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Default Major Explosion in Oslo - Pm's office destroyed

December 5th, 2011, 20:24
It's a tough call. When is someone so sick, and unwilling to accept or fix it, that one needs to take proactive measures before he does himself or someone else harm? I don't know the answer, and have had little success with a loved one in such a situation…
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December 5th, 2011, 20:28
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
I was discussing the 25% study, just as I stated. There's a difference between cancer and "restless leg syndrome (RLS, to make it sound even more ominous)".
I got it from a lecture and when I checked back it actually say 22-23%. I found a couple of articles to support this number.
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma…ticlekey=21466

Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Somehow, I'm guessing there's a difference between Breivik-nuts and "25% non-typical", too.
There are people worse than Breivik that works very well. There are people healthier than Breivik that follows the same pattern. One important part is social integration. How much time do the person spend with opposing views and a good variation of people. Becoming separated with alternate news sources is not a good environment for anyone, especially not someone with a disorder. Unfortunately these kind of disorder tend to make these people into loners.

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December 5th, 2011, 21:02
It could be up to the individual to realise that what other people think isn't necessarily all that important.

At least, I don't think "people" are necessarily responsible for what they believe more than the individual is.
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December 6th, 2011, 11:15
The person seriously belongs to insane asylum for the rest of his life. His cell neighbours jesus and napoleon wont be impressed by his claims of templar knighthood.

If he ever becomes sane he will realise he killed lots of people for nothing. Perhaps he will commit a suicide.

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August 24th, 2012, 20:01
Verdict fell today. Breivik (the killer) was judged to be sane, and was sentenced to 21 years in preventive detention. 21 year is the longest term possible under Norwegian law, but since he was sentenced to preventive detention, it can be prolonged 5 years at a time as long as he's still considered a danger to society. The prosecution won't appeal, and neither will Mr. Breivik. There's no guarantee he will remain behind bars for the rest of his life, but it's considered likely he will be kept in detention for several decades.

Most comments, including those from relatives and their lawyers are positive.

Our authorities will consider 2 important issues after this:

1. The role of forensic psychiatry, since two groups of psychiatrists came to different conclusions regarding his sanity

2. The level of punishment. We haven't encountered anything close to this before, and as a result there's no difference between the sentence you get for murdering 1 or 2 people under aggravating circumstances and brutally excecuting 77. We won't reintroduce the death penalty, and we won't adopt a system where he could have faced 77 lifetime sentences. I guess we'll land on something between 30 and 40 years for the really severe crimes. And focus will still be on rehab.

pibbur who thinks justice have been served.

EDIT: I have only commented on what is discussed regarding Norwegian penalty law and processes. In addition there are a lot of issues conserning how the police handled the situation, our handling of securtiy, how prepared we were (we weren't) and such. An evaluating committee has recendly released their report, and found a lot of things to critisize, but I choose not to go into that.

EDIT 2: I originally used the term "custody", the correct term seems to be detention og preventive detention.

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Last edited by pibbur who; August 24th, 2012 at 20:49.
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August 24th, 2012, 22:54
Originally Posted by pibbur who View Post
EDIT: I have only commented on what is discussed regarding Norwegian penalty law and processes. In addition there are a lot of issues conserning how the police handled the situation, our handling of securtiy, how prepared we were (we weren't) and such. An evaluating committee has recendly released their report, and found a lot of things to critisize, but I choose not to go into that.
And pepole want heads to roll because Norway wasn't prepared for the unthinkable…

Übereil, who wonders how prepared Norway are for an alien invasion

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August 24th, 2012, 23:11
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
And pepole want heads to roll because Norway wasn't prepared for the unthinkable…

Übereil, who wonders how prepared Norway are for an alien invasion
Yepp, I agree completely. We've never seen anything like this before, not even close. It's a question of balance: A very open society which we prefer vs tight security.

A couple of years ago, one of the security measures which had been suggested by the police, closing Grubbegata, the street which Breivik later used to park the car with the bomb was characterized as unnecessarily desperate by the press.

pibbur who fears that Breivik succeeded in destroying this part of Norwegian society. And who thinks that now it's the time for taking things slowly and not act on impulse.

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August 25th, 2012, 00:34
I am very impressed how Norway has handled this.
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August 25th, 2012, 01:23
I think we handled the trial well (apart from some aspects of the forensic psychiatry evaluations), despite foreign reactions to the sentence. I also think we as a people to some degree managed to stay united, true to our traditions and not let strife and hatred grow too strong. - This sounds awfully noble and polite and "enlightened", doesn't it? But I don't know what other words to use.

But there are also a lot of things that was handled badly, even horribly so. There's lot of work to be done - 22/7 (that's how we write dates over here) will play a major role in our society and political processes for years to come.

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August 25th, 2012, 04:46
Norway's response seemed quite measured and dignified from what I've seen. Not easy in the face of such a nightmare.

My initial reaction to the 21 year sentence was WTF!!! Not long enough! But on closer inspection it all makes sense.
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August 25th, 2012, 08:22
I'm a little surprised that he was declared "sane". From everything that I have read about the background of Breivik and his behavior throughout the crime and the subsequent trial I would personally judge him to be completely bonkers.

I don't know enough about Norwegian law but if Norwegian law is as lax as our German law (here in Germany even the worst terrorists of the 1970s/1980s era have been released from jail in the meantime) then my guess is that they declared him sane because it might facilitate keeping him locked up once the 21 years are up.
At least I hope so. I'd hate to see this guy walk free again. In Germany he would have a very high chance to get out one day. I sincerely hope that the Norwegian verdict is making it impossible for him to be released from jail - ever.
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August 25th, 2012, 10:59
I still believe he is completely sane - but that he "suffers" a complete distortion of his personal reality - we call it "loss of reality" in German language.

How far this can go was proved by a certain case reported by the recent press here : An elderly man had shot/killed a young wife because he believed that in the appartment above him illegal work/labour was taking place - constantly emenating noise and not allowing him to sleep. He REALLY believed that there was an illegal tiny factory in the appartment above him !

The reality was quite different. The noise just wasn't there, and the *real* noise he had killed her for was from huge luggage being pulled into the appartment and opened/handled by the husband who had come home from a (business ?) journey.

That's what I call "complete loss of reality" : signs are interpreted SO wrongly that they make the interpreting person appear to be insane - or, as Moriendor put it "completely bonkers". It is going towards Paranoia, I think (but I'm not at all an expert in Psychology).

Apart from this "loss of reality", a person can be completely sane.

By the way, an very extreme and rather creepy example of this "loss of reality" can be read by the story "The Tell-Tale Heart" by Mr. Edgar Allan Poe. You should read it through to see what I mean !


Apart from that, I believe as well, that Mr. B. should be in jail forever.
Someone with THAT big "loss of reality" shouldn't be allowed to walk through streets anymore !

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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August 25th, 2012, 11:00
Now anyone who's anti-Islam can be compared to him, the sentence is obviously political, he will continue to serve a purpose instead of being rendered a useless "insane" person who can't be connected to anyone or anything. It also made the victims families happy, which probably was very important. That's all it is.

SiiiiLENCE the DISCOOOORD…
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August 25th, 2012, 13:17
Originally Posted by Moriendor View Post
I'm a little surprised that he was declared "sane". From everything that I have read about the background of Breivik and his behavior throughout the crime and the subsequent trial I would personally judge him to be completely bonkers.
Criminally sane in the sense not being psychotic. He's still considered a very disturbed person, what we prevously would call a psychopath ("psychopathy" has been replaced by several more specific descriptions, but for practical purposes I'll be using the "original" term). Psychopaths are in general not considered criminally insane.

The sentence, which is 90 pages long, examines the observations of the forensic psychiatric teams thoroughly and in detail. The conclusion seems to be very well founded.
I don't know enough about Norwegian law but if Norwegian law is as lax as our German law (here in Germany even the worst terrorists of the 1970s/1980s era have been released from jail in the meantime) then my guess is that they declared him sane because it might facilitate keeping him locked up once the 21 years are up.
At least I hope so. I'd hate to see this guy walk free again. In Germany he would have a very high chance to get out one day. I sincerely hope that the Norwegian verdict is making it impossible for him to be released from jail - ever.
Basically he could have got 3 different sentences:

1. He would not be punished if he was declared insane. Technically, he could then be acquitted, if he wasn't considered dangerous, but obviously, that does not apply in this case. In stead he would be committed to psychiatric ward for an unspecified period, reevaluated every 3 years, based on his mental state and prognosis. This way he could be kept in detention for the rest of his life, but he could also be released fairly early, if responding well to treatment.

2. If considered sane, but not particularly dangerous (like in most murder cases), he would receive an ordinary prison sentence, up to 21 years, which is the longest possible term under Norwegian law. After that, he would be released.

3. Breivik was found to be sane, but very dangerous, and was predicted to remain so for a very long time (in general psychopaths respond poorly to treatment). Therefore he was sentenced to preventive detention for up to 21 years. After 21 years, if they still consider him dangerous, the prosecution can go to court, asking for his detention to be prolonged by 5 more years at the time. The court's decision will mostly be based on his dangerousness, not the severity of the crime. Thus he can be kept behind bars forever, and as such, this is the most severe penalty possible in Norway (commitment to psychiatric ward is not considered punishment)

After 10 years, Breiivik can appeal to court asking to be released, and if denied, again after 5 more years. Technically, he could therefore set free long before his 21 year term runs out, but no one believes that would happen. His potential of improvement is almost non existing, and it's not likely the court would take the risk of releasing him even if he appeared to have seen the light and the error of his ways.

We don''t know what decisions will be made 30, 40 or 50 years from now, of course, but the general impression is that he will remain in detention for many decades, quite possibly the rest of his life.

In a poll obtained just after his sentence, 85% of Norwegians agree with his sentence.

pibbur who regrets that he's too old to start a third university education.

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Last edited by pibbur who; August 25th, 2012 at 13:36.
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August 25th, 2012, 15:06
Originally Posted by Moriendor View Post
I'm a little surprised that he was declared "sane". From everything that I have read about the background of Breivik and his behavior throughout the crime and the subsequent trial I would personally judge him to be completely bonkers.
I thought so initially, but during the year since the attack I've noted that his crazy ideas and weird logic are common enough among a subset of the far right. It is basically the Eurabia theory on steroids plus a feeling that he "cultural marxist" elites are covering things up.
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August 25th, 2012, 15:56
Originally Posted by Zaleukos View Post
I thought so initially, but during the year since the attack I've noted that his crazy ideas and weird logic are common enough among a subset of the far right. It is basically the Eurabia theory on steroids plus a feeling that he "cultural marxist" elites are covering things up.
It never ceases to amuse me how biased people like to throw in “right-wing” or “far-right” when it comes to racists just because. Belong to a leftist-socialist group? Doesn’t matter, far-right.

Does anyone know the logic behind this? There actually isn’t any. The leftists disliked all the racists being associated with them and started calling them “far-right” or “right-wing.” And since the actual “right-wing” people were too busy working and believing people have brains and can think, they didn't argue with this obvious nonsense. Look at this article; does anyone see any major contradiction?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31751_16…ndon-olympics/

I can’t find a link to it, but study done in the US proved that the Aryan Nation were overwhelmingly Democrats. Not only did the support democrat candidates, they reaped the gains of the democrats since they were overwhelmingly unemployed, where union members, or collected social security disability. The women were overwhelmingly on welfare, wick, food stamps, and section 8 housing. Surprising as it may be, having racial tattoos all over your body makes you not very employable. Never mind the fact that the confederates were Democrats and the first Republican President ended slavery in the US.

And of course the vast right-wing conspiracy of evil white businessmen, who only care about money, actually care a great deal more about someone’s skin color. Why sell the blacks $300 sneakers when you can kill them because of white power? Killing and hating people for white power is very lucrative. It all adds up.
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August 25th, 2012, 16:30
That post didnt make much sense at all in the context of Breivik and Europe. Do not try to apply US labels and issues to events on this side of the pond.

Read his ramblings or a summary of those. He claims that Europe is about to be taken over by the muslim hordes, that this takeover is facilitated by conspiracy and/or omission by cultural marxists, certain types of liberals (a word with a different meaning in the US, your "liberals" correspond to social democrats), and feminists. He self identifies himself as a "national conservative".

He is not against welfare but against "islamisation" of Europe, which is a widespread theme among anti-immigration political parties who as far as they can be cathegorised are lumped together under a "far right" label (they tend to have their roots either in extreme libertarianism, reactionary catholicism, or neo-nazism depending on the country). These parties do tend to attract working class voters and thus take voters from the left, but that doesnt make the parties leftist (their policies tend to mix various "tough on-" stances with lower taxes AND welfare statism).

Of course Breivik takes this much further by wanting to wipe out the future leaders of the social democrats, but his underlying world view is sadly not THAT uncommon and mostly shared by PARTIES that usually are labelled far right.

EDIT: I am a rightwinger myself in some sense (maybe a "moderate libertarian" in US terms), but I dont have a problem with using the far right label to describe nutters like Breivik. One can argue that the left-right axis is inadequate for actually representing multi-dimensional political matters, but it's what we have and it is a Quixotic endeavour to challenge established terminology.
Last edited by Zaleukos; August 25th, 2012 at 16:46.
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August 25th, 2012, 18:21
Originally Posted by Zaleukos View Post
That post didnt make much sense at all in the context of Breivik and Europe. Do not try to apply US labels and issues to events on this side of the pond.

Read his ramblings or a summary of those. He claims that Europe is about to be taken over by the muslim hordes, that this takeover is facilitated by conspiracy and/or omission by cultural marxists, certain types of liberals (a word with a different meaning in the US, your "liberals" correspond to social democrats), and feminists. He self identifies himself as a "national conservative".

He is not against welfare but against "islamisation" of Europe, which is a widespread theme among anti-immigration political parties who as far as they can be cathegorised are lumped together under a "far right" label (they tend to have their roots either in extreme libertarianism, reactionary catholicism, or neo-nazism depending on the country). These parties do tend to attract working class voters and thus take voters from the left, but that doesnt make the parties leftist (their policies tend to mix various "tough on-" stances with lower taxes AND welfare statism).

Of course Breivik takes this much further by wanting to wipe out the future leaders of the social democrats, but his underlying world view is sadly not THAT uncommon and mostly shared by PARTIES that usually are labelled far right.

EDIT: I am a rightwinger myself in some sense (maybe a "moderate libertarian" in US terms), but I dont have a problem with using the far right label to describe nutters like Breivik. One can argue that the left-right axis is inadequate for actually representing multi-dimensional political matters, but it's what we have and it is a Quixotic endeavour to challenge established terminology.
My statements had less to do with the mass-murder who, in my opinion, should be tortured for 21 years and then tortured more in five year increments after that, than the illusion of a senseless dichotomy imposed by small minded people. Myself, I’m a staunch libertarian. I believe in freedom in all its evil glory, to the detriment of everyone for the benefit of everyone. The only freedoms that matter are the ones in which most people disagree with and try hard to make it illegal for others. I think most people who try to limit the freedoms of others are usually fanatics and surface-thinkers. Political parties are usually more unto crime families than anything, and once people pick a side they become blind to its faults. There is a republican I work with who refuses to believe Romney and the RNC are trying to strong arm Paul’s delegates and not allow Paul the 15 minutes speaking time he earned at the convention. He also fails to see Obama, in every significant way, is just a continuation of Bush, and Romney has the same exact track record as Obama. People seem to dislike pesky things like facts impeding their cult worship.

You seem to be more of a thinker than a regurgitater so you are okay in my book. If I’m to disagree with someone, I’d rather it be someone with comprehension and the capacity for original thought.
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November 2nd, 2012, 12:36
I don't quite remember anymore whether it was here or elsewhere … but there had been discussions on guns.

Now this : Apparingly the Duke Nukem voice actor doesn't like guns ? http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/11/01/ba…violence-guns/

The comments there are very much tale-telling, too.
The imho best comment there is the one by "Wulf".

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