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Default I love a story with a happy ending.

January 14th, 2013, 19:32
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
DTE is right, 'greater good' is very subjective. Some of the worst acts of humanity were for the 'greater good.'
I assume you suggest we should avoid this for the greater good.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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January 14th, 2013, 19:53
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
It's just called getting old mate!!
Or ya know, actually growing up and being mature. I know that is expecting a lot on a gaming site.
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January 14th, 2013, 19:57
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
Tell that to Sryia and Libya.
Sure go ahead and move to Syria and Libya then and fight with the rest of the actually oppressed population. But in the US or Western Europe, you're living in a pure fantasy is you think you need guns to defend yourself against the government.
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January 14th, 2013, 20:41
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Sure go ahead and move to Syria and Libya then and fight with the rest of the actually oppressed population. But in the US or Western Europe, you're living in a pure fantasy is you think you need guns to defend yourself against the government.
You're missing the point. There are a lot of things I think have gone wrong in the US in the past 20 or so years, but I don't think we're at a point that armed rebellion makes a lick of sense. However, that day MAY come if we continue down that road. When it does, it will be far too late to start thinking about getting armed. The point of an armed population is that it is a check on governmental power that hopefully never has to get used.

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January 14th, 2013, 21:00
So paranoia about the future isn't a delusional fantasy? OK… Here's some Rush Limbaugh-brand koolaid, too.
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January 14th, 2013, 21:01
I was a Boy Scout. I believe in being prepared!

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January 14th, 2013, 22:35
Nothing will save you from the feds if they really want to come after you… Thus the delusion squared. Delusion that they would come after you + delusion that a gun would save you = certifiably crazy.
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January 14th, 2013, 22:40
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
I was a Boy Scout. I believe in being prepared!
You're kidding me - people should own guns so that they can protect themselves when society crumbles? That's nutty. In the U.S (and Oz) there's a far greater chance that you'll get old and fat and suffer a heart attack - do you have a defibrillator stashed under your bed too?

But again that's beside the point. Having a gun around to protect yourself from any perceived threat is irresponsible; they're too dangerous. Build a bunker, put bars on your windows, etc.
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January 14th, 2013, 22:48
It's a fantasy that these guys hold that they can be the hero. Also, gun fetish.
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January 15th, 2013, 00:04
Originally Posted by badmofo View Post
But again that's beside the point. Having a gun around to protect yourself from any perceived threat is irresponsible; they're too dangerous.
That's a charming opinion you have there. You might consider backing it up with evidence if you want to attempt to pass that charming opinion off as fact. Otherwise, it's just so many wasted electrons, and typical of most of the "arguments" that have been presented in this thread to support gun control.

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January 15th, 2013, 00:20
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
That's a charming opinion you have there. You might consider backing it up with evidence if you want to attempt to pass that charming opinion off as fact. Otherwise, it's just so many wasted electrons, and typical of most of the "arguments" that have been presented in this thread to support gun control.
I'm not trying to pass my opinion as fact homeboy, don't give me that prissy crap. This is a discussion on a computer game forum - it's all just opinions. My opinion is that guns are designed to kill, and therefore too dangerous to have around the house for "protection". The means does not justify the end.

Cars are dangerous, but we need them. Guns are dangerous, but who really needs 'em? So suck it up and take one for the team. Loose the guns, make the world a little bit safer**.

** that was just my opinion too so keep your pants on.
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January 15th, 2013, 01:57
Originally Posted by badmofo View Post
I'm not trying to pass my opinion as fact homeboy, don't give me that prissy crap. This is a discussion on a computer game forum - it's all just opinions. My opinion is that guns are designed to kill, and therefore too dangerous to have around the house for "protection". The means does not justify the end.

Cars are dangerous, but we need them. Guns are dangerous, but who really needs 'em? So suck it up and take one for the team. Loose the guns, make the world a little bit safer**.

** that was just my opinion too so keep your pants on.
Would you not agree that "this is my opinion because…" might be more useful than "this is my opinion and I'm right because I say so"?

After all, let's take a look at your logic, such as it is. Let's test that threshold. Knives are dangerous. Need those? Cell phones are dangerous (thousands of deaths directly linked to texting while driving). Need those? The internet is dangerous (several recent defeated terrorist bombers got their bomb "recipes" on the internet). Need that? Many of JemyM's academic pals have produced impressive studies that show video games lead to violent behavior, which would have to be called dangerous. Need those?

So what makes you so certain of your answer on guns?

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January 15th, 2013, 02:05
It's a trap. Beware!

I don't (and most non-psychopathetic and non-paranoid individuals) find guns useful…
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January 15th, 2013, 02:26
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Would you not agree that "this is my opinion because" might be more useful than "this is my opinion and I'm right because I say so"?

After all, let's take a look at your logic, such as it is. Let's test that threshold. Knives are dangerous. Need those? Cell phones are dangerous (thousands of deaths directly linked to texting while driving). Need those? The internet is dangerous (several recent defeated terrorist bombers got their bomb "recipes" on the internet). Need that? Many of JemyM's academic pals have produced impressive studies that show video games lead to violent behavior, which would have to be called dangerous. Need those?

So what makes you so certain of your answer on guns?
This "you should have said it this way" sookiness tells me that you're on the ropes, so keep it up.

OK so we have guns, then we have knives, mobile phones, the internet - spot the difference? Guns are designed to kill, everything else is designed for other, useful purposes. Yes they may be misused, but that's just humans for ya. No reasonable person would suggest we have to eat our roast lamb whole from now on because knifes can be misused and harm people.
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January 15th, 2013, 05:43
So it's a question of design, as opposed to the actual results in the real world, eh? Why worry about what happens in the real world when we can manufacture a moral high ground based on some theoretical "intent" that we place on an inanimate object. I notice you gloss over the obvious potential violence of knives simply because you, in your infinite wisdom, determined that cutting your steak has more value than some poor bastard getting cut up. Gotta love that consistent logic.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 15th, 2013, 09:11
The thing about knives is that they're necessary for basic daily functions - and they're much much less convenient to kill with. We don't need weapons to kill, so doing away with them won't prevent killing entirely.

But guns aren't necessary for basic functions, and they're way too easy to kill with - and you can get away with shooting sprees by the thread of a gun alone.

As much as a black/white fool might compare them directly to knives or cars - they're something entirely different.

Yes, they can all be deadly - just like a piece of wood or a fist, but there's a pretty excessively obvious difference that you can ignore as you choose, but it won't go away.
Last edited by DArtagnan; January 15th, 2013 at 13:20.
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January 15th, 2013, 12:15
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
You haven't been able to counter any fact [such as a complete rebuttal of your proposal in Chicago] against your position in this thread, you always react by polarizing against the messenger, sorting them into a fuzzy category which you the describe with derogative [since you were so helpful with my spelling error, I'll return the favor- "derogatory"] labels and speculation about their intelligence.
Pladio pointed out poverty rates right after your post which is just how I would reply to the same "facts". Your reply to him reveal that you do not actually grasp the proposal in the first place.

In statistics we have something known as a moderator. An Armor for example doesn't heal you but decrease damage taken, in statistics an Armor can be said to moderate damage. A moderator boosts or diminish the effect of the main cause for something. Poverty is one of the main factors that is known to be correlated with a high rate of murder, this is true even in nations where firearms have been illegal. Firearms as a moderator boost the rate.

And I do not polarize. It's difficult to polarize when you do not have a binary worldview in the first place. I do not blame people for poor intellect either. My research on extremism at this moment is focused on cognitive effects of uncertainty and that seem to have similar effects regardless of "intelligence".

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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January 15th, 2013, 12:25
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
"Greater good" is subjective and relative, to the point of being meaningless. Makes for a lot of empty warm fuzzies, though.
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
DTE is right, 'greater good' is very subjective. Some of the worst acts of humanity were for the 'greater good.'
I'd like you guys to make a comment on this. Do you agree that there is a rationality behind reducing rights for "greater good", where the potential impact of irresponsibility is great harm?

Consider the following;
1. Driving speed
2. Storage of dangerous goods
3. Surgery

If you answer no, that there's no rationality behind regulating these for "greater good" then fine. If you answer yes, do you agree that the argument "for greater good" is still valid, despite mis-usage in the past?

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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January 15th, 2013, 15:24
You're misapplying results for justifications. There was objective evidence, to use your example, that speed limits saved lives (although it should be noted that over the past 10 years or so speed limits have been increased as much as 30% over the wailing of various do-gooders, with no change in accident rate). The limit was installed based on evidence. The end result could be considered a benefit to "the greater good", whatever the hell that subjective goo is from person to person.

In gun control, the objective evidence does not support gun control as a means to achieve the stated goals - see real world evidence I've supplied over 2 threads. Lacking the necessary facts, the gun control folks have gone for an emotional plea, offering an end result as a justification. It's the exact same flawed logic used with "God intended it that way."

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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Last edited by dteowner; January 15th, 2013 at 16:08.
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January 15th, 2013, 15:31
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Nothing will save you from the feds if they really want to come after you… Thus the delusion squared. Delusion that they would come after you + delusion that a gun would save you = certifiably crazy.
I don't believe in taking a defeatist attitude like that.

Originally Posted by badmofo View Post
You're kidding me - people should own guns so that they can protect themselves when society crumbles?
I didn't say anything about society crumbling, I specifically mentioned oppression from our government. I would much rather have one and never need it, than need it and not have it.

That's nutty. In the U.S (and Oz) there's a far greater chance that you'll get old and fat and suffer a heart attack - do you have a defibrillator stashed under your bed too?

But again that's beside the point. Having a gun around to protect yourself from any perceived threat is irresponsible; they're too dangerous. Build a bunker, put bars on your windows, etc.
Dangerous to who? A properly stored gun is dangerous to no one.

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