|
Your continuous donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Dark Souls II - What they can do to make it better @ Kotaku

Default Dark Souls II - What they can do to make it better @ Kotaku

December 30th, 2012, 20:16
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post

Well, I'm personally not a fan of difficulty levels - because it takes the design and balance out of the hands of the developers and into the hands of the players - to an extent. This assumes that the player can make a fully qualified choice without having actually played the game before - and that's largely impossible. So, you never end up with a pure experience, and you'll inevitably start to doubt whether it's too hard or too easy. I hate that - and I just want the game as it was envisioned, and I don't want any doubts that I'm not experiencing the game to its full potential.

So, I'm a great fan of how Dark Souls is handling it - and I think it's a brave design choice - because it WILL reduce the potential audience.

Then again, I think it's fantastic when designers go for the art, rather than the commerce. It's a risk - but I do think it can pay off big time. Sometimes, it can even turn casual/mainstream gamers into enthusiast gamers - because they might like the game enough to put forth the extra effort.

In my opinion, the developers of Dark Souls should focus on the kind of experience they want the players to have - and they should not be too concerned by people who're not able to enjoy it. I don't think all games should be for everyone - and I actually think games are much better when being developed as something the designers would play, rather than what they think the players might want.
Sure the designer should do what they want. But a company also needs to make money, more money more they can invest in more games, or games with bigger budgets. I think easy mode would make Dark Soul a little more popular, so more sales, more money, bigger budget for sequel, etc. So I think its a good thing for all.

And you say I can't make a choice without having played the game, have you consider that many people including me play the game then make the choice? I play TES/Fallout games vanilla first, on normal so I know what I want to change. If I do play Dark Soul's I will surely try the normal difficulty first, maybe I will like it. Knowing me I don't think I will and I don't wish to go to the trouble of installing a game that I don't think there is a good chance I will want to play it. The mods for Dark Soul that make it easier make it so I might just give the game a chance.

Also I don't care much when is come to artistic vision, I know what I like. I almost always mod every game I play, I am picky. I wish I where not as it would make it easier to just enjoy the game for what it is, but I can't. This is perhaps why I am a part time gamer, just hard to find enough games to keep me playing daily that I enjoy.

I am free because I choose to be so-me
Kefka is offline

Kefka

Kefka's Avatar
Watcher

#161

Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 99

Default 

December 30th, 2012, 20:30
Originally Posted by Kefka View Post
Sure the designer should do what they want. But a company also needs to make money, more money more they can invest in more games, or games with bigger budgets. I think easy mode would make Dark Soul a little more popular, so more sales, more money, bigger budget for sequel, etc. So I think its a good thing for all.
It's not a good thing if it impacts the design and approach to overall difficulty - for people who enjoy the way it's designed right now. You can't just adjust sliders in a carefully balanced game - you need to design the entire game around multiple difficulty levels. This means that the design is in danger of changing at the core - and it's very challenging to make a pure experience with multiple difficulty levels. You're almost guarenteed to compromise parts of the design - so a challenge or an encounter will work in all difficulty modes. Some parts are not challenging based on hitpoints or damage - like traps or timed puzzles. Do you make them lethal or do you make the timing required more forgiving? That means you have to make everything work together with multiple animation speeds and all kinds of things that most people don't think about. If setting off a trap isn't lethal - then why would you ever fear it, really? You know? It's not so simple as it seems.

And you say I can't make a choice without having played the game, have you consider that many people including me play the game then make the choice? I play TES/Fallout games vanilla first, on normal so I know what I want to change. If I do play Dark Soul's I will surely try the normal difficulty first, maybe I will like it. Knowing me I don't think I will and I don't wish to go to the trouble of installing a game that I don't think there is a good chance I will want to play it. The mods for Dark Soul that make it easier make it so I might just give the game a chance.
I'm not saying you can't make a choice - I said you can't make a fully qualified choice.

I think it's very, very bad that a game motivates players to play it through once so they know what difficulty is right for them. You may not realise this, but the first playthrough of any strong experience tends to be the most powerful - by far. So, if you're not getting a properly balanced or "pure" experience the first time, you will taint the full experience forever.

However, that's my opinion - and I know a lot of people don't invest as much into thinking about these things, because they don't really care.

Also I don't care much when is come to artistic vision, I know what I like. I almost always mod every game I play, I am picky. I wish I where not as it would make it easier to just enjoy the game for what it is, but I can't. This is perhaps why I am a part time gamer, just hard to find enough games to keep me playing daily that I enjoy.
No, I understand that you don't really care - and you just want them to do what's best for you.

I feel the same way, and I want them to follow their vision and ignore players who're not fans of that vision. That's what I wish all artists would do.

As an artist/designer - the only thing you can really know with certainty is what YOU like to play and what YOU want from a game - and once you start guessing and trying to please everyone, you move away from the vision and you end up with something different from what you set out to create. This is why 90% of all games released are not all that good.

As for the commercial consequences, that's something they're going to have to deal with themselves. It's almost always a sacrifice to go for the art, and very few developers are willing or even able to make it. I'm not telling them what they should do - I'm just saying what I think would make for the best and most interesting experience.
DArtagnan is offline

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#162

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 14,443

Default 

December 30th, 2012, 21:16
Originally Posted by Kefka View Post
Sure fully voiced dialog, also 3d graphics, I think those are major steps forward in gaming, similar to films have sound or being in color.
They're similar in that it's an evolution yes, but cinematic sound and color television were inventions of a much, much greater magnitude. That's all I meant. They're not comparable as far as the impact they had.
JDR13 is offline

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch

#163

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 17,819

Default 

December 31st, 2012, 02:39
@DArtagnan,

Most difficulty modes are a total afterthought, there just stat adjustments so I disagree that is would have any effect on the game. Easy mode, 50% more dmg done, or 50% less dmg taken, whatever very simple. Of course this is all hypothetical because if they did have easy mode(and hard mode as well) you could argue that we might never know if they had an effect or not on the design process.

As for making games just for my taste, actually I don't want them to do what is best for me but best for everyone, my taste can be quite odd, if TES games where made just how I wanted them they might not make nearly as much money and TES cost a lot to make they need that money. So what I want them and all game makers to do is make modding more accessible then everyone wins. For example Dark Soul's for me I can play modded yay! And TES games I can mold into basically my perfect rpg(or as close as is probable going to happen).

@JDR13, there comparable as far as impact whiten that industry.

I am free because I choose to be so-me
Kefka is offline

Kefka

Kefka's Avatar
Watcher

#164

Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 99

Default 

December 31st, 2012, 10:09
Originally Posted by Kefka View Post
@DArtagnan,

Most difficulty modes are a total afterthought, there just stat adjustments so I disagree that is would have any effect on the game. Easy mode, 50% more dmg done, or 50% less dmg taken, whatever very simple. Of course this is all hypothetical because if they did have easy mode(and hard mode as well) you could argue that we might never know if they had an effect or not on the design process.
I don't really feel like going in endless circles here.

But, I'll try again.

You can't just expect Dark Souls to work as an experience with a 50% reduction in terms of damage done or taken. A lot of the challenge in the game is not about damage, but about timing and outright death. If you don't die when you make a mistake - when that's what's supposed to happen - you risk never being in any real danger. Everything is carefully tuned to make you die or put you in serious risk.

Easy mode could end up being a god mode and it wouldn't actually be a good thing for anyone.

I don't think the game is a good fit for an easy mode. If people don't want to die when they make a mistake, then it's simply not the game they should play.

However, if they REALLY want a sloppily implemented easy mode that won't affect the pure experience on normal mode - then I don't mind it. I just don't really believe that's what they want. Frankly, I think people want an easy mode because they don't respect or even want the kind of game Dark Souls really is. So, just stay away from it - would be my advice.

As for making games just for my taste, actually I don't want them to do what is best for me but best for everyone, my taste can be quite odd, if TES games where made just how I wanted them they might not make nearly as much money and TES cost a lot to make they need that money. So what I want them and all game makers to do is make modding more accessible then everyone wins. For example Dark Soul's for me I can play modded yay! And TES games I can mold into basically my perfect rpg(or as close as is probable going to happen).
No, that's not what you seem to actually want. I've tried explaining why making games for everyone would likely reduce the quality for a significant portion of the audience - myself included. I've also tried explaining that what people seem to want - will not always result in something they actually want, and this becomes more true as you try to target people with less experience in game design.

Modding is great - but it's not a trivial thing to develop for. I think it's something every developer should keep in mind, but I don't want it to compromise the development process or end up as the wrong priority for development.

Ideally, I'd rather want a pure experience than a watered down experience that is easy to mod. That's because I don't think mods can easily repair a broken vision.

But, anyway, this is becoming cyclical. We obviously don't agree about how easy it is to implement difficulty modes - and you don't agree that targeting everyone is a potentially big problem. That's fair enough - and we don't have to agree.
DArtagnan is offline

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#165

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 14,443

Default 

December 31st, 2012, 13:11
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I don't really feel like going in endless circles here.

But, I'll try again.

You can't just expect Dark Souls to work as an experience with a 50% reduction in terms of damage done or taken. A lot of the challenge in the game is not about damage, but about timing and outright death. If you don't die when you make a mistake - when that's what's supposed to happen - you risk never being in any real danger. Everything is carefully tuned to make you die or put you in serious risk.

Easy mode could end up being a god mode and it wouldn't actually be a good thing for anyone.

I don't think the game is a good fit for an easy mode. If people don't want to die when they make a mistake, then it's simply not the game they should play.

However, if they REALLY want a sloppily implemented easy mode that won't affect the pure experience on normal mode - then I don't mind it. I just don't really believe that's what they want. Frankly, I think people want an easy mode because they don't respect or even want the kind of game Dark Souls really is. So, just stay away from it - would be my advice.



No, that's not what you seem to actually want. I've tried explaining why making games for everyone would likely reduce the quality for a significant portion of the audience - myself included. I've also tried explaining that what people seem to want - will not always result in something they actually want, and this becomes more true as you try to target people with less experience in game design.

Modding is great - but it's not a trivial thing to develop for. I think it's something every developer should keep in mind, but I don't want it to compromise the development process or end up as the wrong priority for development.

Ideally, I'd rather want a pure experience than a watered down experience that is easy to mod. That's because I don't think mods can easily repair a broken vision.

But, anyway, this is becoming cyclical. We obviously don't agree about how easy it is to implement difficulty modes - and you don't agree that targeting everyone is a potentially big problem. That's fair enough - and we don't have to agree.
I think my key point here is your guessing that people don't want some tacked on easy mode, when in fact people are playing Dark Soul and enjoying it with what basically amounts to a tacked on easy mode(via cheat engine mod).

I agree that some people don't really seem to know what they want, for example many people that like TES, say Oblivion or Skyrim, say they hate fast travel, yet these same people use it anyway and then say they want an option to turn it off, they even download mods to do so. For me I find this confusing if you really like playing the game without fast travel, why are you fast traveling? I played Oblivion, Fallout 3/NV for 100 hours each before I started using fast travel, I did not need a off button because it was more fun for me to not use it and once it got to the point where the path had been worn out and it was not so fun to run every where, I started using it, easy as that.

I also agree that that dev should make there own game, the game they want, not the game I want, or other people want. But I do see there come a point where(esp after the first game in a series) where feedback from fans I think should be taken into consideration, where adding some common convinecce options would not water down the core game, when it comes to Dark Soul many fans don't want an easy mode, so I understand them not adding one. But I also think they could add an easy mode(or at least allow a console to be enable on pc) with very little difficulty(i.e dev time/cost) and it would only help the game not hurt.

But as you said we have both made our points. The biggest one for me is that people should not assume what other people will or won't like. There are people that enjoy Dark Soul's modded to be easier, it may seem odd to most Dark Sou's players but it is what it is. Just like the people that mod TES games in to some kind of abomination that I would hate to play(and would dramatically hurt the game sales wise if the vanilla game was like that) I don't assume they don't really know what they want(even though I do think that sometimes people really are confused about what makes a game fun for them).

Anyway I am glad you where able to maintain a civil tone, its so annoying when people can't discuss things in a reasonable manner.

I am free because I choose to be so-me
Kefka is offline

Kefka

Kefka's Avatar
Watcher

#166

Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 99

Default 

December 31st, 2012, 13:38
Originally Posted by Kefka View Post
I think my key point here is your guessing that people don't want some tacked on easy mode, when in fact people are playing Dark Soul and enjoying it with what basically amounts to a tacked on easy mode(via cheat engine mod).
Sure, if people really enjoy that sort of thing - and it's easy to implement without interfering with the vision, I have no problem with it. Indeed, I'm all for that.

I agree that some people don't really seem to know what they want, for example many people that like TES, say Oblivion or Skyrim, say they hate fast travel, yet these same people use it anyway and then say they want an option to turn it off, they even download mods to do so. For me I find this confusing if you really like playing the game without fast travel, why are you fast traveling? I played Oblivion, Fallout 3/NV for 100 hours each before I started using fast travel, I did not need a off button because it was more fun for me to not use it and once it got to the point where the path had been worn out and it was not so fun to run every where, I started using it, easy as that.
Oh, I find that very easy to understand.

It's like people eating too much when they know it's bad for them. It's taking the easy route for short-term enjoyment, even though you know it's going to hurt the long-term enjoyment.

People are not 100% rational in everything they do - and it's very common to do something that's actually not good for you, because it's easier or more convenient.

I don't like fast traveling as a feature - but I use it when I'm in a lazy mood or I'm not in full immersion mode. Not because it's "better" - but because I just can't be bothered to travel all the way back manually, even though it might actually be a lot more fun.

It's like when I turn down an invitation to a party, because I'm not in the mood - even though I'm fully aware that most parties turn out to be more fun than sitting around the house.

Incidentally, it's exactly the same reason I suspect some people are looking for an easy mode in Dark Souls - because it takes an investment to succeed without it. Doesn't mean an easy mode is the right way to go, though.

I also agree that that dev should make there own game, the game they want, not the game I want, or other people want. But I do see there come a point where(esp after the first game in a series) where feedback from fans I think should be taken into consideration, where adding some common convinecce options would not water down the core game, when it comes to Dark Soul many fans don't want an easy mode, so I understand them not adding one. But I also think they could add an easy mode(or at least allow a console to be enable on pc) with very little difficulty(i.e dev time/cost) and it would only help the game not hurt.
I'm pretty sure they've listened to feedback. What developer completely dismisses that? As long as they maintain their vision - they should be open to suggestions and possible improvements. Maybe they've decided that an easy mode just isn't right for the game.

But as you said we have both made our points. The biggest one for me is that people should not assume what other people will or won't like. There are people that enjoy Dark Soul's modded to be easier, it may seem odd to most Dark Sou's players but it is what it is. Just like the people that mod TES games in to some kind of abomination that I would hate to play(and would dramatically hurt the game sales wise if the vanilla game was like that) I don't assume they don't really know what they want(even though I do think that sometimes people really are confused about what makes a game fun for them).
It's definitely bad form to assume on behalf of others, we can agree on that. But I'd be lying if I claimed to believe that mainstream gamers or casual gamers understand the deeper concepts of game design and gameplay to the same extent as an enthusiast and dedicated gamer. I mean, how could they? It's not because they're stupid or inferior in any way whatsoever - they're just not as experienced with gaming and how they might respond to certain implementations of features.

So, while it may be bad form - I have to say I don't trust the average gamer over experienced developers with a clear vision. I also still don't believe that all games should be for all people.

Anyway I am glad you where able to maintain a civil tone, its so annoying when people can't discuss things in a reasonable manner.
I always try to maintain a civil tone with reasonable and honest people - which you seem to be
DArtagnan is offline

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#167

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 14,443

Default 

December 31st, 2012, 15:52
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Frankly, I think people want an easy mode because they don't respect or even want the kind of game Dark Souls really is.
And I think that people who ardently oppose an easy mode are way too occupied with how other people experience the game. It's either that, or they don't trust themselves to stick with the challenge if there is an easy way out.

If it's the latter, I can somehow understand the fear of succumbing to temptation. Perhaps offering an easy mode would be like offering an alcoholic a galss of whiskey, in which case we should perhaps abstain from the game, like one abstains from alcohol in the company of addicts.

But if it's the fomer, I can't understand why it should matter to anybody, how or why others play the game, or what the game is to them.
Mr Smiley is offline

Mr Smiley

Mr Smiley's Avatar
Watchdog

#168

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 158

Default 

December 31st, 2012, 16:01
Originally Posted by Mr Smiley View Post
And I think that people who ardently oppose an easy mode are way too occupied with how other people experience the game. It's either that, or they don't trust themselves to stick with the challenge if there is an easy way out.

If it's the latter, I can somehow understand the fear of succumbing to temptation. Perhaps offering an easy mode would be like offering an alcoholic a galss of whiskey, in which case we should perhaps abstain from the game, like one abstains from alcohol in the company of addicts.

But if it's the fomer, I can't understand why it should matter to anybody, how or why others play the game, or what the game is to them.
Maybe you should just read the thread and all the posts, including mine, that go into detail about the potential problems with an easy mode. Then, you don't have to speculate or conjure up a fantasy where I'm ardently against an easy mode.
DArtagnan is offline

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#169

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 14,443

Default 

January 1st, 2013, 03:52
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Maybe you should just read the thread and all the posts, including mine, that go into detail about the potential problems with an easy mode. Then, you don't have to speculate or conjure up a fantasy where I'm ardently against an easy mode.
Lots of people ardently oppose an easy mode all over the internet. I quoted you, but by "people who ardently oppose an easy mode" I meant just that, not you in particular.

I have read all the posts. And I don't buy any of your arguments against an easy mode. Take this one for instance:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
You can't just expect Dark Souls to work as an experience with a 50% reduction in terms of damage done or taken. A lot of the challenge in the game is not about damage, but about timing and outright death.
What "works" for you "as an experience" does not work the same way for everybody.

Have you read my posts? This one, for instance:

Originally Posted by Mr Smiley View Post
Many have stated that the difficulty is an inherent part of the design of Dark Souls, essential to the experience the developers intended for the player. (Prepare to die, right?) And I agree.

But what is difficulty in a game like this? How do you measure it? Actually, it can be easily measured in deaths and attempts.

Take any given obstacle in the game. This is a game where death is a natural ingredient; you are supposed to die and retry. How many times should you die and retry before you overcome a particular obstacle? What experience did the developers intend?

I don't know. But let's assume that if you defeat a particular enemy on the first try without dying, then the game is too easy for you, because the developer's intention was for you to experience three or four deaths there. Then, if you die ten times, the game is too hard for you, for the same reason.

My point is that the developers can't possibly control the player experience, because it's individual. Nor should they. The difference between interactive entertainment and movies, is that a game lets the player control their own experience to some extent, while movies are all about the director controlling the experience.
Mr Smiley is offline

Mr Smiley

Mr Smiley's Avatar
Watchdog

#170

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 158

Default 

January 1st, 2013, 04:28
Originally Posted by Mr Smiley View Post
What "works" for you "as an experience" does not work the same way for everybody.
Completely agree.

Unfortunately, some people just can't accept that their opinion doesn't apply to everyone, and they'll argue until they're blue in the face trying to convince you that their way must be right.
JDR13 is offline

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch

#171

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 17,819

Default 

January 1st, 2013, 11:00
Originally Posted by Mr Smiley View Post
Lots of people ardently oppose an easy mode all over the internet. I quoted you, but by "people who ardently oppose an easy mode" I meant just that, not you in particular.
It's good to know that you understand I'm not against it, but you could have made that clearer - since you used my post to quote.

What "works" for you "as an experience" does not work the same way for everybody.
If you didn't understand my argument, then I get why you don't buy it

I'm not talking about my experience - but the experience the developers intend for the players to have. That's the experience I respect more than you do.

My experience is irrelevant - and I'm not defending their approach for my own sake - but for their sake. I don't even like Dark Souls much.

But, if they can create an easy mode without changing the experience they intend for the players - then I don't mind it.

Have you read my posts? This one, for instance:
No, I haven't read your posts. I've made it clear that I've said my piece - and I have no interest in convincing people who don't agree.

But I'll give it a last go, I guess. That said, it's pretty obvious you won't "buy" it - so it's just retreading the same point for little reason. I certainly don't "buy" your argument, and until you start making sense, that won't change

Again, if it's possible to integrate an easy mode without interfering with the vision or the experience the developers intend - then I'm all for that. I doubt it's a trivial task, however, and I think they risk ruining everything. It's not about controlling the experience - but about setting a high level of demand on the player, because it's part of the vision. That doesn't mean that there aren't players out there who're so good that they won't struggle as much - or that a lot of players will struggle more. But human capacity to predict dangers without knowing what to expect is naturally limited - so the experience will be similar to everyone no matter how much you try to call it an individual thing. ALL players will struggle to an extent - and that's part of the vision of the developers. They want to enforce caution and a constant sense of danger - and they want you to evolve your skill-set within the game world, because progress is impossible without it.

That's how Dark Souls sets itself apart from mainstream games - because mainstream games are designed so a blind bat can get the full experience. The vision of mainstream games isn't one of struggle or an evolution of your skill-set unless you just want to be good at it for no reason, as you'll progress even if you suck.

I like the vision of Dark Souls, but even if I didn't - I'd defend the artist's right to create his art as he wants and not as the players might want - and Dark Souls is about as close to art as you can get in this business oriented industry.
DArtagnan is offline

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#172

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 14,443

Default 

January 1st, 2013, 13:16
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I'm not talking about my experience - but the experience the developers intend for the players to have. That's the experience I respect more than you do.
If you had read my posts, you would know that it's impossible for developers to control player experience in most cases. And I don't think they should either, because players generally don't like it. One example is Valve's Left 4 Dead, where the game adjusts the ammount of ammo you find based upon how much ammo you hoard or waste, because the developers intend for they player to almost run out of ammo. If the developers of Dark Souls intend a certain level of difficulty, they need to control it dynamically, which players tend to dislike.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
No, I haven't read your posts. I've made it clear that I've said my piece - and I have no interest in convincing people who don't agree.
Nice of you to admit that you haven't read my posts. I find it rather impolite not to read the posts of others before replying, though.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I certainly don't "buy" your argument, and until you start making sense, that won't change
Please quote where I don't make sense, and I'll try to explain my position further. I'm not all that interested in convincing people either, but I would at least like to make sense.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
It's not about controlling the experience - but about setting a high level of demand on the player, because it's part of the vision.
That's exactly why the "one size fits all" approach doesn't work. How "high" is a high level of demand? How do you measure it? And how do you control it?

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
That doesn't mean that there aren't players out there who're so good that they won't struggle as much - or that a lot of players will struggle more.
Exactly. And my point is that the individual player is in a much better position to judge the game's difficulty and adjust it to their own ability or taste, than the developer is.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
But human capacity to predict dangers without knowing what to expect is naturally limited - so the experience will be similar to everyone no matter how much you try to call it an individual thing.
Since the placement of traps and enemies is static in Dark Souls, everybody knows exactly what to expect after a few deaths. Player capacity to predict danger is unlimited and equal. But player capacity to overcome the known obstacles will vary a great deal.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I like the vision of Dark Souls, but even if I didn't - I'd defend the artist's right to create his art as he wants and not as the players might want - and Dark Souls is about as close to art as you can get in this business oriented industry.
Much of the appeal of Dark Souls has to do with mystery and discovery. But players can read all about every secret before even playing the game, thanks to online wikis and forums. To me that destroys the game much more, but it's impossible to control.

Of course artists have the right to create whatever art they want, but trying to control how their art is experienced and appreciated is futile. And because this is a business oriented industry, it's also stupid.
Mr Smiley is offline

Mr Smiley

Mr Smiley's Avatar
Watchdog

#173

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 158

Default 

January 1st, 2013, 22:09
Originally Posted by Mr Smiley View Post
If you had read my posts, you would know that it's impossible for developers to control player experience in most cases. And I don't think they should either, because players generally don't like it. One example is Valve's Left 4 Dead, where the game adjusts the ammount of ammo you find based upon how much ammo you hoard or waste, because the developers intend for they player to almost run out of ammo. If the developers of Dark Souls intend a certain level of difficulty, they need to control it dynamically, which players tend to dislike.
You mean by reading your posts - I get some kind of magical truth that you control?

No, your opinion is that developers shouldn't intend for players to have a certain kind of experience - and I disagree. I have no interest in reading your past posts - as I find the discussion cyclical and boring enough already.

I'd like it to be over, and I don't think we'll agree to anything about this.

Nice of you to admit that you haven't read my posts. I find it rather impolite not to read the posts of others before replying, though.
So, because you decide to quote me and talk about people being against easy modes - you expect me to read through all your posts? Are you on drugs?

Expecting people to read all your posts because you decide to respond to one of mine, is not only impolite - it's also incredibly arrogant.

Please quote where I don't make sense, and I'll try to explain my position further. I'm not all that interested in convincing people either, but I would at least like to make sense.
You're not making sense by talking about controlling the experience of the players - because that's not the issue. The issue is that they want players to have a certain kind of experience - but they don't want to control it for them. How people solve the problems or approach anything in the game is beyond their control - just as it should be. They just provide the game - and then it's out of their hands.

YOU are the one trying to control the developers and tell them how they should design their games - because YOU think it's reasonable.

That's exactly why the "one size fits all" approach doesn't work. How "high" is a high level of demand? How do you measure it? And how do you control it?
You tune it however you see fit as a developer, and when you think it's appropriately challenging - you're finished. I have no idea how they arrived at the balance - but it strikes me as pretty perfect in terms of balance. At least, based on my time with Demon's Souls.

Exactly. And my point is that the individual player is in a much better position to judge the game's difficulty and adjust it to their own ability or taste, than the developer is.
So, the player who has no involvement at all with the development process and has no knowledge about what the experience should be, is in a better position to balance the game for himself?

It's like telling a director that he should not have sex scenes - because some people don't enjoy that. But if the director thinks it's appropriate to the experience, I think he should include them. People who don't like that - can give the movie a bad review or stay away. But the rest of us want the movie as it was always intended to be.

Since the placement of traps and enemies is static in Dark Souls, everybody knows exactly what to expect after a few deaths. Player capacity to predict danger is unlimited and equal. But player capacity to overcome the known obstacles will vary a great deal.
Player capacity to predict danger is unlimited? Now you're not making sense again. Much of the game is about being careful - and it's intended that if you're not capable of being careful, you should die. That's the experience they intend for you to have.

Much of the appeal of Dark Souls has to do with mystery and discovery. But players can read all about every secret before even playing the game, thanks to online wikis and forums. To me that destroys the game much more, but it's impossible to control.
Ehm, your point being?

Of course artists have the right to create whatever art they want, but trying to control how their art is experienced and appreciated is futile. And because this is a business oriented industry, it's also stupid.
It's not futile in my opinion, and I'm very happy the developers agree with me. That you think it's futile - and you think caring more about the integrity of the art than maximising profit is stupid, tells me all I need to know about you and your position.

Anyway, I've had enough of repeating myself. There's nothing new here - and I don't feel like starting over constantly.
DArtagnan is offline

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#174

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 14,443
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Dark Souls II - What they can do to make it better @ Kotaku
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:29.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch