|
Your continuous donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Venetica - Steam Greenlight

Default Venetica - Steam Greenlight

November 29th, 2012, 09:48
It's just a pointless grinder, so why bother?
DArtagnan is online now

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#41

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 14,211

Default 

November 29th, 2012, 10:20
Who told you that?
It's not.

The only thing you'll probably put as a huge minus is it's not working on iPhone/iPad.
joxer is online now

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
RPGWatch Donor

#42

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,027

Default 

November 29th, 2012, 14:54
Pointless grinder? Haha, certainly not.
Low budget, sure. Nice art direction … but they've pushed their open source engine beyond its limits.
Gorath is offline

Gorath

Gorath's Avatar
Prime Evil
RPGWatch Team

#43

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,813

Default 

November 29th, 2012, 14:55
Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
Pointless grinder? Haha, certainly not.
Low budget, sure. Nice art direction but they've pushed their open source engine beyond its limits.
It was an internal joke
DArtagnan is online now

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#44

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 14,211

Default 

November 29th, 2012, 15:10
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post


That said, I play "myself" in those roles - as in how I would act under the same cirumstances and given the same persona. So, for an RPG - I play the assassin as I would behave as an assassin - not as an "evil" character. I can't do "evil" in games - because it conflicts too much with my own set of values.
I tried to be evil once, had to reload.

I'm always playing my self, or rather a version of me in another setting. Trying to act as realistic as possible under those circumstances.

Immersion is all there is for me. It is far far more important than any stats or what so ever. I want to be in another world.

If my avatar have gargantuan boobs and long flaxen hair, its not really me.
(though I might like to look at it…)

C
Crilloan is offline

Crilloan

SasqWatch

#45

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: WGS84 Latitud:59.85 Longitud:17.65
Posts: 355

Default 

November 29th, 2012, 15:15
The numbers are clear:
- 50% of gamers are female.
- In 2006, 12% of game industry employees (design & development) were female … but in 2011 it was down to 6%.

If you look at the general engineering and specifically computer science and engineering workforce - you have ~30% females. Now as one of my two roles is as a Statistician I know too well that correlation doesn't mean causality … but there is plenty of other correlating evidence.

THAT is why gaming gets singled out - because it is an anomoly … and the 'frat house' mentality at so many game developer shops is a big part. Articles about huge meetings and outings held at strip clubs, or on boats with strippers, are endemic to the gaming world.

It is identical to the situations in the 'old boys network' where at corporations or law firms you would have a near requirement to belong to a certain golf club and most of the big deals were done on the links. Most of those clubs didn't admit women or blacks … and yet when confronted with this the all-white-male law firms would claim they weren't sexist or racist.

Um, yeah you are.

— Mike
txa1265 is online now

txa1265

txa1265's Avatar
SasqWatch

#46

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corning, NY USA
Posts: 11,342

Default 

November 29th, 2012, 15:20
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
The numbers are clear:
- 50% of gamers are female.
- In 2006, 12% of game industry employees (design & development) were female … but in 2011 it was down to 6%.
Yeah, what was it like in the 1970s and 1980s? Also, I'm talking about females overall - not just developers.

If you look at the general engineering and specifically computer science and engineering workforce - you have ~30% females. Now as one of my two roles is as a Statistician I know too well that correlation doesn't mean causality … but there is plenty of other correlating evidence.
But you're arguing that it's because of sexism. No one is saying that the gaming industry isn't male-dominated. We're talking WHY that is so.

THAT is why gaming gets singled out - because it is an anomoly … and the 'frat house' mentality at so many game developer shops is a big part. Articles about huge meetings and outings held at strip clubs, or on boats with strippers, are endemic to the gaming world.
What has all that got to do with sexism, though? If they're all males - then what's the problem with going to strip-clubs? That's normal male behavior when males are together, I'd say.

So, if there's any sexism - it's not because of gaming.
DArtagnan is online now

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#47

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 14,211

Default 

November 29th, 2012, 15:40
Scarlet is a very likeable character and not at all "girly" , it is definitely a good game to play if you can tolerate loading times .
Tragos is offline

Tragos

Tragos's Avatar
Otinanist

#48

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Athens (the original one)
Posts: 1,435

Default 

November 29th, 2012, 15:46
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
What has all that got to do with sexism, though? If they're all males - then what's the problem with going to strip-clubs? That's normal male behavior when males are together, I'd say.
Wait - are you insinuating that strip clubs aren't an inherently sexist establishment? I mean, their sole function is as a place pushing sexual objectification of women for the gratification and titillation of men.

That is a break point for me - if you don't see that, I can't continue because you are not a serious minded person when it comes to gender and I have given you way too much credit.

But assuming you do realize that strip clubs are inherently sexist - and a 'for men' place … then it should be a very simple step to understand how having a meeting there is an inherently hostile work environment for women. I can't even believe I would have to explain that.

It is very simple - there are plenty of male-dominated industries, particularly related to science and engineering. I work in one. The majority of these are normal workplaces, where women exist as managers and executives in a normal ratio to the overall population just as do people who would check something else other than 'white male' on the demographics survey.

But for the gaming industry it is different - computer designers and engineers and programmers are represented less, and have been speaking up in HUGE volumes about how the rampant sexism, objectification, groping, and hostile workplaces have made it impossible to function. In this industry, women are poorly represented as managers and executives, and seldom chosen as project leads - even based on the proportion of female employment.

As I said, correlation doesn't mean causation, but when you have multiple correlating factors … the probability of causation and linkage becomes very high.

The outcome of the fact that sexism is a major limiting factor for females working in the gaming industry, is that you have 'frat house' males deciding 'what women want'. COnsidering even an enlightened person such as you cannot empathize with a women enough to play as one in an action-RPG … you can imagine how that goes.

Boobs and bikini armor. Or pink ponies and flowers.

In other words, stereotypes that limit engagement. Then when they survey players and find that many women don't enjoy the endless stream of same-old white male kills everything in a stream of f-bombs gritty realism Call-of-Halo-Gears-Creed crapfest … they decide that it is because of the women, not the incredibly limited scope of the design.

So we get more of the same. And PLEASE don't bring up the ONE successful female protagonist (Tomb Raider), as it is the exception that proves the rule.

— Mike
txa1265 is online now

txa1265

txa1265's Avatar
SasqWatch

#49

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corning, NY USA
Posts: 11,342

Default 

November 29th, 2012, 17:22
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
What has all that got to do with sexism, though? If they're all males - then what's the problem with going to strip-clubs? That's normal male behavior when males are together, I'd say.

So, if there's any sexism - it's not because of gaming.
So you imply that all men are inherently sexist ones ?

And, by the way, what do you think of "strip clubs" FOR women, then ? (I don't think that this exists, but if …)


Besides, today I read in the newspaper that a female IT professor ( ! ) had been given the largest EU scientific research prize.

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
Alrik Fassbauer is offline

Alrik Fassbauer

Alrik Fassbauer's Avatar
TL;DR

#50

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 15,936

Default 

November 29th, 2012, 17:40
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
So you imply that all men are inherently sexist ones ?

And, by the way, what do you think of "strip clubs" FOR women, then ? (I don't think that this exists, but if )


Besides, today I read in the newspaper that a female IT professor ( ! ) had been given the largest EU scientific research prize.
Definitely not - just as racism isn't a white-only club, nor is sexism male-only.

But the reality of our Western world is that the power structure has 9/10 of the power and influence held by white males. Therefore the impact of so-called 'reverse racism' or 'reverse sexism' is small and isolated.

— Mike
txa1265 is online now

txa1265

txa1265's Avatar
SasqWatch

#51

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corning, NY USA
Posts: 11,342

Default 

November 29th, 2012, 18:23
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Wait - are you insinuating that strip clubs aren't an inherently sexist establishment? I mean, their sole function is as a place pushing sexual objectification of women for the gratification and titillation of men.
You should probably brace yourself for an alternate viewpoint. Personally, I don't see ANYTHING discriminating or denigrating about the sexual objectification of women.

So, no, I don't think there's anything inherently sexist about strip clubs. That doesn't mean that men who go visit them can't be sexist or that discrimination can't go on in places like that.

To me, discrimination is about making people less than they are - or trying to make yourself superior. In my world, lusting after each other is a biological inevitability - and I don't exclude equality when I look at women as sexually desirable.

That is a break point for me - if you don't see that, I can't continue because you are not a serious minded person when it comes to gender and I have given you way too much credit.
You should do what you think is right, and if you can't have a debate with me because I don't agree with you - then you should stop. I wouldn't want to waste my time with someone who can't keep an open mind.

But assuming you do realize that strip clubs are inherently sexist - and a 'for men' place then it should be a very simple step to understand how having a meeting there is an inherently hostile work environment for women. I can't even believe I would have to explain that.
I realise that you think that's the case - and you think that what you think is the objective truth. That's not what I would consider particularly useful when learning new things or trying to understand other people - but that's on you, isn't it.

It is very simple - there are plenty of male-dominated industries, particularly related to science and engineering. I work in one. The majority of these are normal workplaces, where women exist as managers and executives in a normal ratio to the overall population just as do people who would check something else other than 'white male' on the demographics survey.
I work in one too, actually. What I find is that people are the same whereever you go. But when one gender represents the majority - they get to represent the norm in that place of work. Quite simple for me, but I understand we may differ on that.

But for the gaming industry it is different - computer designers and engineers and programmers are represented less, and have been speaking up in HUGE volumes about how the rampant sexism, objectification, groping, and hostile workplaces have made it impossible to function. In this industry, women are poorly represented as managers and executives, and seldom chosen as project leads - even based on the proportion of female employment.
You claim that the gaming industry is different, I understand that. But you have nothing to prove it with. Sexism will be found in every place where one gender dominates. I find it surprising that you don't understand something so simple.

Have you ever tried working or going to school in a nearly all-female place? Let's just say gamers don't set themselves apart in terms of being sexist in that way.

The outcome of the fact that sexism is a major limiting factor for females working in the gaming industry, is that you have 'frat house' males deciding 'what women want'. COnsidering even an enlightened person such as you cannot empathize with a women enough to play as one in an action-RPG you can imagine how that goes.
I think you're being ridiculous if you're claiming that most developers are "frat house" males. That's ignorant to the point of stupidity. There's a huge difference between not being able to empathise with the opposite sex, and discriminating against them.

Boobs and bikini armor. Or pink ponies and flowers.
Interestingly enough - a lot of women don't seem to mind so much when they're playing fantasy games. Have you taken a look at the average male representation in computer gaming? They'd don't look much like your or me, or did you miss that?

In other words, stereotypes that limit engagement. Then when they survey players and find that many women don't enjoy the endless stream of same-old white male kills everything in a stream of f-bombs gritty realism Call-of-Halo-Gears-Creed crapfest they decide that it is because of the women, not the incredibly limited scope of the design.
So, females don't much like what males create for a male audience? That's a shock. But I'm afraid I don't see anything sexist about it. Again, would you enjoy a game made by women about horse riding?

So we get more of the same. And PLEASE don't bring up the ONE successful female protagonist (Tomb Raider), as it is the exception that proves the rule.
We get more of the same because most gamers are not particularly demanding compared to the core segment. That's us. They're targeting the largest segment when they're trying to sell games. I hate Call of Duty as much as the average female does - but they don't give a shit about me - because I don't represent the majority.

These things are not as clear cut sexist as you're trying to make them.
DArtagnan is online now

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#52

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 14,211

Default 

November 30th, 2012, 01:09
When and where was it determined that 50% of gamers are female?
JDR13 is online now

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch

#53

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 17,701

Default 

November 30th, 2012, 02:06
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
When and where was it determined that 50% of gamers are female?
Egad … have you people never heard of 'teh googlz'?

According to research published by the Entertainment Software Association, nearly half of all gamers, or 47%, are female and the average age of gamers in 2012 was 30 years old.
http://news.yahoo.com/gaming-isn-t-b…184011116.html

— Mike
txa1265 is online now

txa1265

txa1265's Avatar
SasqWatch

#54

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corning, NY USA
Posts: 11,342

Default 

November 30th, 2012, 05:15
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/gaming-isn-t-b…184011116.html
Yeah.. that's pretty much the type of article I was expecting. It gives percentages, but it doesn't say how it got them, nor does it clarify what they count as "gaming".

I don't consider someone who occasionally plays solitaire on their phone, or Farmville on Facebook, to be a gamer.
JDR13 is online now

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch

#55

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 17,701

Default 

November 30th, 2012, 07:14
I don't consider someone who occasionally plays solitaire on their phone, or Farmville on Facebook, to be a gamer.
Definition gamer:
A gamer is someone who play games.

Definition game:
A game is structured playing, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool. Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction. Games generally involve mental or physical stimulation, and often both.

So everyone who plays card games, PC-games, board games, phone-games … is a gamer.

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - HL Mencken
HiddenX is online now

HiddenX

HiddenX's Avatar
The Elder Spy
RPGWatch Donor

#56

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NRW/Germany
Posts: 3,767

Default 

November 30th, 2012, 07:55
All I have to say is teach me your enlightened ways oh great one DArtagnan. Share your wisdom with the masses and hopefully this crusade agaisnt sexism in the game industry can perish.

Seriously every day I read an article or see a news report that makes me feel here we go again.

I cant immerse myself in any game if the main charter is female either. That's not sexist that's just a gaming preference. I don't care about staring at a female toons ass as I play either or cosmetic options as armor.

"Frankly Sir /Madam I don't give a damn about your opinion."- Couchpotato
Last edited by Couchpotato; November 30th, 2012 at 08:30.
Couchpotato is offline

Couchpotato

Couchpotato's Avatar
LazyGamer
RPGWatch Team

#57

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Potato Land
Posts: 9,108

Default 

November 30th, 2012, 08:54
I think this is worthwile read for this discussion:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1…n_2140509.html

blackcanopus:
Steam is out of question. It's not convenient, it's not easy to use, it's not simple and fast. It's terrible.
"Where STEAM fails, the PHOENIX rises"
Sir_Brennus is offline

Sir_Brennus

Sir_Brennus's Avatar
Planeswalker

#58

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 357

Default 

December 1st, 2012, 15:41
Originally Posted by Sir_Brennus View Post
I think this is worthwile read for this discussion:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1…n_2140509.html
This story is about kids, not about adults. Seems like many adult players here can't support play a female character, I can hardly understand that but it's like a fact.

For games with RPG elements, JRPG are almost exclusively with forced male hero, there's some exceptions but not much.

For non JRPG I tried make a list and it's not that big but still a few noticeable that are "forbidden" to female players. I noticed Fallout 1, Diablo 2 (only some classes are male), The Witcher 1&2, Gothic 1&2&3, Risen 1&2(?), Lands of Lore 1, Torchlight 1 (only some classes are male), Game of Thrones RPG, Of Orcs and Men.

Well I honestly don't care much, but the point is that a well written RPG with troubled characters and stories like the Witcher will never ever be released with a woman hero. Too bad I would be curious to play that, but that would be clearly a totally wrong idea in term of sells.

EDIT: Instead to get RPG compatible with both male and female hero, we get most often RPG with neutral gender approach beside few totally boring romance stuff.
Ihaterpg is offline

Ihaterpg

Banned

#59

Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 480

Default 

December 3rd, 2012, 02:19
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I don't consider someone who occasionally plays solitaire on their phone, or Farmville on Facebook, to be a gamer.
But what about someone who represents ~100% buy (compared to pirate), plays games in 'real' genres that take 4-6 hours to complete - and finish a couple a week, engage socially and competitively while gaming, and so on?

Yeah, those are women. It has been shown that spenders are women, pirates are male. Women play more than the games you would like to stereotype them as playing. It is time to stop looking down on them as inferior.

— Mike
txa1265 is online now

txa1265

txa1265's Avatar
SasqWatch

#60

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corning, NY USA
Posts: 11,342
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Venetica - Steam Greenlight
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:37.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch