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Default I love a story with a happy ending.

January 15th, 2013, 16:01
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
In gun control, the objective evidence does not support gun control as a means to achieve the stated goals - see real world evidence I've supplied over 2 threads. Lacking the necessary facts, the gun control folks have gone for an emotional plea, offering an end result as a justification. It's the exact same flawed logic used with "God intended it that way."
The objective evidence show that the states have an unusual amount of rampage killers and firearm murders compared to other western nations.




To explain this we need a theory consistent with observable evidence. For instance, the "God was expunged from schools" theory is contradicted by the low rate of rampage killings in highly secular nations so that theory doesn't work. So we need to look at other factors that correlate with frequency of rampage killers. The Americans are mere crazy theory doesn't seem to fly either since the killer profile can be found in other nations, yet rampage killers aren't frequent;


Do firearm possession correlate with firearm murders?



Are they legal?


To quote a leading philosopher;

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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Okay, now roll sanity.

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January 15th, 2013, 17:08
All very impressive, and yet when confronted with conflicting real-world evidence such as Chicago, which did exactly as you propose in the exact nation in question and had exactly the opposite result as you predict, you're quick to point out that it's more complicated than just guns. Personally, I find that response typical of someone that realizes they've gotten a logical wedgie but throw up some "you wouldn't understand, silly child" nonsense to try to reclaim their dignity and intellectual standing. Regardless, either the problem is simple and your answer simply doesn't hold water, or the problem is complex and you're offering up a simplistic one-pronged solution as some sort of panacea. Crappy logic either way.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 15th, 2013, 17:35
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
All very impressive, and yet when confronted with conflicting real-world evidence such as Chicago, which did exactly as you propose in the exact nation in question and had exactly the opposite result as you predict, you're quick to point out that it's more complicated than just guns. Personally, I find that response typical of someone that realizes they've gotten a logical wedgie but throw up some "you wouldn't understand, silly child" nonsense to try to reclaim their dignity and intellectual standing. Regardless, either the problem is simple and your answer simply doesn't hold water, or the problem is complex and you're offering up a simplistic one-pronged solution as some sort of panacea. Crappy logic either way.
The theory that firearms is a catalyst rather than a cause have been my theory from the beginning. Inconsistencies you may spot in my logic is based on you ignoring the premise.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
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January 15th, 2013, 17:54
It's not you, honey, it's me.

Since it's yours, it must be perfect logic—any doubt is, by definition, simply my inability to perceive your obvious infallibility. Got it!

You can call it a cause, or a catalyst, or Bob. Chicago did exactly as you propose in the exact nation in question and had the exact opposite result as you predict. If you've got your head so buried in textbooks that real world data like that doesn't at least make you question your theory, there's not much I can do to help you.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 15th, 2013, 20:30
Dte, one more try. As Jemy is saying. The gun control was meant to reduce the amount of gun-related deaths in Chicago. However, if poverty went up at the same time or a multitude of other factors change, then the gun control will not be as effective.

AGAIN,

Gun control is only one ( repeat, 1, repeat again, 1 ) of the elements of reducing gun-related crimes.

Your oversimplifications do not help.

In this thread we have been discussing gun control and not poverty alleviation since that is what Sam brought up!

If you want to talk about alleviating poverty, then you are welcome to create a thread about that and I am quite certain you will have a lot of people disagreeing with you on those counts too.

So for the last time from me to you:

Gun crime is not related only to gun control, but it is one of the factors as shown from Jemy's graphs, so that is why it IS being discussed as a way to reduce it

Do you finally understand that ?

EDIT: Everyone else, excuse my large fonts, but dte has had a habit of ignoring my posts in this thread, so I'm trying to make sure he actually sees this one.
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January 15th, 2013, 21:12
OK, Pladio, allow me to summarize as well. Keep in mind that I'm also responding to the broader issue here, so my answer might not line up word-for-word with your exact position. I'll try to keep it close.

Even if you propose gun control as part of a broader initiative (WHICH YOU DID NOT until faced with the Chicago evidence), it has been demonstrated that your proposal failed in the real world. Now, the gun control folks haven't said jack shit about poverty, and you know it. "Take away the guns and you take away the opportunity." Throwing it in there after you've gotten a logic wedgie is sloppy and disingenuous. But let's allow it for a moment.

Presumably, over the 28 years where Chicago had a gun ban in place, you folks have been working on poverty as well, yes? Let's call all those fantastic ideas, programs, activities, and feel-goodie hubbub, X. Now, unless you've got a major unveiling waiting in the wings, you intend to continue doing X, yes? After all, that's working on the problem of poverty. For my purposes, I don't give two shits what is contained in X. You get full credit for doing it, you get impressive medals for its rousing success, and you get full credit for continuing it forever and ever going forward.

SO….

guns + X = baseline quantity of gun-related violence
gun ban + X = HIGHER QUANTITY OF GUN VIOLENCE

Let's say that you feel that X is, in truth, a dismal failure. For clarity, let's call that, Y. We can even say that Y means we didn't do shit about poverty, wealth distribution, mental health, and phases of the moon—whatever it is in that completely undefined lump that you're so hung up on.

guns + Y = level of gun related violence
gun ban + Y = HIGHER LEVEL OF GUN VIOLENCE

So, unless you've got new things to offer that make up X, all your whining about outside factors makes no difference to the topic whatsoever and the continued attempts to hang a gun ban on it would have to be considered, at the most generous possible, misdirection.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 15th, 2013, 21:15
Maybe he needs new glasses? Who wants to start a pool to pay for him visiting a optometrist?
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January 15th, 2013, 21:16
You do realize that a single case or ancedote doesn't invalidate a claim made for the larger population, right? Or do we need to educate you about basic statistics?
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January 15th, 2013, 21:20
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
I don't believe in taking a defeatist attitude like that.
Hmm, thinking the government may come after you is defeatist AND paranoid delusional.
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January 15th, 2013, 21:36
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Hmm, thinking the government may come after you is defeatist AND paranoid delusional.
Not at all. The government has been invading our privacy more and more over the past two decades. The fourth amendment has been largely gutted with no knock warrants, no-refusal DWI stops, and the like. We have unmanned drones patrolling our skies now. Add in crap like where Bloomberg thinks he knows what is best for every New Yorker and Big Brother is indeed watching, and its only getting worse.

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January 15th, 2013, 22:06
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
OK, Pladio, allow me to summarize as well. Keep in mind that I'm also responding to the broader issue here, so my answer might not line up word-for-word with your exact position. I'll try to keep it close.

Even if you propose gun control as part of a broader initiative (WHICH YOU DID NOT until faced with the Chicago evidence)
Uhmm, not true. We've raised the issue of poverty and I've said there were other factors quite a few times before Chicago was raised.

I remember at least once where not only I, but Jemy too told you (probably repeatedly) that comparing developing countries to the US is not the same due to poverty.

, it has been demonstrated that your proposal failed in the real world.
It has not if you consider every Western European nation, which you like to ignore… You also seem to probably ignore every other city in the US where the opposite is showing (which might not only be the result of gun control)

Now, the gun control folks haven't said jack shit about poverty, and you know it. "Take away the guns and you take away the opportunity." Throwing it in there after you've gotten a logic wedgie is sloppy and disingenuous. But let's allow it for a moment.
Why would I care about what "the gun control folks" have to say. I'm not debating for them. I'm debating for myself.

Presumably, over the 28 years where Chicago had a gun ban in place, you folks have been working on poverty as well, yes? Let's call all those fantastic ideas, programs, activities, and feel-goodie hubbub, X.
I don't know what they are but if they don't work then others should be found.

Now, unless you've got a major unveiling waiting in the wings, you intend to continue doing X, yes? After all, that's working on the problem of poverty. For my purposes, I don't give two shits what is contained in X. You get full credit for doing it, you get impressive medals for its rousing success, and you get full credit for continuing it forever and ever going forward.

SO….

guns + X = baseline quantity of gun-related violence
gun ban + X = HIGHER QUANTITY OF GUN VIOLENCE
If X is a negative force stronger than the gun control (I have NOT ONCE spoken of a gun ban and that's not what's happened in Chicago either, I presume) then that's quite normal.

5 + x = y
If x = 10 then y =15
If x = -2 then y = 3

See, your maths do make sense if you actually put numbers in them.

Our point is that x is negative in Chicago, so that even though gun control is a positive element, the negative x'es are too strong to make the gun control felt.

Let's say that you feel that X is, in truth, a dismal failure. For clarity, let's call that, Y. We can even say that Y means we didn't do shit about poverty, wealth distribution, mental health, and phases of the moon—whatever it is in that completely undefined lump that you're so hung up on.

guns + Y = level of gun related violence
gun ban + Y = HIGHER LEVEL OF GUN VIOLENCE

So, unless you've got new things to offer that make up X, all your whining about outside factors makes no difference to the topic whatsoever and the continued attempts to hang a gun ban on it would have to be considered, at the most generous possible, misdirection.
So, no it's part of the solution, just not all of it. x being a failure doesn't mean gun control shouldn't be there. It just means x has to be done better. So the goal would be to make x go from -2 to +10 if you need maths to help. (I'm not bad with maths as that's part of my job and I studied engineering. Even though x + y can be quite troublesome sometimes…_
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January 15th, 2013, 22:37
OK, and for the grande finale…

SO, you're saying that the key is to get X from -2 to 10. I'm fine with that. Then why the hell are you so certain that gun control, which is not included in X, has any effect? You've stated that X is the dominant factor. Based on the data, I agree with you. If that's the case, then the value of the "setting" of the gun control switch is somewhere between minimal impact and noise. So, you're going to piss all over the Constitution and limit freedoms for something between minimal impact and noise. And, based on the most applicable data, the minimal impact is in fact NEGATIVE. Well done.

Further, for someone so excited about outside factors, I'm absolutely amazed at how quickly you'll gloss over cultural differences between Western Europe and America. Well, perhaps "amazed" is a poor choice, because I'm not at all surprised that you'd be quick to gloss over uncomfortable holes in your so-called argument. If you've got a complicated problem, you minimize the variables. Perhaps you might actually pay attention to what happened in ILLINOIS, USA, NORTH AMERICA, rather than what happened in Utaya (oh, sorry, bad example). But that would entail actual examination of the foregone conclusion, which clearly isn't part of the program.

It boils down to your exact words:
"…even though gun control is a positive element [ed: unsupported assumption, but we'll let that slide], the negative x'es are too strong to make the gun control felt."

Response? More gun control! C'mon. That sort of foolishness is supposed to end with "4. Profit!" Do y'all really consider this shit, or are you just so cocksure that you think anyone that might notice the utter idiocy can be cast off with a "You couldn't understand, little child." and hope nobody notices?

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 15th, 2013, 22:40
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
You do realize that a single case or ancedote doesn't invalidate a claim made for the larger population, right? Or do we need to educate you about basic statistics?
It's a single data point, which is obviously not a good sample. It's also exactly one data point more than the gun control side has.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 15th, 2013, 22:48
Again, that's just ONE element and is the element on this thread because Sam brought it up.

If you want to create a thread about the other factors, feel free.

Saying that it should not be done is like saying the following:

Adding more police to the street in town A did not reduce crime rate. (Let's do like you are doing now) This means we can remove all police officers from town A.

Gun control isn't doing anything, so let's halt all gun control.

However, what I am saying is:

Police officers on their own cannot reduce crime rate if everything else is going badly. For example if the police officers are all corrupt then adding more of them will not solve much, so what you would need to do is make sure the new ones you add are at the very least less corrupt than the old ones or purge the current one of corrupt officers.

For guns, having assault weapons is in my opinion (based on my Europeanised view of things) unnecessary for almost anyone, but the army. (I already find it strange that police officers have machine guns in the UK …)

So in my opinion banning them will do nothing bad to your beloved constitution compared to how much it can reduce gun-crime and thus save lives.
Making the gun-control laws better would also not harm your constitution and might save more lives. While the effect on their own might not be a lot. Combining them to other programmes (not discussed in this thread) it might result in many synergies.


Doing any ONE thing will not result in much. It's doing multiple things that will. THIS THREAD IS ABOUT GUNS !
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January 15th, 2013, 23:34
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
It's a single data point, which is obviously not a good sample. It's also exactly one data point more than the gun control side has.
Euhmmm. You really do like ignoring other people's posts ?


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January 15th, 2013, 23:38
Dte, you forgot one important point about Chicago……..it's where Obama comes from!!!!! Perhaps that's the Z factor.

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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January 16th, 2013, 00:38
Originally Posted by blatantninja View Post
Not at all. The government has been invading our privacy more and more over the past two decades. The fourth amendment has been largely gutted with no knock warrants, no-refusal DWI stops, and the like. We have unmanned drones patrolling our skies now. Add in crap like where Bloomberg thinks he knows what is best for every New Yorker and Big Brother is indeed watching, and its only getting worse.
Huh? What does that have to do with the government coming after you and being able to defend yourself against said army? Or is it just a general air of paranoia you're after.
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January 16th, 2013, 01:15
bn, I think Thrasher is trolling you …
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January 16th, 2013, 01:57
wut? I never understood the paranoid mind. And I haven't even gotten myself in much trouble, either.
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January 16th, 2013, 02:50
I post a story, I ramble a little and express myself, then you guys do all the arguing. It's actually quite a nice arrangement. Youre seriously breaking out mathematical formulas here, awesome. I had no idea it would go to this torturous length! I know Hitler has to have made an appearance in the prior pages by now, i just have no desire to thread therein. In a way I almost feel sorry for the rigors that everyone who isnt a 'male feminist' has had to endure in this thread. Then again, you guys seem to enjoy it….

Anyway, this one isnt too much of a "story" so I can only get so amped about it. No lone mother defending her children, no ailing invalid saved by his trusty 9mm he's had since the summer of '69. Just those magical words 'suspect killed'.


Home invasion suspect shot and killed, homeowner not injured


That is indeed what i consider a "happy ending"

Well, that and me going to make a grilled cheese. Watch some Trek w/ the wife.
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