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Default Revisiting the Gold Box games

November 16th, 2012, 14:25
I like this topic.

During the past two years I (re)played all of the Gold Box games, except the second Buck Rogers games, which was just too much random encounters for my taste, and didn't offer anything new compared to the first game.

IMO, the Dragonlance trilogy is the best series.
There are three schools of magic, and Clerics actually worship named deities, which give different bonuses.
And the demi-humans are actually wothwhile to have in your party. Half-elves are rather useless though (unless you are Tanis). Elves and Dwarves are not nearly as restricted as their bretheren in the Forgotten Realms, and humans can't dual class, so there is more of a balance between the races. Dwarves can reach max levels as Fighters, and Elves max levels as magic-users.
Since humans can't dual class, the most powerful character will be a Qualinesti Elf Fighter/Magic-User. IIRC Ranger/Magic-User is not allowed, but Q.Elves can reach lvl 14 as Fighters.
But the Krynn games are much more hard core than the FR games. In the Krynn games Elves can't be Resurrected! And Disintegrated characters are GONE and can't be resurrected either. So if you play the Krynn games more or less Iron Man, you'll have to think long and hard about including elves. I included elves in my party and found that my playing style was affected by it, and I always tried to keep them away from things that could insta kill them, like Beholder rays and Dragon breath.

The Krynn games also have the Kender. I'm probably the only person who will admit to actually liking the Kender. They are funny, and they are useful, at least in the two first Krynn games, where their Taunts can be useful. Also, they make the usually useless Cleric/Thief combo viable, since they can backstab with their Hoopaks. And being immune to Fear can be useful at crucial times.

Champions of Krynn is actually the weakest of the Krynn games IMO. Things really pick up in Death Knights and Dark Queen is my favourite of all the Gold Box games.

Some tips:
The enemy AI was still very basic in COK. In later games enemies can move and then cast spells. This means if you are more than 12 squares away from a Magic-User and more than 6 squares away from a Cleric, you are safe from the Charm and Hold spells.



Spoiler – Also, nice to know about how random encounters work:


I largely agree with the OP's comments about modern AAA games. So now that I've played and replayed the Gold Box games, I'm having a good time with the Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures (FRUA) modules. Nearly 600 modules of variable quality are available and the community is still active.
Last edited by PetrusOctavianus; November 16th, 2012 at 15:17.
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November 16th, 2012, 14:52
I never played the Gold Box games, but I'd give them a try if someone could remake them with that Dungeon Craft engine.

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November 16th, 2012, 15:16
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I never played the Gold Box games, but I'd give them a try if someone could remake them with that Dungeon Craft engine.
Why is that?
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November 16th, 2012, 15:21
Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
I'm very much looking forward to his tantrums and wildly amusing antics when it comes to party building and survival within Pools of Darkness.
Ah, PoD is legendary, both for its harshness and the impossible end battles. The tantrums are going to be epic, I'd wager.

Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
I also started a C64 game of Champions of Krynn a couple of summers ago. My idea was to finish it on Veteran with a party of standard characters (with no stat modifications).
I'm playing on the default difficulty with unmodified characters. I salute your decision to play with standard, unmodified characters. Two thumbs up! Unmodified is the only way to go! I detest modded superman characters with 18 in all stats. Rerolling is OK, of course, and I did quite a lot of it, but not to any excessive degree - I didn't spend longer than a minute rerolling per character.

I think I might post the character record screens of my party here (for laughs, I didn't min-max and go full munchkin on them, so AD&D veterans ought to be amused at least).

Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
Well there you have it, now this thread has made me think about it getting it out again.
Go for it!

Also,
Originally Posted by PetrusOctavianus View Post
I like this topic.
I'll reply to your good post later, at work now and have to go… dang!

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November 16th, 2012, 15:23
Originally Posted by PetrusOctavianus View Post
But the Krynn games are much more hard core than the FR games.
I'll have to politely disagree with you on that one. I found Pools of Darkness much harder overall than Death Knights or Dark Queen or Krynn, particularly the last quarter of it and of course the ever so crazy and unique Dave's Challenge.

But it's also Curse of the Azure Bonds that has for me, the most memorable (and to some degree, challenging fights… if you don't have the Dust of Disappearance) namely the Beholder Corps, Dracandros' flock of Black Dragons, Dexam (that pesky bastard killed so many of my characters) with honourable mentions to both Moander and big Ty himself.
I guess I'm biased in that regard though, as Curse is probably my favourite of the series.

I think you'll also find that even in the Forgotten Realms stuff, elves can't be raised from the dead, so it's not something that only the Krynn games have - more so something integral to the version of AD&D.

I agree with you about Kender though - playing them was all kinds of fun Nothing like running around hoopaking monsters and blowing raspberries in their general direction to distract them from your casters.

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November 16th, 2012, 15:32
Originally Posted by PetrusOctavianus View Post
Why is that?
The Gold Box games in their original form are too dated for me to get into, and since I didn't play them when they were new, I also don't have the nostalgia factor going for me.
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November 16th, 2012, 15:45
Originally Posted by Lurking Grue View Post
Ah, PoD is legendary, both for its harshness and the impossible end battles.
Not impossible, just bloody hard.
I did them with the Amiga version back in the days, and recently with the DOS version. I even recorded the battles (sound is messed up, though). For the DOS version I had to edit my guys' DEX up to 18 to get good initiative, though.
The DOS version was made harder by the Ring of Electrical Immunity not working.
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November 16th, 2012, 15:57
Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
I'll have to politely disagree with you on that one. I found Pools of Darkness much harder overall than Death Knights or Dark Queen or Krynn, particularly the last quarter of it and of course the ever so crazy and unique Dave's Challenge.

But it's also Curse of the Azure Bonds that has for me, the most memorable (and to some degree, challenging fights… if you don't have the Dust of Disappearance) namely the Beholder Corps, Dracandros' flock of Black Dragons, Dexam (that pesky bastard killed so many of my characters) with honourable mentions to both Moander and big Ty himself.
I guess I'm biased in that regard though, as Curse is probably my favourite of the series.
I meant the rules are more hardcore.

But I agree with you about PoD and CoAB. The last battles in PoD are the most difficult of all the battles in the Gold Box games. Also the Dragon's Eyrie and the Heart of Moander were very difficult, as well as the whole Hap area in Curse of the Azure Bonds.
Dark Queen of Krynn is more consistent very hard, but never reaching the extremes of PoD and CoAB.
The Beholder Corps I actually defeated without using the Dust of Disappearance, since I had no idea it was that powerful. A friend of mine, to whom I was kind of a mentor, bragged about beating them (not mentioning the Dust) and I swore that if he could do it so could I. So with some shameless pre-buffing and even more shameless exploiting of the ultra weak AI and pathfinding, it was possible to defeat the Beholders and Drow Lords by luring them out of the room a few at a time and use my Hasted and Enlarged Fighter/Thief to backstab them. The Beholders were one square enemies in that game, and thus thankful backstabbing subjects.

I think you'll also find that even in the Forgotten Realms stuff, elves can't be raised from the dead, so it's not something that only the Krynn games have - more so something integral to the version of AD&D.
In the FR elves can't be Raised, but they can be Ressurrected. In Krynn neither works.
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November 18th, 2012, 03:17
Actually, the FR games, at least in Treasures of the Savage Frontier, disintegration was permanent there as well. There's a Beholder fight in there I recall having to reload about a dozen times because, while I could win, I usually lost most of my party before it was over with, and no rez. Elves also could not be raised in those games as well, IIRC. At least in Secret of the Silver Blades and Treasures of the Savage Frontier.

*EDIT* Forgot about ressurection, and didn't even think about whether it could be used on elves or not.

The level limits on non-humans were, to me, the most idiotic thing about AD&D, and the thing I hated most about it. I always ignored it myself in PnP settings, but computer games are another thing entirely.

I never could get into Pools of Darkness. Too high-level I guess. Or maybe it was because my old SotSB party was long gone by the time I got it, so I was stuck making new characters. And, because of the level limits, only humans were viable… ugh.

I did like the differences in the Krynn games as well, still my favorites of the bunch.

I'll try that work around, though knowing these games, I may end up losing a day or two. 4 day weekend coming soon, so we'll see.

I use DFend, which lets me set up a list, each with their own config setups, rather than having hordes of shortcuts in the games folders. In Linux and Android though, I do everything manually, which is a pain. I have ADosBox on my phone, which lets me play some DOS games on the go. Mine has a full qwerty keypad, so it's not too bad, but it does not like most 'newer' games. Never have gotten Might and Magic III to work, for example. Special keys like the F keys and CTRL are also not supported, so anything that uses them is out.

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November 18th, 2012, 04:06
Originally Posted by PetrusOctavianus View Post
The Krynn games also have the Kender. I'm probably the only person who will admit to actually liking the Kender. They are funny, and they are useful, at least in the two first Krynn games, where their Taunts can be useful. Also, they make the usually useless Cleric/Thief combo viable, since they can backstab with their Hoopaks. And being immune to Fear can be useful at crucial times.
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November 18th, 2012, 07:46
Aah… what memories….. as i have recently bought myself an android Pad, I`ll probably try playing these gems again…. anyone has a tutorial how to setup the Goldbox Games on android ?

L.
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November 18th, 2012, 13:57
Originally Posted by azraelck View Post
Actually, the FR games, at least in Treasures of the Savage Frontier, disintegration was permanent there as well. There's a Beholder fight in there I recall having to reload about a dozen times because, while I could win, I usually lost most of my party before it was over with, and no rez.
The most annoying thing about the Gold Box games was that some of the rules changed from game to game, perhaps even between DOS and Amiga versions.
For example wands: there was never a clear rule about which classes the various wands were resticted to. I think it was in Treasures of the Savage Frontier that I had two Wands of Ice Storm; one found in that game and the other imported from Gateway. One wand was restriced to magic users, while the other could be used by all but clerics.
Same with Dispel Magic. In most games you could use to it Dispel enemy Hold spells, but not so in Treasures, which was rather rage inducing in the penultimate fight against mages spamming Hold spells.
I also know for a fact that those times any party member was Disintegrated in the Krynn games, they were GONE for good, while in Pools of Darkness my Cleric was Disintegrated by Arcam's envoy, and was Resurrected, but all his gear was permanently gone. I got lucky vs the Beholders in Treasures, though.
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November 18th, 2012, 16:48
OK, for those interested, here's my party of stalwart adventurers in Champions of Krynn. These characters are all UNMODIFIED, i.e. all their stats are rolled fair and square, not fudged.

Do note that I didn't agonize long and hard on what sort of characters to make, instead I went with a more instinctive way, kind of roleplaying my choices. This may well bite me in the arse if/when I play the second game in the trilogy, if I port this party over, e.g. level caps for non-humans are quite harsh (and, IMHO, plain stupid). But that's waaay out there in the future, I'll worry about it then, possibly making a new party altogether.

I chose the basic, tried and tested party composition of 2 fighters, 2 clerics and 2 mages. One of the fighters is actually a knight (Krynn's version of a paladin). Also, one of the clerics and one of the mages is multi-classed. I probably should have multi-classed the other mage too (as a fighter/mage), but I wasn't that well-prepared AD&D rules-wise to realize that when I made the party and now I'm too far into the game to start over. I'll roll with the punches and hope for the best. (NB: The Krynn trilogy does not allow dual classing for humans, which is quite a big change from the other AD&D games.)

Without further ado, here's the party (after two level ups since the start):





PC 1: Gregor is a Knight of the Crown and the leader of my party. He started with a suit of plate mail (see footnote 1) and a broad sword (see footnote 2), none of the other classes start with any pre-bought equipment. Check out that STR score! Not too shabby, eh? As he levels up he has a chance to change the knightly order he belongs to, if he meets the stat requirements, which he easily does. This will give him the spell-casting abilities of a paladin (at lvl 6), but also increase the XP requirements to level up and (IIRC) increase the amount of money he has to tithe when they enter a town (this can be cheated by not having the knight carry any money on him). I haven't changed the knightly order yet, since he's only at level 3 and wouldn't gain any advantage of the change now. Once Gregor hits level 6, I think I will.

Looking at the inventory you'll see several melee weapons on him. It is a very good idea to carry at least two melee weapons on you, as the Baaz Draconians (which you'll be fighting early on) will turn to stone when they die and sometimes your weapon gets stuck in them when they do. You can recover the stuck weapon after the fight, but unless you have a spare weapon, you're fighting the rest of the battle bare handed. Not a good idea.

Gregor is also carrying some extra crud on him (e.g. the scale mail), which I'm going to sell once I get back to town. However, money doesn't seem to be an issue in this game. I'm only at the 1st dungeon's 2nd floor (basement, actually) and I already have more money that I can spend. I think I have about 8000 steel pieces (Krynn's equivalent of gold pieces) in bank at the moment. I'm a creature of habit, it seems, and even if the loot is (largely) irrelevant, I still like to take a little of it. For the sake of looting. You do get so many generic swords, maces and low level armours as loot in this game, that there is no sense in trying to loot them all (and the store at the town won't pay anything for them anyhow).





PC 2: Barukh is a dwarven fighter, my Gimli wannabe. Fighters start at level 2 and level faster than knights, so I expect Barukh to be my main "meat shield" and a mean, bearded killing machine who doesn't take no lip from pesky hobgoblins or mighty dragons. I would have equipped him with an axe, but alas there were none to be found. Sacrilege! Currently he's wielding a mace, as he's been fighting skeletons and they are better handled with a crushing weapon (extra crunchy).







PC 3: Estelle is a cleric of Mishakal, a deity of Good alignment, and to my surprise (hadn't noticed this before) 50 years old. Well, she certainly isn't slowed by her age and she swings her Flail +1 with righteous fervour and vigour. Undead flee before her in droves (she's been very successful in turning them). Being a follower of Mishakal grants her +1 die on all healing spells (very good) and extra spells of Charm Person, Remove Curse, and Bless, of which Charm and Bless have seen frequent use. She's not just a healbot, but a vital part of my party, who can kick arse and take names like the best of them.

There is an unidentified clerical scroll in her inventory, which I can't seem to find a place to get it identified. The temple in the town doesn't do it and the armourer/shopkeeper can't identify it. I guess having one of my mages cast Read Magic and check it out could ID it, but I haven't gotten around to testing that yet.

Whoa, this is getting long and I've got to run. I'll finish this in another post. I've got three party members, the back line to this trio of front liners, to introduce still. Until then!



Footnote 1: I have to grumble a bit about this misnomer. There is no such thing as plate MAIL or scale MAIL, etc. The word "mail" (or maille) is not synonymous with armour, it means one specific type of armour, that which is called chainmail in most RPGs. So, you should only have mail/maille armour, or chainmail if you like. Other armours, like plate or scale, ought to be just that: "plate" (i.e. plate armour) or "scale" (i.e. scale armour). NOT plate mail or scale mail. There, I've said it. I feel better now.

Footnote 2: Another grumble, I'm sorry. This ought to be named an "arming sword", most likely. Broadsword is an anachronism, but I'll let it slide for now. It's been rooted in the RPG vocabulary and isn't as bad as that plate mail malarkey I ranted about above.

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November 18th, 2012, 17:25
Lurking Grue, interesting to read about your characters. And it's nice to see non-maxed characters for a change. I can't help but smirk at those who post Let's Play videos on YouTube with characters all having stats of 18s and 19s, and 255 HP.

Personally I roll one character for each race, gender and alignment combo, and then choose the best ones. DEX is definitely the most important stat, since it decides initiative (which is all important in the most difficult fights), AC and missile THAC0. STR can usually be improved by Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Girdles of Giant Strength and the Enlarge spell. At higher levels the Enlarge spell lasts for hours and if you don't Search every square it will last one area level, making it (to me at least) more valuable than Magic Missiles.

Your Cleric is "old" because she's a half-elf. A single class Cleric is very useful in the two first games, but in the last one she won't be able to contribute much in combat.

In the later games you have the option of creating Paladins. There is no mention of paladins in the Dragonlance books I've read, and there is hardly any difference between them and the Knights, so I don't see the point in them.
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November 18th, 2012, 17:59
Knights are better than paladins anyway. The pally spell table is restricted to that of the FR games, while I vaguely recall high level knights being able to cast high level clerical spells such as raise dead.

Not to mention that a knight allows you to control allies in Death Knights:-)
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November 18th, 2012, 23:07
I started CoK last night too (had some problems with the save game folder but once I edited the .cfg file, it was all good).
My party is like this:
- Human Knight
- Dwarf Cleric/Fighter
- Kender Cleric/Thief
- Elf Mage
- Elf Cleric/Mage
- Human Ranger

Only played for a bit (one battle so far), but liking it (only thing I don't like is having to check the PDF journal frequently, guess I should print those pages), and the lack of in-game info (par for the course way back then)
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November 19th, 2012, 01:58
Alright, here's the rest of my party:







PC 4: Jonas the resident Kender and a thief (who would've guessed). He's also a cleric of Kiri-Jolith (the joys of multi-classing). Gotta have a Kender in a Dragonlance game! Kenders have a special ability to Yell at the enemies in combat - this is basically what other CRPGs call a "taunt". It only works against intelligent creatures and they get a save to avoid the effects, but I've noticed that most low level opponents succumb to the Kender's badmouthing and ridicule. If the enemies fail their save, they become so distracted and enraged that their AC is increased by 2 (which makes them easier to hit) and their THAC0 is reduced by 2 (making them miss more often). The downside for the Kender is, that all those enemies who failed their saves, will now want the Kender dead (i.e. they target him). But if you place him behind a defensive line, he can use his staff sling (called a hoopak) with unlimited ammo and rain sling stones on the enemies, while he's safe behind his friends. Should the need arise, he can also melee enemies with his hoopak. It functions both as a ranged and as a melee weapon. Handy.

Being a cleric of Kiri-Jolith (another Good aligned deity) grants Jonas +1 to his THAC0, which is never bad, and a bonus spell of Detect Magic, which is indispensable in sorting out magical items from regular loot. Speaking of magical items, the great thing about Champions of Krynn is, that it has been fairly stingy in distributing magical items (at least so far). I like that. Even potions are quite rare. I've only found two healing potions in one entire level of the starter "dungeon" (it's an abandoned town, but let's just call it a dungeon none-the-less). Had this been a modern game, I bet the starter dungeon would have been littered with healing potions.

Jonas has three unidentified magical items in his inventory (that scroll, those 10 arrows and a mystery potion). Once I get back to town, I'll have them identified, except the scroll (see previous post). They don't show it now, but when Jonas uses his Detect Magic spell, magical items get a star in front of them (e.g. *flail). When you ID them, they get their proper name (e.g. flail +1).

I'm having Jonas wear chainmail for now, even if it forbids him from getting back stab bonuses (you can only wear leather armour at most for that). I'm currently rarely using him in melee, relying on the hoopak's ranged attack more. It is, however, fairly weak (damage: 1d4+1) and once it starts becoming a problem (when enemy HPs rise high enough), I'll probably start using him in melee more often (the hoopak can do a back stab) and have him use just leather armour.







PC 5: Alina is my red mage. Mages in Krynn belong into one of three schools/orders: white, red or black. These are based on their alignment, good, neutral or evil, respectively. You can only have white or red mages in your party in CoK. I chose to have one of both. Red mages level up a bit faster than white mages after level 3 and get 3rd level spells one level earlier. The manual seems to be a tad inaccurate on the facts, unfortunately, as it states red mages cannot get the Sleep spell, but Alina's been using it all the time. We'll see how many other surprises I'll bump into.

Sleep is a vital spell in a mage's arsenal. It's the only way a low level mage can make a weighty contribution to a bigger battle and often times it is the win or lose spell of a fight. If my mages get the initiative, I can sleep many enemies (especially enemy casters) at once and level up the playing field considerably. At first, I didn't have my casters memorize the old staple Magic Missile at all. If they only get to cast two spells before they need to rest, one of them has to be Sleep, the other can usually be Charm Person.

The darts are, by the way, very handy despite their puny damage (1d3). Once an enemy is under either Sleep or Hold Person spell, it only takes one hit from a dart to kill them and the darts automatically hit. Yes, the darts become heat-seeking missiles of death; mages can kill swaths of enemies with them. "Say hello to my little friend!"







PC 6: Last but not least, Enedil is my white mage. A silvanesti elf of 312 years and still only at level 3. He's really been taking it slow… It also dawns on me now, that I remembered it wrong in my last post. Both of my mages are pure mages. I could have sworn I had one of them multi-class. Not so. I'm definitely going to create a new party, better optimized, for Death Knights of Krynn. If I ever get that far. Had I made him a fighter/mage he could've used a bow and do some damage when out of spells. Them darts aren't much good on conscious enemies and besides pure mages have such a poor THAC0, that they'd rarely hit anything if they need to roll for a hit.

Looking at Enedil's inventory, we'll see one of the two healing potions I've found so far. I'm hoarding that like an old miser. That quarterstaff, btw, is not just for show. It has (in a certain dire emergency) claimed at least two hobgoblins who tried to make closer acquaintance with this elf. Not liking their cologne nor their poor table manners, Enedil clobbered them into bloody pulp. Maybe they get better treatment in hobgoblin heaven.

Right, there they are. The Furious Six. The Sextet of Awesome. The Fellowship of Doom. (Cue action movie music and pyrotechnics.)

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November 19th, 2012, 04:25
Nice party.

My own party was this:

Human Knight
Human White Mage
Kender Cleric/Thief
Silvanesti Elf Ranger/Cleric
Qualinesti Elf Fighter/Red Mage
Dwarf Fighter (I considered replacing him with a Human Paladin in Death Knights, but I guess I have a soft spot for ugly, little midgets with big axes).

I think this is a good compromise between power gaming and trying to have all the races represented.
The White Mage being single class and thus leveling faster focused on damage spells, while the multiclassed Red Robe focused more on spells like Haste, Slow, Hold Monster and spells that made him more durable as a melee fighter.
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November 19th, 2012, 15:55
Made it through Throtl Catacombs yesterday. Woot! Got thoroughly lost in the final part of the dungeon as I made a mistake in my mapping and was hurrying towards the end (it was well past midnight then). I did somehow manage to stumble onwards to the right direction. There I was rolling on like a whirlwind of swords and spells, slaying any and all opposition on my way, when the game gave me a pause. A warning of things to come. I didn't take the warning seriously, because surely the game won't make me face those things now, at this low level - only to find out there were two of them waiting for me. I nearly soiled my pants. However, to my surprise they weren't that hard to beat and I guess were the lower tier of those things. My AD&D lore failed me, again.

Spoiler


Originally Posted by PetrusOctavianus
There are three schools of magic, and Clerics actually worship named deities, which give different bonuses.
Yeah, this is great. I never liked how the clerics are so bland in the non-Krynn games. The same goes for mages, to a lesser degree. They were all so generic.

Originally Posted by PetrusOctavianus
Elves and Dwarves are not nearly as restricted as their bretheren in the Forgotten Realms, and humans can't dual class, so there is more of a balance between the races. Dwarves can reach max levels as Fighters, and Elves max levels as magic-users.
This is also very good. To me Dual Classing has always felt like a cheat (more or less) and made non-humans even more undesirable as they couldn't do it, in addition to being level capped.

I find the early AD&D rules very quirky and clumsy, at times even plain stupid, as I've said before. However, I do still like the game regardless of the rules and that speaks volumes on the quality of the game, IMO.

Originally Posted by PetrusOctavianus
So if you play the Krynn games more or less Iron Man
No, no, I don't play in Iron Man mode. I like to preserve what little is left of my sanity.

Originally Posted by PetrusOctavianus
Champions of Krynn is actually the weakest of the Krynn games IMO. Things really pick up in Death Knights and Dark Queen is my favourite of all the Gold Box games.
Really? Well, I shall look forward with great interest to the subsequent parts in the trilogy then. Not sure if I'll have the stamina to go through all three, as these old games require a bit more effort to play than modern ones (mapping by hand, archaic interface, etc.), but I'll certainly try.

Originally Posted by PetrusOctavianus
The enemy AI was still very basic in COK. This means if you are more than 12 squares away from a Magic-User and more than 6 squares away from a Cleric, you are safe from the Charm and Hold spells.
Thanks, this is good to know, but most of the time you are well within 12 squares of an enemy mage and often also within 6 squares of an enemy cleric. I can recall maybe 2 or 3 fights in my previous "bout" with CoK, where I was beyond 12 squares from the enemy.

Originally Posted by PetrusOctavianus
Your Cleric is "old" because she's a half-elf.
Aye, I noticed that too. Heh, didn't remember I made her a half-elf.

Originally Posted by PetrusOctavianus
I guess I have a soft spot for ugly, little midgets with big axes
Welcome to the club! I'd phraise that description: "ugly little midgets with big beards and even bigger axes".

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November 20th, 2012, 18:14
A question to you good sirs and ladies knowledgeable in old AD&D rules. I found Bracers of AC 6 during my adventures in the catacombs, but am unsure what they do exactly. I had one of my warriors wear them (who had AC 0), but they didn't do anything to his AC. Then I had one my mages wear them (with AC 7 or 8), and that dropped her AC to 4 or so (can't check, at work now). So, apparently they work only if you have AC above 6 and then drop the AC either by 6 from base AC of 10 OR drop it by 6 from base AC including your DEX modifier. Or something. Can any of you give me a definite answer?

(BTW, I flipped though the manual, but didn't find anything detailing how Bracers of AC 6 are supposed to work. It's been so long since I last played an AD&D rule set game, that I just don't remember this.)

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