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Default 6NOV: The Apocolypse Cometh

November 6th, 2012, 00:10
What ever happened to 1 vote, 1 value?

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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November 6th, 2012, 00:13
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
I'm looking at the more log term implications of having Romney nominate more rightwing activist judges like Scalia and his lap dog Thomas who put corporate interests above that of individuals and nation. The most important thing in this election is that Romney needs to be denied that opportunity.
And like the article said, this is the attitude that is enabling the two main parties to continue to screw things up.

Obama has hardly been free of corporate interests in his policy. His nominations to SCOTUS haven't been bad though.

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November 6th, 2012, 00:20
Originally Posted by Toff View Post
Why we can't vote online is baffling … I can do my banking online, submit my taxes online, do everything online but this.
Ideally I'd like to see online voting, but unfortunately the electronic system hasn't been built that can't be hacked. The amount of fraud would be staggering in the current environment.

Our election process is disappointing. I'd also prefer to drop electoral vote system and let the people decide. Whomever gets the most wins.
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Every state gets at least two votes (for the senate, I think), then rest (for the house) are based on population, total rounded up to at least 3. No state has less than 3 (not counting DC). Take away the freebies, and the ratios match.

The idea was to squash the tyranny of the majority by giving slightly more power to smaller states. Thus each state gets 2 (actually 3) for free.
One vote for each senator and one fore each congressman, so yeah its a minimum of three. So long as we are going to have a clear line between state and federal governments (technically the states are sovereign unlike most of the rest of the world), there needs to be some method to make sure the NY's, CA's, TX's and FL's don't absolutely control everything over the other 46. That said, the Electoral College is far from perfect.

What I would like to see is that states do away with the all or nothing approach of EC votes. I believe Nebraska and Colorado divide them roughly on the split of the popular vote or something like that. I would like to see if done where maybe the two senator votes are based on the return of the whole state, but then the congressman votes are determined by the congressman's district.

So in a state like TX, where the 'Valley' region (border of Mexico to around 100 miles in) is heavily democratic, those EC votes would go Democratic, and the rest of the state (minus Austin) would go Republican using the last election results. The 2 for the overall state would go Republican.

I'm not a huge fan of straight popular vote, but I think that would be a nice compromise.

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November 6th, 2012, 00:29
Yeah, I think it would be a good idea to get away from the all or nothing for each sate. It will take less emphasis from a few key swing states and give 3rd parties a better chance and more visibility.
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November 6th, 2012, 01:00
No. It was specifically designed to remove the tyranny of the majority from a few highly populous state, and instead reflect the geographically dispersed and unevenly populated areas of the country. How well is does that whether it's relevant today is of course suspect.
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November 6th, 2012, 02:33
Apparently the concept of tyranny of the majority eludes you. Google it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

Small states did not want to be squashed by big states. The system purposely gets rid of equal votes. It was not ignorant but purposeful.

EDIT: Think about it. This system will not change. It would require a constitutional amendment which would never be ratified by the smaller states. We're stuck with it.

Article II, Section 1, Clause 2 of the Constitution

So does this prove the founding fathers were always right?
Last edited by Thrasher; November 6th, 2012 at 02:43.
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November 6th, 2012, 02:50
I'm with Couchpotato on this one. I think my first post in this subforum was even on that subject! I'm getting more than a little tired of the electoral college changing my vote every four years.

If CA, TX, NY, and FL can actually team up on anything, I'll be shocked. What DOES worry me is that states with consistent 'swing' status get their local issues magnified way out of proportion. Look at our relations with Cuba, for instance. I bet our relations with them would be a lot more reasonable now if Florida was solidly Democratic or Republican.

The president represents the people of the USA. Each person gets one vote. Let the senate protect us from big states ganging up on little states.

I must admit, it won't be as fun, though. A big population like the whole USA is much more likely to "pick a winner" a month before the actual vote. But we need a good government, not a good spectacle.

If we get an electoral reversal so soon after Gore's defeat, maybe we can actually get both sides on the side of making this change.
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November 6th, 2012, 03:04
It's not a partisan issue. It's a small state vs. big state issue. Won't happen.
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November 6th, 2012, 03:11
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
It's not a partisan issue. It's a small state vs. big state issue. Won't happen.
The problem is that voting doesn't count for much for a Presidential ballot. All of the other elections do of course so you can make your case there, though even for Senators, they're trying to get a bill passed that the populace vote will not elect them either. It's all up the the Electoral college and whatever they decide. We've seen in the past that even if the popular vote wins out, the Supreme court takes the right to decide away from the people and just favors who they believe should be in office.

Will I vote? I don't know, I guess, but it just feels deflating knowing that my vote really doesn't count for much. It's not that there's a grudge that the candidate that I vote for doesn't win but that literally anyone that anyone votes for does not matter. It's the way our government was set up and it's the way that it always works out. The fact that you can vote does not mean it really has made a difference. Not one vote, not a thousand votes, not ten thousand votes will make a ripple big enough to really change the face of the political system in America

Each state gets an alloted number of electoral votes toughly based on population, determined by the US census. Ohio, based on its population gets 18 electoral votes for example. However, this isn't quite fair because all states, no matter how small get 3 electoral votes. So a small state like Hawaii gets 4. Anyway, now comes the tricky part.

48 out of the 50 states use a winner-take-all system. Meaning, whoever wins the popular vote, gets the electoral votes from that state. So let's take California for example. They get 55 electoral votes. Let's say the popular vote is 51% to 49% in favor of Obama over Romney in that state. Obama would get all 55 of California's electoral votes. Hence, winner-take-all. Only Maine and Nebraska, I believe, don't follow this, and allocate their electoral votes by congressional districts or something. To attain presidency, a candidate needs 270 electoal votes.

What if there's a tie? It's complicated, so I won't explain that. So this system's flaw is that is doesn't truly represent the people's voice. In my California example, those 55 votes that would go to Obama would not represent the vote. The 49% from that example pretty much voted for nothing.

This system is kept because it's in our constitution. But, it's flawed. Bush beat Gore in 2000 in electoral votes, but not the popular vote. And now look where we are.

Then it begs the question it's not really a democracy then is it? In the end the votes don't matter just the state. I wont deny people would try to abuse the popular vote. Like everything else some people ruin good things for others.

Millions of Americans, I'd say don't know anything about the electoral college and how it works. There I think I'm done with this topic. I cleared up and deleted my earlier posts to make more sense. This is the largest post I have ever done on the forum.

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Last edited by Couchpotato; November 6th, 2012 at 10:41.
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November 6th, 2012, 03:24
The constitution was written more to protect state rights than individual rights in this case. Remember there is nothing in the Constitution saying that each individual has a right to vote. Kind of screwy if you ask me.

We still have a representative form of democracy though. Pure democracies are rare.
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November 6th, 2012, 03:54
The Thrashman is partially correct about the Founder's intent with the Electoral College. He's missing the aspect that it was also a safety valve against the stupidity of the unwashed masses. With the politically active of the age being largely limited to gentlemen farmers, the Founders put the actual selection process in the hands of people they trusted (rich white male landholders like themselves) while maintaining a semblence of democracy. You'll note that the Constitution does not stipulate how electoral representatives shall vote—theoretically they could completely ignore the popular vote. Individual states have since codified how that works for each state, but the legal framework was set by the Founders to call an audible just in case the colonists elected (an invalid example, but illustrative) King George to be president.

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November 6th, 2012, 03:59
Tyranny of the majority, not missed.
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November 6th, 2012, 10:42
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
You might gain some understanding if you trade some of your "human psyche" insight for "basic accounting" insight. After all, the Euro "human psyche" model has proven to be successful and sustainable. Well, excepting Greece. And Spain. And Ireland. And Portugal. And Italy…
What Euro model? Are you aware that Europe is not one nation? I live in Denmark - and I just called our system a joke.

It's just not as corrupt as yours is, is all.
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November 6th, 2012, 11:12
Does it make big difference which one gets elected?

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Last edited by zakhal; November 6th, 2012 at 11:54.
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November 6th, 2012, 13:15
Regarding on line voting. We have that discussion here in Norway as well. One of the arguments against it, which has some merit, is that secret voting (if that's the correct expression in English) can't be guaranteed. When showing up at the voting-place(?) there are clerks who makes sure that only one person at a time may enter the voting closet(?).

At least this is how it's done in Norway, and therefore, as you all know, this is how to do it everywhere.

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November 6th, 2012, 14:52
Originally Posted by zakhal View Post
Does it make big difference which one gets elected?
No, and that's what really galls me about people that are so hot for either Romney or Obama.

I voted before coming into the office. Every opportunity I had, I voted for 3rd party (weren't third party candidates in all elections). I would have abstained on the others (mainly local), but the lady told me that the scanner machines some times mess up if you don't vote for someone in every election.

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November 6th, 2012, 14:54
Originally Posted by pibbur who View Post
Regarding on line voting. We have that discussion here in Norway as well. One of the arguments against it, which has some merit, is that secret voting (if that's the correct expression in English) can't be guaranteed. When showing up at the voting-place(?) there are clerks who makes sure that only one person at a time may enter the voting closet(?).

At least this is how it's done in Norway, and therefore, as you all know, this is how to do it everywhere.

pibbur who is certain that some of the words he used may seem awkward to the natives.
What do you mean by guaranteed? As it is today, I'm pretty sure they can tie a vote to a name in the US (not easily, but it can be done).

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November 6th, 2012, 15:14
I think he means that nobody is watching you vote and potentially can see what you have voted. This cannot be guaranteed with online voting.
I'm not sure about the laws in my country about this, but I'm pretty sure that being able to vote for any party or candidate and doing so in complete privacy is amongst them.

Votes can also not be tied to a person. What they could do is determine on which pile my vote is though.

We used to have computers for voting, but as it became common knowledge that your privacy could not be guaranteed 100% we reverted back to the paper and pencil method.

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November 6th, 2012, 15:16
What he's getting at is that with online voting, someone could be holding a gun to your head while you vote from your PC. With the current system, it's guaranteed that it's just you in the booth.

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November 6th, 2012, 15:17
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
What do you mean by guaranteed? As it is today, I'm pretty sure they can tie a vote to a name in the US (not easily, but it can be done).
When voting on line, for instance from home, there's no guarantee that no one looks over you shoulder and sees what you vote. The watcher may even instruct you how to vote and make sure that you do as your told. That is not possible when you enter the voting closet (still not sure if that's the correct expression) alone.

pibbur who only now saw that Myrthos and Dte told exactly the same before he did. And who thanks dte for giving him the proper words for "voting closet".

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