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Default Why is there no challenger for Skyrim?

December 23rd, 2012, 03:47
Originally Posted by xSamhainx View Post
Well that was one long, and well-thought out post. It got a little chaotic and incoherant there at the end tho.

That said, I disagree with the entire thing. Except for the part about the 6 warhammers, I agree that the concept of carrying around a small warehouse of inventory in your pockets is ridiculous. However, i find that in practice when do I encounter a game that limits my inventory to a very small and "realistic" amount, I end up hating it way more.
I enjoy some realism … I have a lot of mods for Skyrim to increase graphic, sound, and immersive realism. However some of them I got rid of even though I thought they were cool.

One was "realistic" lighting. Being in a cave when its really dark was spooky and far more realistic than tons of bright light. However after just an hour the novelty wore of and I was just becoming increasingly frustrated getting lost and trying to get around. For me the realism wasn't much fun. Luckily I found a compromise one that let me pick the brightness so I went with something more realistic that also didn't get me frustrated.

Inventory is the same way. Hate how stupid it is to have 10 pairs of full elven armor in my … backpack? which is where? But fun wise only being able to loot what you might fit in a real backpack or sack … for me that just doesn't bring any real extra fun to the game.

Everyone has their balance point between wanting realism versus what gets them frustrated. One reason I love PC games that you can mod - everyone can fine tune things to the way they like it.

Character is centrality, the impossibility of being displaced or overset. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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December 23rd, 2012, 19:49
Originally Posted by xSamhainx View Post
Well that was one long, and well-thought out post. It got a little chaotic and incoherant there at the end tho.

That said, I disagree with the entire thing. Except for the part about the 6 warhammers, I agree that the concept of carrying around a small warehouse of inventory in your pockets is ridiculous. However, i find that in practice when do I encounter a game that limits my inventory to a very small and "realistic" amount, I end up hating it way more.


More times than not, im out of my head when I post on here, I only hope readers can pick up on my underlying message. But today…oh today, im on fire

Listen, the only reason you hate any other games' rendition of realism is because its half-assed. Limiting your inventory space to a realistic amount is only going to please players if its accompanied with the other proper features, like bags for exmaple? Small bags, big bags, and that, along with your carrying strength, would determine what you can carry. How about one small move to allow players with the intention of treasure hunting to summon a party, WITH the intention of moving loot? I know Skyrim lets you use your one companion as a pack mule, but again, im having to roleplay with that, its not enough. Streamline it, make it a thing, and then twist it and add story elements. What if the crew you hired ends up robbing you dry and leaving you wounded in the cave. Hell, what if the cave caves in? Find another way around, possibly a brand new way, maybe find something much bigger than the treasure you came for.

Excellent perspective Wolfgrim, and it supports my point beautifully: Half-assing realism is making your game more like real life (which isnt always as fun as a videogame), making it harder for the players obviously, but granting no reward for that. What I mean is, if you played a game with realistically dark caves, like you couldnt see sh*t without a torch, but theres no point to that darkness, then it will only frustrate players. However, with the potentially annoying black caves, you riddle them with scary creatures and creepy noises; you give them an scary idea of what could be in that darkness.
Imagine, its a pitch black cave, you light your torch and the first thing you see is a snarling cave troll in your face, or you spot something scurry off into the dark. Add that mystery and all of sudden players arent frustrated anymore, theyre scared, theyre immersed, and theyre as creeped out to go further into that cave just like theyre character would be. Exactly why is because the frustration only comes from the dark getting in the way of what your trying to do, which is probably get to the end of the cave, collect all the items, slay the strongest monster (guarantee he'll be waiting, at the very end) and then rinse and repeat ya know?
But if you get pulled in the right way, your no longer there just for the quest, or for the loot, your there to survive and experience.

But its the same deal with the inventory, I dont want to play a game where I can only hold a few things but it has no offset, no benefit. You make those items worth a lot more, you make them much cooler and unique. Unique to the player AND the world. Its a whole thing about deciding what your going to do, and doing it 100 percent. Not half-assed. Or yes, players dont buy your attempt at realism and bam, your game sucks.

Disagree with the entire thing? Its so like an internet guy to make his point and then trump someones elses in the same breath. If you disagree with the entire thing then tell me, do you disagree with cool ideas? Do you disagree with dynamic features, do you disagree with immersive experiences?
If so, then you sir, are not my target audience.
Its fine though, its probably hard to wrap your head around all that

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Last edited by TheWharfMaster; December 23rd, 2012 at 20:00.
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December 23rd, 2012, 20:20
I think the problem is that there are too few customers to get a AAA game company to make a super hardcore realistic game like this. Conceptually I'm totally in the camp of limiting inventory and bulkiness should count for something but on the other hand it can be a pain when you don't have adequate support infrastructure like say horse inventory so your steed can store the stuff you want to keep. In skyrim I tend to take my 2 daggers and 2 sets of armor (1 for style, 1 for actual use) but have to take a ton of potions which I rationalize as magic aspirin pills and have my horse care the rest (but have to use a horse after all).

The rise of quality cheap game engines like Unity will facilitate Indies to make this kind of game. The next problem being that an open world RPG would be a terrible first game for a new developer to make since scope is too huge. Just look at what what Jay went through with Frayed Knights and that was not trying to be realistic.

I think the beauty of Skyrim is in part the modding system. Don't like the core game well you have some flexibility in making your own realism mod for it that does what you want. Its very limited but compared to writing your own game it is very flexible. I love the Duke Patrick's mod did for combat because it changes combat to be far more realistic and difficult as you cant just strafe and swing what not.
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December 23rd, 2012, 22:16
TheWharfMaster -

I disagree about your exploration complaint. For me, exploration is simply finding a ruin, or enemy encampment, or remains of something w/ a cryptic message. It's a string of experiences. It's running around a virtual environment, feeling like I'm there. It doesnt have to conclude with "finding" something grand or epic. It doesnt have to have a "point". Sometimes the greatest explorations are simply the immersion into the mundane, the non-spectacular that make something feel 'realistic'. That's what I'm looking for when I am exploring the worlds of these "bum games", as you call them.

If you "cannot stand" the concept of looting a dungeon, then youre not playing the right kind of game. That's like saying you cannot stand the concept of building/conquering in a traditional real time strategy game.

You can acquire money if you hoard and sell items, and the extent to which you take part in this sort of mercantile simulation is completely up to you. Some like to roleplay a thief that steals everything that isnt nailed down, some are content to simply use their quest rewards and valuables they may find. Some like hauling around silverware and shit, and that may be what you need to do at first. I think it's a minigame in itself, figuring out what's worth it's space in your pack as opposed to something else. It's totally up to you, if you want to be a junk hauler go ahead, if not then dont. Having that choice is a good thing, depending on your playstyle. Ive found there's plenty of things to spend money on, in my experience, as someone in the latter category I've found myself wanting for money. Like most games, yes you can become insanely rich eventually, but again that's up to you and how you wish to play.

I disagree that the taverns and locations have no interesting characters (not even one?), but that's a matter of opinion. If youre looking for a gravelly voiced Snake Plisskin, youre looking for Snake Plisskin, and youre not going to be satisfied w/ what you find otherwise.

Why arent there meaningful "magical items" like a named, sentient sword, all over the place in the game? Why are we risking our asses time and time again, for trinkets? Where's the "real" magical treasure? Well the truth of the matter is that there are several such named artifacts in the game. I guess youre lamenting the fact you dont just stumble upon them around every corner. Such things were supposed to be rare, or they mean nothing. Your wish to have them do "several different things" is interesting, to have a super-item as treasure is ambitious. Maybe you should contact Bethsoft w/ this revolutionary idea, as of now they end up in games being unique end-game items you dont just come upon in everyday questing.

Quality is a relative term. Some people think that a lot of time spent and expansive areas is the way to go, thus you see people agonizing over "how much game time a DLC offers" before purchase. Some people would prefer a shorter game, a smaller world w/ more concentration of content. Me personally, i take more content and expansive spaces to explore. They have to strike a balance between the two, and I can see how that would be a struggle. I think they do a good job for the most part.

Now when you start talking about Oblivion having better flavor, to Skyrim being a better game - that's when you start losing lucidity. On one hand, you seem to be arguing against generality, against the generic, now all of a sudden youre praising the "general" nature of Oblivion. I dont know what youre getting at, but i must say that i consider Skyrim the better game.

I disagree on the lore, I've always loved the lore of the ES games and continuity throughout the entire series. Exploring the culture and religions of the different races and factions in the game is one of the best things about the games. I have the "books of skyrim" on my Iphone, so I can read them if bored, standing in line somwhere. So i must disagree w/ you, I think the lore of the games are top-notch.

You have a problem w/ the beast races mixed in w/ the rest, again i must disagree as i think it adds to the flavor of the population. It allows players to take part in the struggles of these groups to integrate with human society. So you just want humans? I think that's fucking boring, and I'll bet that most people would rather have a diverse population to interact and play with, then simply being stuck w/ humans.

Then you start ranting and raving on a half-baked screed about a nation of cat-folk if we want (even tho it's not "cool enough"), and making a broad appeal and general game that everyone will love (which i thought you said was a good thing before?) or a more specialist hard-core game that will make less money but be more… hard core. I dont know. I know what youre getting at, but it's incoherant at best.

There, happy?

PS: Dont expect me to go back and forth with you on this in multiple, moronically long-winded posts. I'd rather play games than sit here beating a dead horse, trying to convince you that my opinion of what's 'good' is correct.
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December 24th, 2012, 00:10
Dude, im not here to fight. Ill admit that my posts, despite being an overload of ideas and concepts, come off contradictory and jumbled, but its only because im trying to communicate so much.

And ill tell you, theres always somebody like you who has to defend their point to the death, yet you dont see a single point of mine, you want to focus on everything that's wrong with my post, you jerk. Ill just go ahead and respond to every dumb thing you typed:

You mistook everything I said about exploration, I didnt limit it to finding things, or having grand encounters everywhere you go, thats ridiculous, I would just like if the mundane wasnt so lifeless, thats all.
I understand the concept of looting a dungeon more than you could even know, what I was getting at (and what you missed) is the way that ES lets you loot dungeons. I think its lamely unrealistic and easy.

I honestly dont know where you get this idea that I want awesome items around every corner, thats exactly what I dont want. If youd read with your eyes open, then youd see that my focus is quality BEFORE quantity. The problem with Skyrim is you end up with a warehouse full of random, magic items.

Im sorry but calling the lore top-notch just flushes any potential respect I had for you down the toilet. Have you ever seen, heard or made anything cool? Thats an honest question.

I said nothing about an all human fantasy world. A lot of people like the beast races, thats cool, I never liked them, and thats cool too. When I made my own I decided that orcs and lizards were going to be, ya know, monsters, not playable races. It doesnt mean they dont have their own societies and cultures, and they arent cool as hell. Actually, theyre cool as hell because theyre where they belong.

And yeah, thats real cool to totally deflate my last argument, you know dude, if your having a problem understanding my text, we can work on it, but if your going to be an asshole than we can just leave it at that, and no I have no interest in furthering this argument, go play your lame games.

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December 24th, 2012, 01:17
I want to say though, I didnt come here just to rant about Bethesda's games, and im sorry for cluttering the site with nothing but.

And Samhain, ill admit my response to your response was a little standoff-ish, but only because I took what you said, about disagreeing with nearly my entire post, as you writing off any and every one of my ideas, rather than entertaining and respecting them. I take a little blame for that, because of how one-sided my posts seem to be, so as a die-hard fan, of course you would combat me.
But ya know, my posts Are kind of one-sided. I feel strongly about all of this stuff. I guess I see it as Bethesdas' responsibility to make the best game they can, I mean theyre one of the only companies today with the means to make such huge, grand games, I just wish they'd take it in a different direction. I wish their focus was on other elements, or I just wish a different company would rise up, they would likely have a different approach, considering theyd be different people.

I dont know, but from now on ill try and make my posts less one-sided. I have nothing bad to say to any fan of the Elder Scrolls, just that im not a fan, and thats no biggie.
Samhain, if your a cool guy and want to be friends, then we can do so. So long as you take back what you said, knowing now more about my approach lol
You didnt really say anything other than that you disagree and I kind of jumped on you for it so, I can almost understand you assholing out at me, so im sorry.

Happy holidays, I hope everyone has a good one

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December 24th, 2012, 01:36
Friends? Are you fckn kidding me ? You come here and slam mine, as a Bethesda Fanboy's favorite games of all time - if I was emperor you'd have been executed by sundown!!

I'm just kidding. I extend my claw to you in truce, Wharfmaster. I'm not that bad of a guy, actually. Just dont start talking crap about the Spellforce games, and we'll be cool
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December 24th, 2012, 13:38
Ahh haha, good, glad we levelled the field a bit
I would accept this truce. Its funny too, when I took a shot at the Khajiits I shouldve realized that you were a tiger lord, how dare I question your noble whiskers lol

So whats Spellforce? Let me know so I can prepare the rant.
Just playing o' course

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February 6th, 2013, 08:05
It's such a huge game and engine that it takes lots of man hours and investment to make. I think someone mentioned something like this before.
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