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January 16th, 2013, 03:48
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Huh? What does that have to do with the government coming after you and being able to defend yourself against said army? Or is it just a general air of paranoia you're after.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you…

Seriously, though, it's just an extension of the current trends. All the things bn cites are genuine, easily documented, and clearly reflect the growing role government is taking in citizens' lives, whether they like it or not. Probably suffers from something akin to the "linear projection of a non linear trend", but brushing it off as baseless paranoia ignores the facts just as badly, if not not worse.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 16th, 2013, 04:24
And what part of "being able to defend yourself against said army" did you miss? It's ludicrous to think you can stave off the government with guns. :/
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January 16th, 2013, 10:13
I get this whole paranoia anti-government thing, and though it IS ludicrous (even if we're talking the US) - I understand the nature of that fear.

But what I don't understand is how you can be so damned proud of your nation at the same time.

It's like you're stuck in pre-school where they fed you the constitution and you think you're still living with Lincoln and Washington.

It's amazing, really
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January 16th, 2013, 10:30
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Carrying a gun increases your likelihood of being shot
It seems somewhat logical to me that the scenarios in which a gun is actually effective in helping you to get a "happy ending" in an encounter with an (armed) criminal are relatively limited, that is situations in which you have the initiative/element of surprise (such as surprising a burglar/murderer in your house, or coming in on a situation where the criminal does have his attention on someone/something else. In many other situations, i.e. all situation in which a weapon is already aimed at you, or the assailant has one ready, reaching for a gun or acting cocky because you have one is probably rather a risk. In short, I would consider a gun more effective as an offensive weapon than as a defense.
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January 16th, 2013, 14:21
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I get this whole paranoia anti-government thing, and though it IS ludicrous (even if we're talking the US) - I understand the nature of that fear.

But what I don't understand is how you can be so damned proud of your nation at the same time.

It's like you're stuck in pre-school where they fed you the constitution and you think you're still living with Lincoln and Washington.

It's amazing, really
Indeed, why can't we be civilized? We could plummet the globe into two world wars. We could do a little modern day genocide. Twice. We could run our country to fiscal ruin (see, we're trying to follow your footsteps) and then burn the country to the ground when the bills finally came due. We could regulate cucumber bow. We could basically outsource our defense to another nation, and then complain about it constantly. We could pontificate about redneck racists while treating our own (the Roma, in case you weren't sure) even worse. Do I need to continue, oh wise ones?

Indeed.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 16th, 2013, 14:26
Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan View Post
It seems somewhat logical to me that the scenarios in which a gun is actually effective in helping you to get a "happy ending" in an encounter with an (armed) criminal are relatively limited, that is situations in which you have the initiative/element of surprise (such as surprising a burglar/murderer in your house, or coming in on a situation where the criminal does have his attention on someone/something else. In many other situations, i.e. all situation in which a weapon is already aimed at you, or the assailant has one ready, reaching for a gun or acting cocky because you have one is probably rather a risk. In short, I would consider a gun more effective as an offensive weapon than as a defense.
OK. So what in there makes your opinion globally applicable? What makes GBG's opinion (and it's not just you, we could put lots of names behind the exact same sentiment) more important than dte's or Sammy's or bn's choice? That only relevant data point says that taking away guns didn't solve anything and the laws of the land are extremely clear protecting that choice. So what gives you the right to take away my choice? Because you "think so"? "The greater good" that somehow didn't benefit in Chicago? Please.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 16th, 2013, 14:28
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Indeed, why can't we be civilized? We could plummet the globe into two world wars. We could do a little modern day genocide. Twice. We could run our country to fiscal ruin (see, we're trying to follow your footsteps) and then burn the country to the ground when the bills finally came due. We could regulate cucumber bow. We could basically outsource our defense to another nation, and then complain about it constantly. We could pontificate about redneck racists while treating our own (the Roma, in case you weren't sure) even worse. Do I need to continue, oh wise ones?

Indeed.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say - but the difference between myself and the people who take pride in their nation, is that I don't take pride in my nation.

I recognise that we're all human and subject to a whole lot of nasty shit, and if my nation had been the most powerful in the world - it would be just as corrupt and pathetically distasteful as yours is. It's the nature of power and human beings when mixed.

So, how about being a bit of a grown-up and stop being proud of corruption, greed and incompetence?
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January 16th, 2013, 14:51
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
OK. So what in there makes your opinion globally applicable? What makes GBG's opinion (and it's not just you, we could put lots of names behind the exact same sentiment) more important than dte's or Sammy's or bn's choice? That only relevant data point says that taking away guns didn't solve anything and the laws of the land are extremely clear protecting that choice. So what gives you the right to take away my choice? Because you "think so"? "The greater good" that somehow didn't benefit in Chicago? Please.
Wow, dte, you seem to really have a penchant for ignoring any posts that actually refute what you're saying.

I am giving you an A+ for that. Everything else though is you claiming we're on high horses.

You've again ignored two of my posts and have quite comfortingly for you ignored all the of the statistics Jemy brought to your attention.
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January 16th, 2013, 15:18
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
And what part of "being able to defend yourself against said army" did you miss? It's ludicrous to think you can stave off the government with guns. :/
If Barack decides it's dte's day to die, my having a gun will be irrelevant, just as you say. He'll skip the trial which might determine my guilt or innocence, issue an executive order that's immune to congressional oversight (and how sad is it when we're reduced to hoping for those clowns to do oversight?) and send in an unmanned drone and that will be that. They might find a gun on my charred corpse. OTOH, if the National Guard is doing a sweep of East Bumfuck, Indiana, rounding up stubborn conservatives, they just might skip a house where there's armed resistance and take the peaceful bible thumpers next door. That's probably long odds, but at that point, frayed threads will be all we've got anyway so any glimmer of (probably false) hope will be worth something.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 16th, 2013, 15:21
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Wow, dte, you seem to really have a penchant for ignoring any posts that actually refute what you're saying.

I am giving you an A+ for that. Everything else though is you claiming we're on high horses.

You've again ignored two of my posts and have quite comfortingly for you ignored all the of the statistics Jemy brought to your attention.
Your link is broken, jackass. As you might notice, you're not the only person that I've got to deal with here, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't give you prompt personal attention. Theoretically, I'm supposed to be working now anyway. Gawd, go cuddle yer binky and give me a moment or two.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 16th, 2013, 15:26
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I'm not sure what you're trying to say - but the difference between myself and the people who take pride in their nation, is that I don't take pride in my nation.

I recognise that we're all human and subject to a whole lot of nasty shit, and if my nation had been the most powerful in the world - it would be just as corrupt and pathetically distasteful as yours is. It's the nature of power and human beings when mixed.

So, how about being a bit of a grown-up and stop being proud of corruption, greed and incompetence?
What exactly should we be proud of, oh profound giver of oracular wisdom? You've clearly got what you think is a better answer. Of course, we both know that you've admitted yourself that your grand plan with its philosophical paradigm shifts is hundreds of years from having the slightest hope of being even remotely viable, so in many ways that puts you on par with the folks that are waiting for the aliens to come take us to a better world. By all means, I cede the floor.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 16th, 2013, 15:41
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Your link is broken, jackass. As you might notice, you're not the only person that I've got to deal with here, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't give you prompt personal attention. Theoretically, I'm supposed to be working now anyway. Gawd, go cuddle yer binky and give me a moment or two.
Well, yeah personal attacks are also a good way of debating, ain't they…

Except for the fact that Jemy's stats have been posted since yesterday and you seemed to have enough time to respond to everything else and pretend that Chicago is the one valuable piece of data and you've ignored my posts before, so that it was quite safe for me to assume you've done it yet again and….

If you don't want to post from work then don't, but saying things that are simply untrue and then ignoring stats posted earlier because they're convenient for you, doesn't automatically make me a jackass. You might want to look in the mirror.
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January 16th, 2013, 15:55
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
OK. So what in there makes your opinion globally applicable? What makes GBG's opinion (and it's not just you, we could put lots of names behind the exact same sentiment) more important than dte's or Sammy's or bn's choice? That only relevant data point says that taking away guns didn't solve anything and the laws of the land are extremely clear protecting that choice. So what gives you the right to take away my choice? Because you "think so"? "The greater good" that somehow didn't benefit in Chicago? Please.
huh? That post seems completely unrelated to what I wrote. I was voicing a specific opinion regarding certain situations involving guns. It was not a political post or adressing the wider issue at all.

To neverthelss address your point - of course *I* don't have any rights to take anything away from you. I am voicing an opinion (not so much in the post you replied to, but in others) in a debate. I think a majority decision in your own country certainly does have the right to take things away from you, should it ever come to that.

Maybe a subtext of your message is why am I (a foreigner) even interested or feeling entitled to have an opinion? Although insubstantial for an internet debate, I will give you an answre: For very general, fundamental reasons for one, because the (to me at least) illogical arguments of the pro gun lobby irk me.
That would be enough actually, but I have other personal reasons too. I lived in the US long enough to become interested in its politics for more reason than it just being the superpower #1. My daughter is born there, is hence an american citizen, and may well choose to study or live there one day. My brother lives in the US permanently. So I take an interest.

Now explain me one thing: we have seen many figures here with many datapoints. Why is the only "relevant one" according to you, the one specific one that supports your view?

Anyway I don't know the situation with Chicago well enough (a quick goolge tells me its a ban on automatic guns and concealed carriage?), but to be able to judge wheteher it really supports you position (considering that a lot of other data does not). I would need to know a number of things, like has it really led to a lower number of guns in posession (google fu tells me its still over 20% in IL?) , is the law effective (considering its one city/state in the US, without real border control), how have poverty, overall crime rates, etc. changed in the period you refer to, are there other cases that can be compared (because a single case can't be very convincing overall in any case) etc.
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January 16th, 2013, 16:44
Here is happy ending for you xSamhainx: as it turns out, there was Sandy Hook shootings was a government/media conspiracy to take your guns away. Tenured professor of Florida Atlantic University said so, so it must be true: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/0…ever-happened/
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January 16th, 2013, 19:41
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
What exactly should we be proud of, oh profound giver of oracular wisdom? You've clearly got what you think is a better answer. Of course, we both know that you've admitted yourself that your grand plan with its philosophical paradigm shifts is hundreds of years from having the slightest hope of being even remotely viable, so in many ways that puts you on par with the folks that are waiting for the aliens to come take us to a better world. By all means, I cede the floor.
What do you mean what should you be proud of? Do you have a pride-compulsion or something? If so, then I understand your need to apply it even when it makes no sense.

I can't tell you how to feel about things - I'm just making a suggestion. If you're proud of your nation, then it seems to conflict with the insane paranoia about the government coming after you.

Note I'm not talking about YOU necessarily - but the people who feel that way.

It's pretty plain from your method of debate that you ignore everything that is a direct reply to your points - and just pretend people haven't adressed the same criticisms over and over.

It's like you think you can create a reality where you haven't been refuted time and time again, but the problem is that it's not a reality - but a fantasy for you and you alone.

Pladio and Jemy have been repeating themselves a dozen times over - and you STILL pretend they haven't said what they've very clearly said.

What a sad way to hold a position.
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January 16th, 2013, 21:09
this thread is a prime example that many americans think that why this country is great and how it came to be is through jingoism, violence and the subtraction of its parts being greater than the whole. fortunately the contrary is true and if it may take another civil war driven by a culture of fear (and not solutions) , which people should realize the gun, military and prizon complexes don't care if they are arming you or the goverment its simple brinksmanship drive by fear, and the illusion of comfort.

—-when we figure out how to build guillotines for corporations the new revolution will have begun—-
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January 18th, 2013, 03:49
Lest my detractors think I've abandoned the battlefield, let's take a look at all this so-called evidence y'all are so proud of. I've got to admit that when y'all got into such vigorous beard stroking and touchdown dancing over a broken link, it was pretty clear to me how much y'all were really paying attention. Anyhoo…
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
The objective evidence show that the states have an unusual amount of rampage killers and firearm murders compared to other western nations.
There's zero context for this supposed slam dunk. Is that for the last 2 weeks or the last 2 centuries? Since y'all love to use the invalid comparison of Europe, what might such a map look like, assuming we had the slightest clue what this one really meant. Really, folks, this is completely meaningless.
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Yet another pretty picture with no context. All it says is gun deaths. Aside from the complete lack of time frame, what does it count as a gun death? If I shoot myself, that's a gun death. Does it count? If the police shoot a dangerous criminal, that's a gun death. Does it count? If Sammy shoots a home invader, that's a gun death. Does it count? I mean, what we've got here is another completely worthless picture. I'm supposed to be impressed?
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Seriously? That's a wonderful bar graph. Not even a title. No axis legend. Nothing. I'm going to guess that it's average penis length. This is your evidence that you're so proud of? Seriously? Y'all should be embarassed. It does tie in nicely with your grande finale—I sure as shit can't explain this one.
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
This is terribly misplaced. It proves exactly nothing about the subject at hand. I'm sure it looked quite impressive in the textbook, though.
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Once again, we've got a beautiful scatter plot with exactly zero context. What qualifies as a firearm death? Without a proper definition, this proves exactly squat.
It would be interesting to see what the actual correlation coefficient on that data is. I'm guessing no better than 0.5.
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Are they legal?
You finally got a good one. However, all this says is that our legal screening isn't getting the job done. Now, I wouldn't be surprised that y'all would just throw up your hands and go straight for a ban, but wouldn't it make sense to work with the existing laws rather than pull out a ban that doesn't work?

Now, to address one other point—my reliance on Chicago data above all the other supposed proof like the garbage above:
The hypothesis is that gun control applied in the US will reduce gun violence. That's from y'all. I'd prefer not to drag out quotes, but they're there if y'all insist on being asses about that part. So, the only true proof of the point would be a situation where gun control is applied in the US. All other evidence can be considered, yes, but there is only one true proof of your point. That's basic logic. Because gun control in the US (at least, gun control as y'all are advocating) is basically unconstitutional, we don't have many applicable data points, nor will we have many any time soon. As such, we've got to give special consideration to the only data point that actually deals with your hypothesis. All the Euro bullshit need not apply folks, because that's not your hypothesis. Clear enough?

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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January 18th, 2013, 09:51
No, gun control won't necessarily reduce gun violence significantly. That depends on implementation and how it's enforced.

However, fewer guns on the street WILL reduce gun violence.

I know you like people to repeat themselves over and over - and yet ignore them.

Like you're doing now by being a fool and talking about proof all over again. We're not talking about objective proof - because you can't prove anything like this with certainty. You can, however, use your brain as a human being - and recognise the excessively obvious support for this concept of fewer guns = fewer gun related incidents. That's basic logic using a series of facts as the proof you're looking for.

So, yeah, you're being very clearly a fool - that's clear enough.
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January 18th, 2013, 15:20
OK, so you bitch that I ignore your proof. When I pretty well shoot all that supposed proof in the ass, you say that proof doesn't matter because gut feel is good enough. And I'm the fool. This is pointless.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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