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Default Kickstarter - Thorvalla Waiting for your Pledge

November 20th, 2012, 16:54
Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
Oh - and I don't like Comic-Style Graphics for my Games…
From the first update on KS:

"All of you want to see more of the game, and that is completely understandable. You are excited about the project, as are we. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t giddy to the bone.

However, at such an early stage of the project, it is not easy to create material that lends itself to being shown off. Much of it would be simply confusing or misleading. Currently, there is a lot of experimentation going on, as we try to lock down the look and feel of the game, and the first sketches we put up along with this campaign are a perfect example, how quickly wrong impressions can be created. Therefore, let me just assure everyone that we are not going for a cartoony look. These first sketches were just random ideas that artist Juan Garcia jotted down based on story ideas we floated around the team. Juan has a strong comic book background and as a result some of his images also turned out a bit comic book-like. Visually, this is not the style we are aiming for. What we do aim for is the kind of kinetic energy you can see in his drawings. There are some incredible dynamics at work in his pictures, creating very striking poses. That part, we definitely strive for; characters that instantly fascinate and rev up your imagination.

The actual look of the game will be much more realistic, offering beautifully painted characters and 3D-modeled representations of them. We may be a bit experimental in parts of the game, but I give you my promise that the look will not be part of it. I am simply too much in love with traditional fantasy paintings."
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November 20th, 2012, 17:52
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Crediting Henkel for Planescape is like crediting Feargus for Fallout.
Mobygames says Tim Cain had the equivalent position on Fallout. (producer)

Not that their work wasn't important, or that you don't need someone doing that job, but it doesn't make you the "creator", a tag usually assigned to creative driving forces. And those are usually more than a few people for a video game, Torment is kind of unique in having such an identifiable single driving force in Avellone, though people should probably recognize the work of others more.
Only the involved people know. I have no reason to doubt the things Guido explained in calm words in that certain interview a few years ago, as I wouldn't have any reason to doubt other ex-Black Isles if they were to explain their side of the story.
It's clear his role on Torment was absolutely relevant. Check Avantenor's interview for the details.

It stretches things a bit to claim he "created" it - in said interview he gives full credit to the usual suspects - but the other people involved also usually forget to mention him. So why can't he do the same? He didn't say "alone".

Also, he didn't retire, he just made crappy mobile games with 3G studios for the last 10 years. I guess that's a form of retirement, heh.
No, he retired. The mobile games were only a brief excursion. He earned his money with writing, e-books and a big DVD review site.


I don't think this is accurate. They're all promising old-school games, Henkel just dislikes the term old-school. Henkel has talked a bit about re-inventing cRPG mechanics but he hasn't actually shown any solid design. That's the problem. Not that he's promising innovation where Obsidian/inXile did not, but that where Obsidian/inXile could set expectations by pointing to a set of games (Wasteland, Fallout, Infinity Engine) and going "we want to make it kinda like that", Henkel has just talked vaguely about his ideas and concepts. With Kickstarter further along you need to be more precise, have more solidified design to show, while Henkel has less, and that's why this is bombing so hard. He has less name recognition *and* less to show, that's just a killer combination.
Complex topic. Of course his Kickstarter kick off wasn't exactly ideal. But having to show a lot is actually the thing Charles mentioned below.
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November 20th, 2012, 18:22
Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
Mobygames says Tim Cain had the equivalent position on Fallout. (producer)
Credits aren't exactly the same thing as role. Cain was the originator of Fallout just like MCA originated the Torment concept. Henkel's role on Torment was closer to Feargus' role on Fallout. Their titles aren't too relevant to that.

Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
It's clear his role on Torment was absolutely relevant.
It is. No one denies this. "Creator" is an odd claim. I don't really care, personally. Let him call himself that. But I wouldn't try to refute people who note it's an odd claim, either.

Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
No, he retired.
From the man himself: "I've been running my my own company, G3 Studios, for 10 years now and thus there's no reason to involve attic." Been running. For 10 years now.

Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
Complex topic. Of course his Kickstarter kick off wasn't exactly ideal. But having to show a lot is actually the thing Charles mentioned below.
Charles?
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November 20th, 2012, 18:54
Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
It stretches things a bit to claim he "created" it - in said interview he gives full credit to the usual suspects - but the other people involved also usually forget to mention him. So why can't he do the same? He didn't say "alone".
There is a statement from Guido himself about that at:
http://nlt-hilfe.crystals-dsa-foren.de/page.php?216.1
Question 19.
Well it's in German, but to give a short summary:
He states that his name isn't so present at Planescape torment because he was "just" producer and while he did most of the technical design it was Chris and Colins Baby. But everything needed to be approved by him and he also showed the direction in which content and story should go.

As additional reason he mentions (quite lengthly) that as a producer you are not the most popular person on the project, standing behind people, giving orders, firering people, telling them they don't get more money and so on. He says that the job of a producer is crap and after Planescape he swore to himself to never do it again. And that is his reason why keeps getting not mentioned, because he was never accepted as a "creative" member of the team, though he added to the code, added ideas, design desicions and so on - and he is sure that his influence on PT was bigger than the ones from Chris Avellone, Eric Campanella or Dave Maldonaldo
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November 20th, 2012, 19:01
Gorath already cited that interview earlier. It's a good thing he dropped that belligerent, indignant tone for his Codex interview and hopefully for future interviews. Saying his influence on Planescape: Torment is bigger (or as he puts it, more "wide-reaching") than MCA's is nothing short of delusional. Chris wrote the very original pitch document. He wrote half the dialog. Be real.
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November 20th, 2012, 19:05
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Gorath already cited that interview earlier. It's a good thing he dropped that belligerent, indignant tone for his Codex interview and hopefully for future interviews. Saying his influence on Planescape: Torment is bigger (or as he puts it, more "wide-reaching") than MCA's is nothing short of delusional. Chris wrote the very original pitch document. He wrote half the dialog. Be real.
Well, he also states that he worked on Fallout2 and it's quite believable.
But if you check the credits of Fallout2…well…guess that can be interpreted in both ways.
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November 20th, 2012, 19:14
I'm not really staring myself blind on credits, they can be misleading. No doubt he did some work on Fallout 2 at crunch, that's how it usually works in companies that big, you divert some guys to help out for the final weeks. Doesn't really earn them a part in the credits, though, nor is it really a particularly noteworthy contribution.
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November 20th, 2012, 19:20
Old saying in Germany:

Success has many fathers. Failure is no-one's child.

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - HL Mencken
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November 20th, 2012, 19:29
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Doesn't really earn them a part in the credits, though, nor is it really a particularly noteworthy contribution.
Guess that depends on the point of view and is probably different in each company. My experience is, that it's part of the good tone of the company to include everyone who participated in the credits, showing respect and gratitude to the employees.
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November 20th, 2012, 21:37
A bitter attitude doesn't sell new projects, though…
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November 20th, 2012, 22:01
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
A bitter attitude doesn't sell new projects, though…
He did not display a bitter attitude in that interview. His words were neutral, descriptional and unemotional, with the exception of the "crap job" statement. He was asked what exactly his role was, why he is usually not mentioned and what he thinks about this.

Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Credits aren't exactly the same thing as role. Cain was the originator of Fallout just like MCA originated the Torment concept. Henkel's role on Torment was closer to Feargus' role on Fallout. Their titles aren't too relevant to that.
I agree that titles meant nothing back then. Personally I don't know who did what exactly, and I don't really care.


It is. No one denies this. "Creator" is an odd claim. I don't really care, personally. Let him call himself that. But I wouldn't try to refute people who note it's an odd claim, either.
Sure, it sounds odd. But he worked on the project, full time and high up the ladder. Now he used a more colorful term for marketing reasons. Who cares.


From the man himself: "I've been running my my own company, G3 Studios, for 10 years now and thus there's no reason to involve attic." Been running. For 10 years now.
Marketing. His mobile games look ca. 10 years old to me. Running a company doesn't necessarily mean creating new stuff.



Charles?
Scroll to the older posts in this thread.
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November 20th, 2012, 22:19
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Gorath already cited that interview earlier. It's a good thing he dropped that belligerent, indignant tone for his Codex interview and hopefully for future interviews. Saying his influence on Planescape: Torment is bigger (or as he puts it, more "wide-reaching") than MCA's is nothing short of delusional. Chris wrote the very original pitch document. He wrote half the dialog. Be real.
Only the people who were there can know the truth. I don't know it, you don't know it either.

"belligerent, indignant tone"? I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't see any aggression in his original German answers. He descibed the situation from his point of view, he explained what his job was and why he was unhappy about it. Of course it's subjective, but what else do you expect? It's his side of the story. He doesn't even blame anyone.
I remember that when I read the interview for the first time I was very surprised how calm his answers were. And that he didn't avoid the question, of course.
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November 20th, 2012, 22:23
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
I'm not really staring myself blind on credits, they can be misleading. No doubt he did some work on Fallout 2 at crunch, that's how it usually works in companies that big, you divert some guys to help out for the final weeks. Doesn't really earn them a part in the credits, though, nor is it really a particularly noteworthy contribution.
Correct. F2 was in crunch mode when he arrived, so a couple of guys including him had to help out. Normal.
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November 20th, 2012, 22:27
This is the only game I'd give my money to, personally. (Apart from Broken Sword.)

But I still believe that he made a *huge* mistake : By using Kickstarter only.

Because everyone knows how much uncommon credit cards are in Germany. If he had used something that is far more common in Germany than Paypal & Credit Cards, then he would have got much, much, much more money, because everybody in the German TDE scene knows him. They all were very excited upon hearing these news. And I bet some might be disappointed by now that they can't give him money, because they don't use neither Paypal nor Credit Cards.
I didn't see many credit cards on the RPC.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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November 20th, 2012, 22:34
@Alrik: Well you can get a paypal account with ELV (Direct Debit). So everyone should be able to badge if the put in some minutes of their time.

Everything else would have been really complicated and expensive I guess, like making contracts for this with special billing companies.
But as I mentioned before I am wondering how much money they already received via paypal - and I doubt it was a good idea to offer this in the beginning while it is unclear whether the goal will be reached anyways.
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November 20th, 2012, 23:44
That would have meant April at the earliest, it appears they did not want to wait that long to get fully go on the project.

Originally Posted by Steinawarjar View Post
I have a bad feeling about this. Really wish they could have prepared a little bit more and waited till after Christmas, when people have saved up some money again.

To sum it up, I feel our space program ended up like this. "It's one small step for man. One giant leap for man kind. Oops I fell on my butt after that leap and can't get up anymore."
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November 21st, 2012, 00:08
Originally Posted by buckaroobonzai View Post
That would have meant April at the earliest, it appears they did not want to wait that long to get fully go on the project.
Hmm, I was thinking more like february or something. April I guess would be pushing their patience.
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November 21st, 2012, 00:10
What he refers to is that reportedly research showed that Kickstarters in certain months are less successful than in others. April would have been the next "good" window.
Maybe somebody else will post the details.
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November 21st, 2012, 00:12
Okay, now I follow! Well I certainly hope they can pull it off!
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November 21st, 2012, 00:21
We have dragons!! 1 million please…… Did I mention we have dragons.

I'll wait for more info.

A sketch and a video I stopped watching halfway through isn't very compelling.
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