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Default Skyrim - Why Fallout: New Vegas is the Better Game

January 3rd, 2013, 20:40
I have played and completed both Morrowind and Oblivion - however I would like to try the older games as well, and I thought it would be fun to run through the whole series in order. Daggerfall in particular is held up as a high point in the series so I want to try that. And Skyrim can wait until all the DLC has been released
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January 3rd, 2013, 21:51
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
I have played and completed both Morrowind and Oblivion - however I would like to try the older games as well, and I thought it would be fun to run through the whole series in order. Daggerfall in particular is held up as a high point in the series so I want to try that. And Skyrim can wait until all the DLC has been released
I considered playing the entire series in order, but to be perfectly honest, I don't think it's worth the time. Arena and Daggerfall haven't aged particularly well imo, and neither are worth the timesink for a completist like myself. I'm just going to start off with a replay of Morrowind and go from there.
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January 4th, 2013, 01:44
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I considered . . . and neither are worth the timesink for a completist like myself. I'm just going to start off with a replay of Morrowind and go from there.
That's me talking too. I typically put in twice the hours that most gamers put in a typical game. I put in 300 hours in Skyrim without completing the Civil War nor the Main quest. Sheeez I put in 60 hours in Gothic 4/ Arcadia.

Anyways, Daggerfall is a huge huge game, with a very broken (IMO) auto map. Sometimes I feel like putting in some time again in that game but those 3D dungeon auto maps always make me re-consider.

OTH, I really loved Morrowwind, I started a replay a few months back but I only put in about 20 hours. I would like to see an updated game in that world. And I plan on getting to my Morrowwind replay duing a gaming lull.

as far as the original post (Fallout Vegas vs Skyrim) - even if I were to pick a better game of the two, both games were so good, in my book, the next RPG's by these developers is a day one purchase for me.
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January 4th, 2013, 17:14
I like Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim but I intensely dislike Daggerfall. I wanted to like it and tried starting a dozen times back in the day but something eventually (actually, soon after starting) always totally irked me and I would give up.
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January 5th, 2013, 12:47
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
Actually none of the TES games really require you to play the others, as they really tell a different story each time.

As for fallout new vegas, it was more a mod of FO3 since they walked into a working game already they could basically work on story, quests and content…something lost on a lot of people.
Repeating an old lie doesn't make it more true. Next you will be saying that Skyrim has a complete new engine, like the Toddler said.

The code of F3 (their Gamebryo iteration) was a mess - and Obsidian had to work with it. It was hard as the bugs indicate. F3 was not a "Working game" - it still crashes more on me than NV.

It's just that Skyrim is a nice place with nothing substantial to do in it. NV is an ugly place with lots of substantial things to do in it.

If you want to compare them, just compare the number of lines in the dialogue with the rebellion leader with one of a plethora of random NPCs in NV. Skyrim is vastly inferior.

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January 5th, 2013, 20:55
Originally Posted by Sir_Brennus View Post
Repeating an old lie doesn't make it more true. Next you will be saying that Skyrim has a complete new engine, like the Toddler said.

The GECK for FO3 and the GECK for FNV are almost exactly the same. They even use many of the same assets and underlying game systems. Skyrim's Creation Kit has some similarities, but there are many differences, they even created a new scripting language and new underlying systems for dynamic events, as well as optimizations for multicore processors.

A hell of a lot of work went into developing the developer toolkit, game world systems and environment assets for Skyrim. Certainly a lot of work went into developing Fallout New Vegas as well, and they did a brilliant job IMO. However, compared to Skyrim or FO3, not as much work went into developing the toolkit and game systems, as Obsidian was able to hit the ground running by using the existing FO3 engine and many of the same assets. This is why they were able to complete the New Vegas in two years, while it took a larger team four years to develop FO3 and Skyrim.
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January 5th, 2013, 23:51
Originally Posted by Sir_Brennus View Post
Repeating an old lie doesn't make it more true. Next you will be saying that Skyrim has a complete new engine, like the Toddler said.

The code of F3 (their Gamebryo iteration) was a mess - and Obsidian had to work with it. It was hard as the bugs indicate. F3 was not a "Working game" - it still crashes more on me than NV.

It's just that Skyrim is a nice place with nothing substantial to do in it. NV is an ugly place with lots of substantial things to do in it.

If you want to compare them, just compare the number of lines in the dialogue with the rebellion leader with one of a plethora of random NPCs in NV. Skyrim is vastly inferior.
Bethesda's Creation engine was just a heavily modified version of Gamebryo. The current game engine is just a heavily modified version of the Gamebryo engine. It was so heavily modified that they thought it deserved a new name. People would rather believe it's a new engine built from scratch when it's not.

There engine was the cause for most errors and design flaws on consoles and the pc. Yet Obsidian gets the blame and Bethesda as usual gets a free pass by the players and reviewers.

Back on topic I love both but personally prefer and had more fun with FNV. As said before opinions differ that's a fact of life everyone.

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January 6th, 2013, 01:01
Say what? Obsidian gets a pass on here for everything where as bethesda takes the blame for bugs.

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January 6th, 2013, 03:11
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
Say what? Obsidian gets a pass on here for everything where as bethesda takes the blame for bugs.
What you can''t read read?

Bethesda's engine was subpar and the cause of many errors and glitches. There present even in Skyrim. Obsidian's got bad press for there release and as stated Fallout 3 still crashes for many people during play.

Do I have to put in in simpler terms for you. Then again you can always say its there fault for using a flawed engine as you stated was handed to them already finished.

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January 6th, 2013, 04:52
I don't think Bethesda particularly cares which one people prefer. As the publisher of Vegas, most of the money from the game goes to Bethesda. They win no matter which game folks prefer. I'm 100% likely to buy the next BS game and will definitely be skipping the South Park game. However, I backed PE, so Obsidian gets a hunk of my cash that is equal to several BS games I think both devs win in the long run.
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January 6th, 2013, 12:15
I need to play New Vegas soon. But first I need to break the ME3 MP habit.
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January 6th, 2013, 13:35
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
Bethesda's Creation engine was just a heavily modified version of Gamebryo. The current game engine is just a heavily modified version of the Gamebryo engine.
Not really. It's their own stuff they've been working on since Morrowind, now they've switched to their own renderer too instead of using the Gamebryo one, so it's now their own engine. But yeah it has the same boring bugs because most of it is old stuff they've had since Morrowind, only upgraded and sometimes with the introduction of new bugs.

FO:NV was far buggier than FO3 though, you could easily tell they were less experienced. FO3 ran flawless for me, it didn't have any of the hitching that Oblivion had, i was actually quite impressed with how smooth it ran compared to Oblivion. In FO:NV that stuttering was back, almost as bad as in Oblivion, it was also CTD'ing a lot more than FO3. I think most people would agree FO:NV is the buggier game.

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January 6th, 2013, 14:54
Originally Posted by BillSeurer View Post
I like Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim but I intensely dislike Daggerfall. I wanted to like it and tried starting a dozen times back in the day but something eventually (actually, soon after starting) always totally irked me and I would give up.
My sentiments precisely (except I didn't like Oblivion).
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January 6th, 2013, 15:18
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
FO:NV was far buggier than FO3 though, you could easily tell they were less experienced.
Speak for yourself.
On my old rig I couldn't play FO3 at all, it crashed constantly. FNV on the other hand worked flawlessly since the day 1 and later I didn't spot any annoyance unfixed that can be fixed by those that don't own the engine (I'm talking about Obsidian here, not fans!).

Bethesda's release a bug-o-rama that won't get fixed ever strategy was not discontinued with (heavily modified old) engine used in Skyrim. And for whatever reason, ppl still spit on Obsidian. But I was clear in the first reply in this thread - the only reason why FNV is better than Skyrim is the approach to bugfixing. It's Bethesda who wants to get a bugfixing service from fans - for free.

Don't get me wrong, Bethesda is not the only developer with the "evil" strategy - let fans to do bugfixing for free as there are no millions to earn from that, milk more cash by concentrating on stuff like DLC instead. Akella's Sea Dogs and all it's differently named sequels is another case of the same thing where fans had to polish too many things by themselves.

Shall I widen the story why am I so extreme?
Remember that it was fans who fixed many BG/BG2 bugs and there were/are still fixpacks available out there. Fans' fixpacks. Did those fans ever got payed? No! And then some guys come with so called EE crap that's basically a port to smartphones and want to grab 20$ for that - as one of ppl who actually made some fanfixes in BG2 (for example it was me who fixed "Bodhi doesn't appear" script problem by switching the lines that force the engine to ignore the rest of the script if a bug occurs) I was disgusted and will never buy EE. Nor will ever say that FNV is not better than Bugrim.
Last edited by joxer; January 6th, 2013 at 15:34.
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January 6th, 2013, 17:35
Oh what drivel, the developers are responsible for what they put out. Every game obsidian has released is a bugfest, but to some of you it is never there fault. I like their games don't get me wrong but to blame the evil corporate overlords is stupid. Plain stupid. I can't put it in simpler terms then that.

I find it baffling how some of you "extremists" can't see FNV as what it was, a professional mod to FO3.

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January 6th, 2013, 21:08
OK, it's a professional "mod". Are you happy now?

Fantastic game that makes my Top 10 and I couldn't give a shit mod or a few bugs.

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January 6th, 2013, 21:21
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
OK, it's a professional "mod". Are you happy now?

Fantastic game that makes my Top 10 and I couldn't give a shit mod or a few bugs.
You had no problem with them saying all the bugs were because of Bethesda but take offence with my take on it as a professional mod of an already finished game?

I think it was a great game, but I am not foolish enough to blame others for what Obsidian is known for.

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January 6th, 2013, 21:42
Is there some other huge open world sandbox RPG engine with less bugs than Skyrim and Fallout New Vegas?

With no mods installed, neither Skyrim nor New Vegas ever crashed to desktop on me. In contrast, there are smaller, linear games (which are much easier to QA) that have crashed. The only bugs I encountered in either game were insignificant glitches, like a radscorpion melting into the terrain, an NPC in Riften stayed in jail even though he was supposed to be out in a few days, Louis Letrush cloned himself, a skill magazine was melting into the terrain, etc. Personally I don't care about that type of stuff.

It's one thing to QA a linear corridor shooter with 5-10 hour campaign hundreds of times, but it's not possible to test these big open world sandbox RPGs in the same way. You could hire a staff of hundreds to test the game nonstop for years and still not find everything. And when you do find something, you have to determine whether fixing it could result in problems in other areas.

If you enjoy this kind of big open world sandbox RPG with hundreds of locations and quests and thousands of NPCs, etc., some minor glitches come with the territory. In both Fallout New Vegas and Skyrim, they managed to catch and fix (at least for the PC version) any serious, gamebreaking stuff prior to release, that's what counts IMO.
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January 6th, 2013, 22:55
Originally Posted by CountChocula View Post
Is there some other huge open world sandbox RPG engine with less bugs than Skyrim and Fallout New Vegas?

With no mods installed, neither Skyrim nor New Vegas ever crashed to desktop on me. In contrast, there are smaller, linear games (which are much easier to QA) that have crashed. The only bugs I encountered in either game were insignificant glitches, like a radscorpion melting into the terrain, an NPC in Riften stayed in jail even though he was supposed to be out in a few days, Louis Letrush cloned himself, a skill magazine was melting into the terrain, etc. Personally I don't care about that type of stuff.

It's one thing to QA a linear corridor shooter with 5-10 hour campaign hundreds of times, but it's not possible to test these big open world sandbox RPGs in the same way. You could hire a staff of hundreds to test the game nonstop for years and still not find everything. And when you do find something, you have to determine whether fixing it could result in problems in other areas.

If you enjoy this kind of big open world sandbox RPG with hundreds of locations and quests and thousands of NPCs, etc., some minor glitches come with the territory. In both Fallout New Vegas and Skyrim, they managed to catch and fix (at least for the PC version) any serious, gamebreaking stuff prior to release, that's what counts IMO.
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January 7th, 2013, 08:54
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
You had no problem with them saying all the bugs were because of Bethesda but take offence with my take on it as a professional mod of an already finished game?

I think it was a great game, but I am not foolish enough to blame others for what Obsidian is known for.
I'm not offended.

In terms of the bugs, which in my experience were on par with FO3:

a) Noone does content with the complexity of Obsidian games but "bug free"
b) Bethesda is the publisher. They have ultimate choice of whether to release or not. The buck stops with them, just as the buck stops with me for anyone in my department, even when I didn't personally do the work.
c) See a).

You obviously disagree - and people love to argue about this topic for some reason - but it isn't "foolish" to lay any problems at Bethsoft's feet.

Arguable - definitely. Foolish? No.

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