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Default why anyone wants an "assault rifle"

January 14th, 2013, 13:03
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
But you're more than happy to simplify the problem to being the easy access of guns. Is the problem poverty, or guns? If it's guns, then why didn't the ban solve anything, as y'all claim it will? If it's poverty, then why are you going after the guns? And before you tell me it's both and that it's just so damn complicated, then why are you only up in arms about one aspect and only attempting to deal with one aspect? Y'all make the problem sound pretty simple when you're trying to grab the guns.
A society that apply social sciences to reduce bad statistics tend to do both. It's possible that a great rise in taxes to pay strong social programs would allow for a great reduction in firearm murders but I have yet to see someone who are pro-firearms voicing a such solution.

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January 15th, 2013, 02:02
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
A society that apply social sciences to reduce bad statistics tend to do both. It's possible that a great rise in taxes to pay strong social programs would allow for a great reduction in firearm murders but I have yet to see someone who are pro-firearms voicing a such solution.
Probably because we have a pretty good idea of how poorly such a scheme would work if enacted by the US Government. Trust me, it doesn't matter how solid, proven, or flawless an idea is, Uncle Sam will turn it into a total pooch screw.
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January 15th, 2013, 12:00
Originally Posted by CrazyIrish View Post
Probably because we have a pretty good idea of how poorly such a scheme would work if enacted by the US Government. Trust me, it doesn't matter how solid, proven, or flawless an idea is, Uncle Sam will turn it into a total pooch screw.
Yes I know. I believe it's inevitable that the states will collapse within our lifetime. Uncertainty, low education and poverty are widespread. Strong polarization makes politics impossible. When China pass the states as an economy the rest of the world the states end up in the shadow which will be the spark that ignite the same pattern we have seen in failed states throughout the history. A civil war isn't unlikely. What state and what ideology rise from the ashes we do not know but it's unlikely to be democratic.

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January 22nd, 2013, 06:43
so this "democracy" is your ideal…how low is your expection in human aspriation! What's wrong with being autonomous? Where is your logic in "a great rise in taxes to pay strong social programs"? Gov knows what's best for you? You are delusional in the benevolence of centralized gov. "Strong polarization makes politics impossible"? Do you want people to abandon their own beliefs and submit to the central power and allow these demogogue to allocate resources?

It can't be all that bad.
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January 23rd, 2013, 16:05
Since y'all are so deeply interested in dragging Europe into the discussion, I wonder what you have to say about Switzerland? "Well, that's completely different!" right?

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January 23rd, 2013, 16:17
Ahhh you brought up Switzerland! Was it wise? Did you think it through dte?

Switzerland:
"Government statistics for the year 2010 records 40 homicides involving firearms, out of the 53 cases of homicide in 2010.
The annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population was 0.70. The annual rate of homicide by guns per 100,000 population was 0.52."

Switzerland is an example that there are societies who can be trusted to play nice with their toys. Yours isn't one of those.
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January 23rd, 2013, 16:32
In Switzerland while many individuals have government issued firearms they don't keep ammo at home. So yes, it *is* completely different.

"Each such individual is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG-Sauer P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home. Up until October 2007, a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued personal ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm) was issued as well, which was sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use had taken place. The ammunition was intended for use while traveling to the army barracks in case of invasion.

In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still have ammunition stored at home today."
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January 23rd, 2013, 16:51
I live there, so I can tell you about my perspective and do further reserach if you are interested.
Up front, there is a discussion here as well. There have been several family shootings and a few amok runs recently that have sparke a debate.
You are right that Switzerland has one of the most liberal weapon laws, which, simply put, grew out of its history of having an organized militia rather than a regular army. Similar to the US, there is also a strong pro-gun lobby here that has so far thwarted all attempts to create stricter regulations.

However, despite that, Switzerland weapons law does have restrictions regarding ownership, import and trade. As a citizen or resident you can legaly buy weapons but you have to get a permit which is similar to your background check. However, sports and hunting weapons are exempt from this, as are historic weapons. Recently there was a shooting with historic carbiners that came into possession of a person with a known history of mental problems that would have precluded him from getting a normal gun legally.
Weapons are also registered (however this is implemented very poorly, as each Kanton (country/state/region kinda thing) has it's own database, and they are not networked among each other or with the federal database.
Citizens of several states are prohibited from owning weapons.

Weapons may however not be carried in public without a special license, which is handled relatively restritive. There are also clear rules with regards to storage.

A special factor are the "Ordonanzwaffen" - since the militrary is still organized as a militia, soldiers take their rifle home. They are also allowed to keep it (with modifications turning it from automated to semiautomatic afaik) relatively cheaply after active service. This is a big factor in the high weapons ownership statistics of switzerland, and one reason, imho, why Switzerland has such high weapon ownership inspite of having much less of a gun culture than the US. Ther have been many incidents of domestic violence turning lethal due to the availability of "Ordonanzwaffen" and some random shootings, hence regulations were made that allow (promote) storage of guns at the barracks, and stricter regulations regarding ammunition.

Regarding gun culture: What you won't see here vs. the US, is guns on sale in supermarkets and hardwarestores etc. (my experience in Georgia). You have to go to a gun dealer, and there actually aren't many of them. Overall there is a big difference in that the ownership of weapons here is not usually related to the idea of self defense. Its sport, hunting and militia weapons. That may be a factor why also crime is far less armed than in the US. Armed self defense is VERY rare here. Unfortunately some right wing lobby groups actually try to change that and promote an american gun culture (link (german): http://politblog.tagesanzeiger.ch/bl…ultur/?lang=de)

You are right that Switzeland is, inspite of incidents as noted above, quite a safe country. In addition to differences in gun culture there are many other factors - for one, Switzerland is one of the wealthiest nations and has a very low unemployment and poverty rate.

So what can you learn from the case of Switzerland? On one hand, yes, you can have high weapon ownership rates and liberal weapon laws and still enjoy relative safety - but only IF you keep a lot of other factors in the optimal range (gun culture, wealth, gun storage, carrying in public, control of perceived "risk groups", etc., etc.). And even here ease of access has made several tragedies possible.
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January 23rd, 2013, 21:17
Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan View Post
So what can you learn from the case of Switzerland? On one hand, yes, you can have high weapon ownership rates and liberal weapon laws and still enjoy relative safety - but only IF you keep a lot of other factors in the optimal range (gun culture, wealth, gun storage, carrying in public, control of perceived "risk groups", etc., etc.). And even here ease of access has made several tragedies possible.
Thank you for your perspective. I believe what this shows is that gun control is NOT the critical factor that many like to advertise. In fact, just as I've said many, many times, the problem is more one of culture than of gun availability and going after the guns is simply not addressing the actual problem. Factor in the price to be paid in pissing on the Constitution, and it's a misplaced, lazy answer with little hope of real benefit.

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January 23rd, 2013, 21:18
Originally Posted by BillSeurer View Post
In Switzerland while many individuals have government issued firearms they don't keep ammo at home. So yes, it *is* completely different.

"Each such individual is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG-Sauer P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home. Up until October 2007, a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued personal ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm) was issued as well, which was sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use had taken place. The ammunition was intended for use while traveling to the army barracks in case of invasion.

In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still have ammunition stored at home today."
You read the wiki quite nicely. Are you going to claim that it's impossible to get ammo thru normal channels? Hint- the answer is in the wiki.

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January 23rd, 2013, 21:53
Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan View Post
Regarding gun culture: What you won't see here vs. the US, is guns on sale in supermarkets and hardwarestores etc. (my experience in Georgia).
When was this? I (an avid gun owner if you couldn't tell) have never seen guns for sale in a supermarket or hardware store. I have met a few individuals with an FFL (basically a dealers license) who operated out of their other, primary business but not displayed openly.
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January 23rd, 2013, 22:07
Walmart (which would include stores that sell groceries) and KMart both used to sell them. Neither one does anymore and both changed that policy several years ago.

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January 24th, 2013, 05:48
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Walmart (which would include stores that sell groceries) and KMart both used to sell them. Neither one does anymore and both changed that policy several years ago.
Didn't even think about Walmart. I suppose they might not be viewed as that much different from a regular supermarket by someone not from the US.
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January 24th, 2013, 09:22
Might have been Walmart. I was in the states between 2004 to 2006. Good to hear they changed that.
Dte, well, I agree and disagree. I think it has become clear in this thread, that most of us who are pro gun control acknowledge that there are other important factors. Poverty has been discussed repeatedly. I think if it were easy to address poverty, we would all live in a better world, but if you want to enforce policy to combat poverty, you certainly have my blessing. I didn't get the impression that that is high on the republican agenda, but it's certainly an argument that can be made.

That does not mean that gun ownership is not a factor. I think if you look at the data that has been presented, it is very hard to argue otherwise. I haven't head time to reply to your refection of the data, but I find it unconvincing. Primarily I think gun death really is the right parameter to look at. Accidents, even killing a burglar in your house are a part of the problem, not just murders, and not just mass shootings. The latter are just especially worrisome symptoms. But if I hear that the NRA and some of you here still spin the yarn that the answer should be MORE guns, I am sorry I have to scratch my head. With the gun culture you have, and social problems you country has, that is just wrong.

And I think you have to admit that gun ownership and gun culture go hand in hand in your country - I mean it's the culture that makes you and Samhain and the crazy Irish person argue against controls isn't it?
I don't think I would find people like you guys on a Swiss gaming forum. So should we rather ask for legislation to brainwash all gun owners?
Addressing gun ownership ( I am not arguing for a total ban, but for strict regulation, registration and enforcement, and bans on weaponst that are particularly dangerous and nonsensical in private hands like semi-automatic rifeles etc., and strict limitations on gun carrying and clear rules on gun storage, with an actual effort to enforce them). If you absolutely need to keep a weapons cache for the coming Zombie apocalypse, you have my blessing, but keep them in a safe until the time comes. If you feel you need to be ready for the coming civil war, join the national guard (a well armed militia is what I believe the 2nd amendment is meant to protect).
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January 25th, 2013, 12:11
As a source of information this may be interesting:
Be aware it's a crowdsourced effort and necessarily incomplete, as they state themselves.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a…_shooting.html
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January 26th, 2013, 17:57
GBG, I would not post that map if I were you. Just look at CA, one with the toughest gun law vs. laxed NV and AZ, gun related death comparison tells you exactly the opposite of what you FEEL is true. What's the point of lumping justified defensive kills vs murdered together? so you can conclude guns kill people?

Who is doing the regulation, registration, enforcement? your dearest trusted govs or UN? Gun controllers advocate using the violence of gov apparatus to violate natural rights of peaceful gun owers. So don't ever tell me they are for peace, but only advocates for centralized violence. You would have advocated elimination of guns from govs first if you were really care about gun death statistics.

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February 1st, 2013, 06:53
"Symbols are important. A citizen who has the right to keep and bear arms, even though he is not planning to join the state militia, which is in fact an arm of the federal government, understands that he possesses a degree of sovereignty that is not possessed by citizens in nations that prohibit widespread firearm ownership. He understands that he is in a unique situation. He still has the fundamental marks of political sovereignty, namely, firearms. His firearms testify to the fact that the central government does not yet feel sufficiently confident to confiscate his firearms in the name of the central government's exclusive monopoly of violence. His firearms testify to the fact that he is still a citizen, and that he still possesses rights that politicians and bureaucrats cannot legally overturn."

"Firearms are marks of political sovereignty. They should be defended on this basis, not on the basis of some hypothetical revolution, which is not going to take place. I am saying that such a revolution is not necessary, precisely because the people do possess the right to keep and bear arms. They need not take up arms against the government, precisely because they already possess the arms." - Gary North
http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1258.html

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February 11th, 2013, 19:54
Interesting tidbit I came across in an unrelated article:

As the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service pointed out in a November 2012 report, “Existing data do not show whether the number of people shot and killed with semiautomatic assault weapons declined during the 10-year period (1994-2004) that those firearms were banned from further proliferation in the United States.”
But why let relevant real-world experience get in the way of a nice crusade, right?

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February 11th, 2013, 21:04
Anderson, C.A., Benjamin, A.J., & Bartholow, B.D. (1998). Does the gun pull the trigger? Automatic priming effects of weapon pictures and weapon names. Psychological Science, 9, 308-314.
http://onlinestatbook.com/case_studi…uns/index.html

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February 14th, 2013, 16:44
Perhaps a little history would be in order. You can even find this stuff in textbooks!
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