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Default Another shooting - 20 children killed

December 15th, 2012, 22:30
Originally Posted by CrazyIrish View Post
Well we don't all have the benefit of your significant experience with making the world a better place, so you'll just have to be patient with us.
You certainly don't seem to have my experience with human nature. Maybe you simply haven't been paying attention.

And, for the record, I doubt my analysis of your post history would be disputed by many here.
That doesn't change how realistic or insightful that position would be. Then again, the weight of the emotional response to what I write is likely to be a more significant factor in the overall perception of my posting history than the actual content of my posts.

Incidentally, such a misperception based on emotional bias is exactly the kind of stupidity at the root of not understanding the problem with widespread and easy access to extremely convenient and deadly weapons.

Basically, think more and dismiss your feelings to a greater extent if you want to get at truth, as far as we can perceive it.
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December 16th, 2012, 05:25
Let's cut the personal crap, especially in a thread about such a tragedy. Thanks!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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December 16th, 2012, 07:24
Sad days. Since I'm not a parent, I don't think I can even imagine the horror those folks are going through.

Sometimes, the good guys have the gun:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c…baebc1539.html
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December 16th, 2012, 13:56
Now this is becoming even worse, according to Huffington Post there was another shooting in Alabama, this time a lunatic tried to kill ppl in a hospital:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1…n_2307505.html

What the hell is happening in USA? I really don't see another solution except gun possession law suspension.
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December 16th, 2012, 18:45
It's a well known phenomenon that widely publicised crime often triggers a series of copycat events. Media were asked many times over not to concentrate on perpetrators but on victims and their families.

Originally Posted by CrazyIrish View Post
And so it does. But on an individual level if you are confronted by overwhelming violence, then you are capable only of fleeing or hiding behind others who are better suited to action. If you are ok with that, then that is your business. What is the saying? That a society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.
Fort Hood was full of armed warriors and Nancy Lanza had plenty of weapons at her home. And we know how this worked out for them don't we?
Last edited by zahratustra; December 16th, 2012 at 19:00.
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December 16th, 2012, 19:37
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
Now this is becoming even worse, according to Huffington Post there was another shooting in Alabama, this time a lunatic tried to kill ppl in a hospital:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1…n_2307505.html

What the hell is happening in USA? I really don't see another solution except gun possession law suspension.
As happens too often the story was premature. He was chased by police to the hospital. He didn't just target the hospital and start shooting people.
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December 16th, 2012, 19:50
Still - he had a gun and attacked helpless ppl. In fact in all cases I've seen so far the attacker picks a place where he doesn't expect any resistance at all - that includes out-of-USA Brievik case. I mean… They didn't target airports, banks or police stations.

I really don't think that the solution is to have armed security in all public buildings just because the law allows just anyone to get a gun. Also I don't believe that the solution is a witchhunt on autism/asperger syndrome (hell I think I have some sort of it) or whatnot.
If there is no way that the gun possession law can be suspended, hell make a law on bullets then! Sell the gun, but allow having only a few bullets per person who can't buy another few unless presenting emptied cases. It won't stop the murderer, but at least there won't be so many victims.
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December 16th, 2012, 20:52
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Gun or not I am not prepared to keep a firearm and use it on a human being.
Youre a criminal's dream come true, the perfect victim. I wonder if youd feel the same laying there, beaten and tied up, while your life (and wife) is violated by a predator.

If you were still alive, that is.

I am genuinely curious as to whether you'd have a change of heart or not. People change, right?
Last edited by xSamhainx; December 16th, 2012 at 21:25.
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December 16th, 2012, 21:33
Atom bombs don't kill people, people do. And corporations are people too. There's no good excuse for people to have guns. It's a fetish for a phallic symbol of power, and for the scared and paranoid.
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December 16th, 2012, 22:04
You have to remember that decades ago, everyone had guns too, and such mass rage killings were almost unheard of. If a teen would have brought a gun to school, it wouldn't even have provoked an hysteria.

I chalk it up to the erosion of the family unit and stability, the result of this being too many people growing up socially alienated and psychologically broken.

I know that if a criminal erupts into my home and threatens my wife and my future son, I want to be able to protect them. Now not only am I not allowed to have a weapon to defend myself against the intruder in Canada, but I have to walk on eggshells in the middle of such an explosive situation to make sure I do not harm the criminal who could torture or kill me or the members of my family at any point, so that he doesn't sue me later. It is beyond messed up.

As many have iterated, it is the people who kill. The people are growing less psychologically healthy and broken due to social choices having had negative impact on the family unit, the backbone of society, and due to values that have progressively become perverse and become a negative, amoral echo chamber glorifying all the wrong things. There is no need to look further.

Also, guns being technically illegal in Canada doesn't stop gangs and petty criminals in the greater Toronto area and in Montreal from having them, and using them to fight one another and terrorizing innocent people. It only means that the population at large is rendered impotent.
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December 16th, 2012, 22:09
Everyone here that want's to outlaw gun's, and I'm not saying I necessarily disagree.

how do you think you can enforce that?

Does making guns illegal stop this from happen?

All that changes is he has to obtain the guns illegally. Drugs are illegal yet if you have cash and a spare half hour anyone can go get some.

It's easy to say just get rid of access to guns but no one that's saying that seems to have any idea how that would be possible.

Guns have been around since the beginning of america but this problem has never been so wide spread. I think this has much more to do with societal changes than access to guns. Guns are the tools not the motive.

We live in a society that's rampant with bullying and cyber bullying, kids that have real mental issues are just giving pills rather than being treated, children are beating each other up and posting it on youtube for christ sake. Their are more single parents now than ever and in dual parent families more often than not both parents have to work so kids come home with no supervision. There are so many problems that transcend just limiting access to guns as a solution.

Sure, limiting access to guns would probably be a good thing but far from a solution and please someone tell me a feasible plan to make the idea even work. As I wrote earlier people are not going to line up and willing surrender their guns no matter how stupid some of you think gun ownership is.
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December 16th, 2012, 22:13
How about hunting wild life, like elk, hare, duck etc for food?

I don't personally hunt, but I know many people who do and they would be somewhat astounded if you classified them as gun fetishists.
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December 16th, 2012, 22:33
I'd really like to see more states move towards requiring or at least strongly encouraging the adoption of sensor-locked guns (guns that, for example, will not disengage the safety unless the user is wearing a corresponding ring.) That would only address a fraction of spree killings and mass murders of course, but it would have a more distinct impact on incidents where children hurt themselves or others with a parents' gun. It would mean a parent would be less likely to come home to find a child dead because they got into their gun safe - as well as mean a gun owner could keep a weapon more readily available for self defense within their home without fear of it being misused by someone else.
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December 17th, 2012, 00:25
maybe it has to do with the psychotropics they(mass murders) were taking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhO0P…ature=youtu.be

only a good guy/girl with guns can stop a badie with guns…otherwise wait 15mins for police to show up for body count. learn the real lesson from this tragedy.
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December 17th, 2012, 04:57
'I Am Adam Lanza's Mother'
"Friday’s horrific national tragedy — the murder of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut — has ignited a new discussion on violence in America. In kitchens and coffee shops across the country, we tearfully debate the many faces of violence in America: gun culture, media violence, lack of mental health services, overt and covert wars abroad, religion, politics and the way we raise our children. Liza Long, a writer based in Boise, says it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1…n_2311009.html
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December 17th, 2012, 05:13
Honestly, this is exactly what I'm the most concerned about with this. All of this Minority Report kind of stuff.

Being an introvert is increasingly considered a suspicious thing, and if such paranoia goes ahead, public servants will be trained to screen them or something equally awry.

I don't think it's a good idea to try to categorize anyone who is withdrawn, and to be suspicious that anyone who strays slightly from the norm could become hostile at any moment. It is an exercise in futility, and ultimately only contributes to an increasingly poisonous climate.

I have not seen so far any signs that the shooter suffered from mental issues. And I think people always try to lend such a rationale to such terrible acts, when there often isn't one. Take Anders Breivik for example, he was evil, he was not mentally deranged. The court was able to recognize the difference between the two.

One doesn't need to have any mental illness when the problem is that one just has become terribly alienated and isolated. This isn't a domain for psychology or psychiatry; it's a matter of a warm, inclusive and compassionate society. One that is becoming increasingly selfish and ruthless with the disintegration of the family unit and marriage.
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December 17th, 2012, 09:59
Originally Posted by xSamhainx View Post
Youre a criminal's dream come true, the perfect victim. I wonder if youd feel the same laying there, beaten and tied up, while your life (and wife) is violated by a predator.

If you were still alive, that is.

I am genuinely curious as to whether you'd have a change of heart or not. People change, right?
Criminals are very rarely armed in Norway/Sweden. So in general, there isn't any need to have guns for personal use.

pibbur who also never would use a gun at anyone, and who doesn't feel particularly threatened by that.

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December 17th, 2012, 10:22
It's not about wanting to defend yourself or not. It's about wanting to prevent the deaths of innocent people. You have to ask yourself if you're willing to do without a weapon like a gun - so that other people won't have easy access to them either. If you're helping to save lives, is that worth taking a risk of being without a gun, if you're someday confronted by someone where a gun could save you?

The thing is, though, that if guns are taken out of the culture - and the enforcement of the law is taken seriously - the chance of facing armed criminals is much much smaller. This is why there are so few cases of shootings around here. It's not just about access to guns, but about the cultural approach to such weapons.

If I had a gun and I faced someone intent on doing harm to me or my loved ones (or anyone innocent, really), I'd shoot them down without a second thought. If I was in such a situation and I didn't have a gun - I'd be very sorry I didn't have one. But that's the sacrifice you have to make for the greater good. You can't let your emotional weakness dominate - because that's exactly why so many people are being killed.

There's no reason to pretend you wouldn't kill in self-defense or the defense of a loved one. Most people would do that, and I don't care what they say. This isn't Hollywood and when the shit is going down - idealism goes by the wayside. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to save lives.

We need to get rid of guns as far as that is possible. The weapon is too convenient and easy to kill with. You can't commit mass-murder with a kitchen knife without putting yourself in extreme physical danger. But guns are just too dangerous, and they need to go. End of story.
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December 17th, 2012, 11:55
Originally Posted by xSamhainx View Post
Youre a criminal's dream come true, the perfect victim. I wonder if youd feel the same laying there, beaten and tied up, while your life (and wife) is violated by a predator.

If you were still alive, that is.

I am genuinely curious as to whether you'd have a change of heart or not. People change, right?
You are talking to a social psychologist, what do you expect?

Trying to imagine a distressful, dangerous and extreme situation when you are rested, calm and safe is one of the most common forms of irrationality out there and the most common mistake "rational" people make. It's irrational because it disregards hundreds of important factors that will impact their behavior and if they are adults they have already experienced hundreds of times they acted completely wrong then replayed their mistakes in their head afterwards and they cannot explain or understand why they did so wrong.

I am honest to myself since I have the facts; My behavior in a such situation is not a choice. You do not know how you will act either. How can I tell? Because there's tons of research on the subject and people in general behave very differently from what they imagine they would do once they are in that situation. Some freeze even if they imagined them to act as an action-hero. Some go the complete other direction.

You may claim you do, in order to feel more safe now, but that's just to quell your cognitive dissonance.

The realization that ones rational brain is disabled when the peripheral brain takes over is necessary to value the control we do have and that control is to think ahead and avoid that situation in the first place. Which is why I support projects to minimize crime before they happen. Some things will slip through my fingers sure, but better that than relying on me being an action hero when I accept am not.

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December 17th, 2012, 12:03
Originally Posted by Humanity has risen! View Post
You have to remember that decades ago, everyone had guns too, and such mass rage killings were almost unheard of.
Myth. Violence have steadily gone down. The only difference is that we now have worldwide media so one case in the world is debated. That didn't happen 30 years ago.

Originally Posted by Humanity has risen! View Post
I chalk it up to the erosion of the family unit and stability
Western Europe demolish your argument and whole line of reasoning. Please rethink your reasoning from scratch.

Originally Posted by Humanity has risen! View Post
I know that if a criminal erupts into my home and threatens my wife and my future son, I want to be able to protect them. Now not only am I not allowed to have a weapon to defend myself against the intruder in Canada
Becoming obsessed of danger scenarios to the point in which you feel the need to arm yourself isn't a sign of good mental health.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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