useful
Wizrardy was like complicated and stuff! I wanna just shoot with mah machinegun!!!
+ Vastly improved character development system
Only to someone who would post all the junk you posted so far.
+ Wonderful (and at times hysterical) character voice sets
+ Good music
I liked the "you are really there" feel of 6 and 7. Can't remember the voice acting.
+ Superb interface
How is that better?
+ Oozes charm (subjective)
The dark savant was great and the umpani were great, most of the rest was kind of crap. I don't think anything NEW was really any good.
+ Classic "Old school" mechanics wrapped in all of the trappings of "New school", i.e. automapping, quest journal, right-click help text, etc.
No change here.
- No built-in way to insanely speed up attack animations and monster movement (WizFast does help with this, though) [I find Wizardry 7 combat to be far more ponderous and sluggish, though]
So you played the pratt version of rimmer for four years? Oh, that's a classic, that is!
- A lot of the best treasures are random
sheesh
- No "monster surrender" option to bypass filler combat
Wow
- No real puzzles, per se
Yeah minor stuff like that is a slight bummer!
- Some grinding required for magic skills
I felt like playing, at the mechanical level, was a punishment. You are penalized for leveling up great job guys. And not just in-game but you lengthen the time you waste replenishing mana every time you level so you are wasting real life time.

I can't see myself ever playing a game like Grimoire (my contempt towards the author aside), because it represents such a massive regression in gameplay.
Yet you are his worst critic, so what kind of person does that make you?
There is something fundamentally wrong with most of those Codexians.
Maybe there's something wrong with you. No, I'm sure of it.
They same to believe that if a game isn't a massive inconvenience to play, then it isn't a real game.
Using your brain is hard and stuff. I suggest you don't start trying now, you might burst ablood vessel.

I've mapped out my fair share of dungeons and filled out many reams of notebook paper over the years. Quite frankly, at 40 years old, I'm through with that shit. When a game starts to become like a job, then it's just not fun for me. I would rather spend my time enjoying a game's story and character progression than waste hours on forced tedium. I'm quite happy with the automapping, fast travel, quest markers and other conveniences that make a game a game. I play games to get away from work. Wizardry 8 was a huge step in the right direction for me. Your mileage may vary…
So you are just too busy for turn based games and just want a casual cell phone game? Well good news there's a lot to choose from.

Also, I don't believe you even played these games, that you are 40, or that you have ever had a real job. You don't seem to even know what you are talking about, or have any interest in rpgs, just stirring up drama. .

It's like the guys nitpicking on cleve's origin myth/LA Riots story because he had a Desert Eagle and m203. You are on a gun forum and find it incredible someone has a Desert Eagle and don't know an m203 is a scope? Yeah sorry, go back downstairs your mom is calling. When you are a grown up maybe you will meet a gun nut and see something really impressive.
Last edited by ManWhoJaped; September 3rd, 2013 at 12:24.
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September 3rd, 2013, 12:20
Is ManWhoJaped a Codexian ?
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September 3rd, 2013, 12:26
No, I am a free man.
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September 3rd, 2013, 12:50
Also Wiz 8 DID have puzzles. Not that I needed any more confirmation that post was pure fabrication.
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September 3rd, 2013, 13:23
Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
Spoiler: wizardry 8 was utter crap.
You are a moron.

And there we go, obviously RPGs are not for you. Sorry to distract you from the next bit of story.
How is what you said here relevant to what the poster you are replying to said? Random 'pop up' battles were never a good thing. We forgive this in older games because prior to the early 1990s this is just how things were done for technical reasons. but we don't want to be unable to see enemies coming in games made in the last 20 years. Even Moraff's "Dungeons of the Unforgiven" had enemies you could see coming.

Yeah level scaling is great, it's the awesome.
No, it's not. But what does this have to do with the points he made? He did not advocate that level scaling was good.


Also this is just wrong. Change your class once and you will be grinding eternally to be strong enough to face monsters and wait days to regen mana.
WTF are you talking about?! Are you even reading what you are replying to?! Not only is this false but you seem pissed off because Wiz 8 did away with the class switching exploit so that players in W8 will maybe change classes one or two times (for one or two of the 8 PCs) at most.

Wizrardy was like complicated and stuff! I wanna just shoot with mah machinegun!!!
Your straw men are duly noted but seriously WTF does this have to do with what he said?! He said "missile weapons were actually useful", which is a good thing. He did not say "Wizardry 7 was too complicated" (though it did have a lot of bad, overly complicated design elements that added nothing to the game except complication).

Only to someone who would post all the junk you posted so far.
How was W8's character development NOT a vast improvement? I get that we all fear change and get nostalgic for games (the primary reason D&D has remained the top selling RPG for ages even though it has a crappy system).

I liked the "you are really there" feel of 6 and 7. Can't remember the voice acting.
?? Seriously WTF is this supposed to mean?

How is that better?
How is having a superb interface better?! Seriously are you thinking about what you are writing at all?


Maybe there's something wrong with you. No, I'm sure of it.
Codex had some weird massive change that kind of threw a lot of us old-timers who had been visiting that site and posting there for many years. One day they were posting intelligent and funny observations and letting Cleve have it from all sides for his absurd rants and Cleve had declared that 'No one from Codex will ever get to play Grimoire!' and a few days later the place became Cleve's harem and the intelligent posts were replaced by vacuous and ignorant trolling. A lot of other nonsensical 180 degree turns there as well (all of a sudden Jeff Vogel's games became 'teh decline!' for example).

So you are just too busy for turn based games and just want a casual cell phone game? Well good news there's a lot to choose from.
WTF is your deal with straw men?!

Also, I don't believe you even played these games, that you are 40, or that you have ever had a real job. You don't seem to even know what you are talking about, or have any interest in rpgs, just stirring up drama.
Ah yes, he is obviously a troll.

You can tell someone is a troll by whether they favor good game design over nostalgic comfort. Only a troll would want to not have to constantly deal with random pop-up battles that can't be avoided and instead favor sensibly being able to see monsters coming your way and possibly avoid them. Only a troll would want a skill for "Critical" hits to be called "Critical" as opposed to some obscure Japanese word ("Kirijutsu"?!) in an English speaking game. Only a troll would not love the idea of having to switch all of your PCs classes several times just to cheesily max out all skills or have Alchemists who could…you know, make potions, etc.

It's like the guys nitpicking on cleve's origin myth/LA Riots story about Desert Eagle and m203. You are on a gun forum and find it incredible someone has a Desert Eagle and don't know an m203 is a scope? Yeah sorry, go back downstairs your mom is calling.
?!? Seriously kiddo…WTF?!

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September 3rd, 2013, 21:27
Another genius wanders in. I would respond but like goziozo you are obviously confused and stumbled onto an RPG eWeb portal by accident.
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September 3rd, 2013, 21:36
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Is ManWhoJaped a Codexian ?
If not, he'll soon be.

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