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RPGWatch Forums » Games » The Elder Scrolls » TES V: Skyrim » Why is there no challenger for Skyrim?

Default Why is there no challenger for Skyrim?

October 26th, 2012, 14:57
Originally Posted by akarthis View Post
The TES series is well respected.
I agree; they're doing this type of games since 1994.

Originally Posted by akarthis View Post
The things that offers are the best in their category.
Hell, no. And I'm saying this as a huge fan of Morrowind. Since after TES III we've just seen a huge let-down for the series, and that's because of the incredible streamlining in every aspect: exploration, traveling, combat, magic…
Don't misunderstand me, I've had my share of fun with TES IV and V, but I'm with Fluent for a MW 'spiritual successor', although I'd really want to see some elements from other games, e.g. Dark Souls kind of combat, magic from Arx Fatalis…

In the end, a game closest to Ultima Underworld (as Arena was) would be awesome .

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October 26th, 2012, 17:51
I would absolutely hate Dark Souls type of combat, and I bet I'm in the majority. I don't play TES games for realistic combat, that's what M&B is for. I play TES to imagine a role and then explore the fabulous sandbox that is presented. I also would hate the ass-slow magic from Arx Fatalis. Spells need to be as fast as melee or much more damaging to compensate for their slower speed. Arx was too time consuming drawing those silly symbols in the air. It was horrendous. I'm quite happy with more of the same, except I'd like the exclusive factions of Morrowind and better writing in general.
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October 27th, 2012, 09:00
Because there is only space enough for one game series like that.

First point: competition could come from Bethesda themselves. They could start other franchises parallelly to TES if the prospects of selling were that good.
They have everything it takes.
They do not and prefer to keep TES special by making it a four years event.
Shows that the speculations over a lot of demand for that type of games are probably unfounded.
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November 2nd, 2012, 01:00
Sounds to me what the OP really wants are open world RPGs with a stronger narrative and hand-placed everything. Might want to change the topic to read 'spiritual successor to Gothic 2 NotR.'

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November 2nd, 2012, 02:07
Originally Posted by TheMadGamer View Post
Might want to change the topic to read 'spiritual successor to Gothic 2 NotR.'
Yes and that's not a bad idea either. I can already imagine it.

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November 2nd, 2012, 06:00
I'm waiting for Jon Van Caneghem (M&M) to get back in the game.

But I hear you as far as the OP. Not only is there no challenger, but there is almost no one testing the waters. Whether it's money, audience, fashion or will, who knows, but the fact is they just don't make too many Skyrim type games.

If I had the money or the ability to get funds together I would plumb the depths of an open world Shadowrun type game. And yes I am aware of the Kickstrater, but I have no hopes at all of that being an open world sand box first person RPG.
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November 2nd, 2012, 10:21
Originally Posted by crpgnut View Post
I also would hate the ass-slow magic from Arx Fatalis. Spells need to be as fast as melee or much more damaging to compensate for their slower speed. Arx was too time consuming drawing those silly symbols in the air. It was horrendous.
Have to disagree with that pretty sad assessment of what I think is a very innovative magic system. I think in a role-playing game in the tradition of UU, it's perfectly justifiable to have magic system that's slow and strategic.
After all it's not a freaking arcade game or "awesome button" based action game, it's an RPG.
Furthermore, you could pre-plan and store spells for that next Ylside encounter or whatever. Some of the fights I had with Liches in the crypts during my magic build character were both intense and memorable.

Ahh man, C'mon Arkane…bring Arx 2 to Kickstarter!

Edit: Pardon my moment of delusion for Arkane autocracy; I'd forgotten they're now under the auspices of the Zenimax family tree! (Thanks Count)

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Last edited by Pessimeister; November 5th, 2012 at 07:41.
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November 2nd, 2012, 10:58
Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
Ahh man, C'mon Arkane…bring Arx 2 to Kickstarter!
I can already imagine the backlash of people complaining about a successful company like Zenimax doing a Kickstarter.

I'd probably pledge if they did something like that, but I think it's never going to happen. Who knows, they might eventually do an Arx Fatalis 2, but it would likely end up being a big budget console game.
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November 2nd, 2012, 20:45
Originally Posted by TheMadGamer View Post
Sounds to me what the OP really wants are open world RPGs with a stronger narrative and hand-placed everything. Might want to change the topic to read 'spiritual successor to Gothic 2 NotR.'
I never played the Gothic games, but they sound like what I am looking for. At least the little I know about them anyway.

I don't mind the narrative in TES games. I think the writing is fine and I have no problem with how they present the dialog or story overall. Since Morrowind I have been captivated by those games and see no problems with the writing that others seem to have. To me it's pretty good.

Unfortunately, the era of hand-placed everything might be over. It seems like we are moving into the "totally dynamic, ever-changing game world" era. Skyrim is just the beginning of that. I think more games are going to take notes from what Skyrim did with Radiant A.I. and Radiant Story, and incorporate that type of thing into their own games.

Now, there's nothing wrong with Radiant everything and a game-world that is not static. But I think there is an opportunity for another company to make a hand-placed, static open-world game world that can compete with TES. Since TES games are more dynamic now, why not attempt a hand-placed game like Morrowind or the early Gothic games? Even Risen was a great hand-placed game.

Let's talk about Risen for a second. Risen was great because even the chests felt like they were completely hand-placed, with hand-placed loot inside of them. It didn't feel like, "oh, I'm level 10 so there will be level 12 gear in the chest". It felt like that loot was there no matter what level you were, and that went a long way to make the world feel completely hand-crafted. Same idea with enemies not respawning and being hand-placed in the game world. That game just really did a good job of creating an open world that was completely hand-crafted.

I'd like to see more of that, but closer to TES style open worlds. Combine the hand-placed, hand-craftedness of Risen with the open-world of TES, and that would be my ideal game.

In other words, Morrowind.
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November 3rd, 2012, 16:21
Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
Have to disagree with that pretty sad assessment of what I think is a very innovative magic system. I think in a role-playing game in the tradition of UU, it's perfectly justifiable to have magic system that's slow and strategic.
After all it's not a freaking arcade game or "awesome button" based action game, it's an RPG.
Furthermore, you could pre-plan and store spells for that next Ylside encounter or whatever. Some of the fights I had with Liches in the crypts during my magic build character were both intense and memorable.

Ahh man, C'mon Arkane…bring Arx 2 to Kickstarter!
Innovative? Slow & Strategic? Well, you're 1/3rd right. The magic system from Arx Fatalis did an excellent job of convincing you that you were casting real magic. At least for the first 4 or 5 times you used it. After that you realized you're playing a silly minigame that has only slightly more depth than pong.

And for the record, I really liked Arx. Just not the glowy-line drawing minigame.
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November 3rd, 2012, 19:09
Originally Posted by Ball_Breaker View Post
I agree; they're doing this type of games since 1994.



Hell, no. And I'm saying this as a huge fan of Morrowind. Since after TES III we've just seen a huge let-down for the series, and that's because of the incredible streamlining in every aspect: exploration, traveling, combat, magic…
Don't misunderstand me, I've had my share of fun with TES IV and V, but I'm with Fluent for a MW 'spiritual successor', although I'd really want to see some elements from other games, e.g. Dark Souls kind of combat, magic from Arx Fatalis…

In the end, a game closest to Ultima Underworld (as Arena was) would be awesome .
I am a morrowind fan only, too. I can't play Skyrim more than 20 hours. But is there a better exploration game since last year? You check each game the period that came out.
And i'm refering mostly to exploration. I do not put in their best category fight or magic.
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November 5th, 2012, 01:18
I don't think there's many games better at exploration than the Elder Scrolls games. They are like an explorer's dream.

Risen had pretty cool exploration though. So did Divinity 2.
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November 5th, 2012, 04:08
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
Let's talk about Risen for a second. Risen was great because even the chests felt like they were completely hand-placed, with hand-placed loot inside of them. It didn't feel like, "oh, I'm level 10 so there will be level 12 gear in the chest". It felt like that loot was there no matter what level you were, and that went a long way to make the world feel completely hand-crafted. Same idea with enemies not respawning and being hand-placed in the game world. That game just really did a good job of creating an open world that was completely hand-crafted.
That should give you a good idea of what the Gothic games are like, except that Gothic 1&2 are even better than Risen in terms of story and atmosphere.

They're cheap and easy to purchase from GOG or GamersGate. You should give them a try.
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December 18th, 2012, 11:36
Hello everyone. I stumpled upon this post through a google search about upcoming open world rpgs, in my quest for a game worthy of us gamers out here, playing games like Skyrim. Why IS there no challenger to these Bethesda games is my question exactly, and it thrills me to hear this question being asked by other people. Just like all of you, ive had my fun with Bethesda games, a lot of fun honestly, but im heavy on the creative side, and I cringe at the thought of people who are less then creative playing these games, and what they must be doing. I was able to get into the stories a little, but the problem was I always found myself roleplaying with the game, to make it cooler. The enemy encounters, the interactions with npc's of the world, there was always so much lacking that the only way to have fun was to fill in all the blanks myself with much cooler scenes. Ive always wanted to play a game like that in which I didnt have to roleplay with it, at all. A game that draws me in the right way and makes me want to be a part of its world. I read the OPs post, decided to make an account with rpgwatch, and hope that you guys will welcome me into this community of gamers. I have much to learn but also much to share, I in fact come to you now with a plan. A plan for the greatest, most ambitious project to date. I mean to make the game that everybody wants to play, the one with the world that responds to you, the enemies that die the way you want them too, and the game that lets you play the very exact character you want to play. Spawned from a love for the creative freedom in tabletop rpgs, I present to you all…MYTH

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Last edited by TheWharfMaster; December 18th, 2012 at 11:53.
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December 18th, 2012, 11:50
Id like to add that I am new to forum sites in general, in fact this is the first one ive decided to frequent, so please more experienced members, point me in the right direction to where I could post my ideas, since this is a Bethesda games section. But yeah, what we call MYTH is a collaboration of years of different people in and out playing and creating this world. Its based off of medieval earth, but a slightly more modern fantasy version. Within the last year or two, my buddies and I have come out with what we call a somewhat refined edition of our world and game, in the pre-publishing phase. Much has been done with the table-top game and much more still waits, but what weve done is spoken extensively on the idea of a video game rendition of MYTH. Obviously its highly ambitious, for trying to capture as much of the freedom and essence of tabletop roleplaying, were pretty much shooting for a real-life, fantasy simulation. Now what do I have for computer programming, coding, managerial and design skills? Almost none. I took the time to read all the posts in this section, gathering the opinions of all the concerned readers, and will say my driving force is this: Before all the education that lies before me, what I carry from the beginning is a passion, love, and understanding of games. I have the heart of the designer, ive always studied the games ive played, always been quick to criticize, but quick to compliment as well. But when I can finally raise an army worthy of a team, or company, what will set us apart is that we wont be for the money, and the one who loves games will be at the top, and the right decisions will made, and it will be a long, arduous process, but the game will be unleashed and all of our problems will be solved. If your still reading than thank you, as you can see there is much, much to be said and done on this, I welcome any and all opinions and ideas, and MYTH should be available to the public, in tabletop rpg book mode, within 2 years, take care and thanks for reading

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December 18th, 2012, 19:39
Welcome to our boards! Always nice to meet a fellow Bethsoft games fan .

As for your question about directions, well - I assume your video game rendition of MYTH would be an indie game, so perhaps you might try out our Indie forum. Another good place is our General RPG section over here.

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December 19th, 2012, 23:57
Thank you kind fellow
Finding my way around quite nicely, gotta appreciate the active and helpful community
As far as me and Bethesda, we have a complicated relationship

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December 21st, 2012, 15:11
There is no competition for the elder scrolls games, because they're in a league of their own. It is a masterpiece series. Well things like factions could be fleshed out a little bit better as time has gone on, still the ruler comes exploration and more importantly, lore. If you want to immerse yourself in a game world mythology, religion, and culture, Elder scrolls is the way to go. That said, the series is gotten stronger and ironically weaker at the same time in different ways, but still I don't think they have a true competitor. Part of that success has to do with the world editor, and the ability to literally do anything you want through that. No other the game offers that experience.

Two worlds I would say is the closest, with Gothic. Two worlds more for the exploration, Gothic more when it comes to the great lore as well. I am curious tho, if Gothic or two worlds had the same editor functionality, what that effect would be in the long run?
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December 22nd, 2012, 03:10
I wouldnt say they're in a league of their own, and if they are then its a shame.
But no, they are Fantasy RPGs. First-person Fantasy RPG to specify further.

Everyone wants to cite exploration as being the cornerstone of these bum games, let me share my opinion of exploration: Exploration is most definitely the cornerstone of a great, open world RPG. Now what makes up exploration? First and foremost, the views and sights. And ill give Bethesda that, Oblivion looked great for its time, and Skyrim is even stunning at times, with the draw distance and the dynamic environment(s). BUT, why do we explore? To find things mostly, and I cant stand finding things in Skyrim
Seriously, consider, your one man (or two I suppose, give credit where its deserved) whos delving into a deep dark dungeon…and your going to kill everyone and loot the place dry…I cant stand it!
First of all, one thing I hate is a game in which 1) You can easily acquire so much money, like a fortune, and thatd be alright if it werent for 2) Nothing to spend that money on! Offer real entertainment, if your looking for immersion force the player to have to eat, and drink, its would give you a real reason to wander into a tavern and possibly find out something cool. Skyrim has this idea that their taverns are the Main hub of the town, and thats where players should go to find things out. Well the taverns are boring! Each and every one has a bard and couple quest givers. NOT ONE cool hooded guy sitting in the corner. Wtf right?
So you hit up 3 small dungeons, solo, on an easy difficulty. I can almost guarantee your gold problems will be solved. In fact, youll have so many generic, nameless (Know what I mean by that?) pieces of gear and treasure that youll end up giving some of the shit away to the shop keep!

Now would you rather, have to scale a tiny pass, dodge a boulder, ya know have to treverse some treacherous terrain, steep cliffs, and all for one unique, powerful item. A real magical item, not another damn war axe with (X) enchantment. Or another necklace with (X) enchantment, unless it applies to your character your just going to sell it. Thats what I meant by nameless. The items are nameless, they arent personal and im quite sure most of the loot is randomized. I would trade 3 inventories (I hate that too, why the hell can you walk into a dungeon and walk out with like, 6 warhammers? Plus more! Realistic loot carrying anybody?)
3 inventories of crappy crap crap for just 1 item, 1 special artifact that I actually had to go through hell and risk my ass for, and what if it had a story? What if that artifact has 5 different, unrelated things you can do with it? How about a cool, unique item that has no apparent use? But after carrying it for a while you notice a change in your character or something? I dont know, but most and most importantly, all of these cool features and ideas wouldnt be limited by technology, because its a choice to use my resources on fewer, but much much richer elements of the game. If the resources dont go there, then they go here instead, towards something better.

See, I feel like these games are going for quantity over quality. I love the size and scale of the worlds, but its almost no use without the proper features and content.
I have had tons of fun with these games since I was a kid, and it was only when I got bored and finally detached, declared that I might actually not like the game, is when I found its greatest faults.

I feel like Bethesda might be catching onto this, and maybe we can hope for something better next time, but its still going to follow the ES model, which in my opin. is not the right direction. What theyre hopefully getting is the reality of this One-flavor Skyrim thing that made the game dull and boring after so long.
They criticized Oblivion for being Too general, following your typical European fantasy game, and its cool that we could explore another, very singular region of Tamriel, thats awesome, if I liked the world and the lore.

They dont realize that Oblivion kept so many people playing because it WAS so general, and thats the model you want! You just expand on that further, and you know, ive caught wind of the new Skyrim DLC and I have to say thats a great move to make, to allow players to travel other lands, break the one-flavor curse. Even with Skyrims wonderfully crafted world, with the different biomes (kinda) and all, its still just that same Skyrim flavor, equipped with the character binding Dovahkiin element (Playing my Dovahkiin was a blast though, I have to admit) and the same damn start to the game every time. Skyrim is a much better game than Oblivion…Oblivion had a better flavor. Ya know, it tasted better, and I hope you can all connect with that.

More on the lore though, honestly I always found it cheesy; laughable npcs, not a single bad ass voice on one of 'em either, and just the whole tone of whats going on, I never really wanted to be a part of it, id make up my own stuff. Now see thats a big thing right there: As a designer, you want to make a world that players Want to be a part of. It might sound obvious, but really think about that.

I know a lot of you still enjoy these games, and like their lore and world. I just dont like Cat people I guess Or lizard people, but you know what? Every wicked, mismatched beast race HAS a place, but its probably not in the towns, not as the shopkeep and probably not even a playable race, ya know?
In our world we have a reptilian race, but theyre nestled deep within our Great Bog, far away from any kind of civilized nation. We didnt do that on purpose or anything, to keep them far from the towns, we just thought it made sense.
Same deal with the orcs, if an Orc, or lizard man for that matter, found his way into the main country, the men would ruin this creature. Hell they wouldnt even make it past the Borderlands
I respect peoples decisions and tastes, you want to have a whole nation of cat folk? Go for it, but its not necessarily a world I want to be part of. Ill play it for the game it is, but ill never adopt its ideas or use them out of context, because they arent cool enough. But im one person and these games appeal to a very broad spectrum of people. And there you go, you have money getting in the way of good videogames. Should we make a game thats worthy of our name and who we are? No, make a silly stupid game that everyone will kind of love. Because that means sales! I say screw sales. Not really, BUT, hardcore games always get more respect and seem to have a smaller, but stronger fan base, those are the mof*cking sales I want.
I suppose ill wrap up, for the hardcore gamers out there, the RPG enthusiasts and all the tabletop roleplayers, you know the struggle. Not saying there isnt fun to be had here, because there is, but I am saying that theres 100% more fun to be had from another first-person RPG. By way of different features and innovative thinking.

Thanks for reading

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Last edited by TheWharfMaster; December 22nd, 2012 at 03:42.
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December 23rd, 2012, 00:40
Well that was one long, and well-thought out post. It got a little chaotic and incoherant there at the end tho.

That said, I disagree with the entire thing. Except for the part about the 6 warhammers, I agree that the concept of carrying around a small warehouse of inventory in your pockets is ridiculous. However, i find that in practice when do I encounter a game that limits my inventory to a very small and "realistic" amount, I end up hating it way more.
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