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RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Grimoire - More Incentive for Cleve

Default Grimoire - More Incentive for Cleve

February 21st, 2013, 18:37
And for the sake of fairness, I just am sick of news about crowdfunding getting abused. I treat news of big publishers using kickstarter with just as much cynicism. It's not Cleve, or his game that I'm expressing dissatisfaction with.

And for the record RPG Codex is fine by my book. Well the site. Individual users is another story. I kid, I kid.
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February 21st, 2013, 19:55
Originally Posted by talesfromthecrypt View Post
Maybe You guys could finally cut the butthurt out of your grimoire news posts and reserve your cynical tone for cases where it is actually warranted, like the newest biowhore games or 90 % of the shit you cover here? waaaah the game is buggy waaaah it will be never released waaaah cleve offended me with his political opinions…
true, the game is unstable on win 7 (for now) and yeah, it's highly doubtful that cleve will manage to release the full game in may HOWEVER judging by the demo grimoire looks more promising than anything that has been released or announced in the last decade or so.
The use of the word "butthurt" in your rant doesn't exactly help your credibility. Also, proper grammar and use of paragraphs are always appreciated. The reason that I like the RPGWatch site is that the people here can have differences of opinion without resulting in puerile insult matches. Not to mention the dearth of Nazi avatars and anti-Semitic bile. What the fuck is wrong with you people??!!

Personally, I don't respect Cleve one bit. He is an arrogant ass. However, all bias aside, he has done a god-awful job with the crowdfunding campaigns. Cleve doesn't seem to understand how accountability works in the real world. As a programming contractor myself, it is a mystery how such a person could possibly be successful in the industry.
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February 21st, 2013, 20:04
I don't see any problem with this. Near complete projects have been kickstarted before (FTL…). If it is near completion, keeping the funds isn't a problem because the reason kickstarters need to reach the goal to get any money is to ensure no one gets incomplete budgets that lead to no game being completed (and the budget is lost with nothing to show for it). There is no such issue here.

Grimrock took 4 guys ten years. That's 40 man years. So Cleve has repeatedly had the impression that there was light at the end of the tunnel, and was repeatedly mistaken. Well, I'm sure not throwing any stones. In the end if the scope of the game is what he says it is he was much more efficient nonetheless. Unless he's mistaken once more (that is the only real issue here).

Cleve would like a successful crowdfunding campaign to be reassured that there is demand for his product before investing six more months and x thousand more dollars into yet more art assets. That's just good business sense. when Fargo says it everyone agrees (including myself) so i agree with Cleve as well.

Sorry @Hellrazor I just figured out how I misread your post earlier.

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February 21st, 2013, 20:14
Originally Posted by jwmeep View Post
I think I have a right to be cynical about the new post, thank very much. Reasons why: 1. This isn't his first crowdfunding attempt it's the second. 2. The crowdfunding isn't to fund the game, it's to give him the desire to actually finish. 3. The ten thousand he got from the last crowdfunding attempt apparently isn't enough to make him want to finish the game. 4. Since he's using Indie Gogo, he keeps all the money even if it doesn't hit goal. He kept every single dime from the first attempt.
You sir, are grossly misinformed.

1. See point 3
2. The crowdfunding campaign is to (a) give Cleve at least a little recompansation for all the money he has put into the game over the years (b) finance improvements that Cleve wants to make to the game, some of which (notably the higher resolution and bigger game window) are finished as proven by the demo

3. That's simply not true. Cleve has stated multiple times that he is determined to finish the game and fullfill all pledges, no matter whether the funding goal is reached or not. When he started his first campaign, Cleve gave his guarantee to all backers that he will deliver the game, the second campaign is just to earn some extra funds and has no influence on whether the game will be finished.

4. So what? The man guaranteed that the game will be finished and that all pledgers will receive their pledge rewards, no matter whether he reaches the funding goal or not. So of what importance is it to you whether he gets 250 or 10k out of his campaign?

And lastly. You're calling Grimoire a parody of a kickstarter project, which is pretty baffling. Most kickstarters have little to show except for some concept art and some story ideas that often look like they have been written down on a piece of paper during the last coffee brake.

In contrast, Grimoire is almost finished, has a working demo, a beta scheduled for release soon and a guarantee from its maker that he will finish the game no matter how much money he raises. So uh…care to explain how that is worse than any other kickstarter project?
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February 21st, 2013, 20:19
However, you can't run a successful crowdfunding campaign when you have absolutely NO business sense. Would a good businessman:

(1) Insult 99% of the people on the internet
(2) Set a ridiculous crowd-funding objective
(3) Miss multiple self-imposed deadlines
(4) Perform no testing on the operating system used by >50% of PC users (after claiming to have slain the "64 bit bug")
(5) Blame Windows 7 for his inability to test his code in multiple O/S environments
(6) Assume no responsibility for his actions

Have the successful kickstarters been run this way? With Cleve, it's a Catch-22. He can't change his nature.
Last edited by gozioso; February 21st, 2013 at 21:45.
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February 21st, 2013, 20:22
Originally Posted by talesfromthecrypt View Post
In contrast, Grimoire is almost finished, has a working demo, a beta scheduled for release soon and a guarantee from its maker that he will finish the game no matter how much money he raises. So uh…care to explain how that is worse than any other kickstarter project?
Because this is like the 906th time that "Grimoire is almost finished, has a working demo, a beta scheduled for release soon and a guarantee from its maker that he will finish the game" been true according to Cleve.
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February 21st, 2013, 20:26
Except that during the last 17 years it was a hobby project, Cleve had no obligation to anyone to actually finish the game. You guys keep forgetting that.
The situation is completely different now since he has people who paid for the game and are expecting results. Now, you can call Cleve many things, but I don't think he is a scammer.
Will the game be finished until May? Hell no. Will it be released within a reasonable timeframe (say within 3-4 months after the promised release date)? I bet on it.
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February 21st, 2013, 20:30
Originally Posted by talesfromthecrypt View Post

3. That's simply not true. Cleve has stated multiple times that he is determined to finish the game and fullfill all pledges, no matter whether the funding goal is reached or not. When he started his first campaign, Cleve gave his guarantee to all backers that he will deliver the game, the second campaign is just to earn some extra funds and has no influence on whether the game will be finished.

4. So what? The man guaranteed that the game will be finished and that all pledgers will receive their pledge rewards, no matter whether he reaches the funding goal or not. So of what importance is it to you whether he gets 250 or 10k out of his campaign?

In contrast, Grimoire is almost finished, has a working demo, a beta scheduled for release soon and a guarantee from its maker that he will finish the game no matter how much money he raises. So uh…care to explain how that is worse than any other kickstarter project?
Are you living on Earth? Cleve has "stated" a lot of things throughout the years. How many times have these things been lies? His word is not worth shit. That is the point.

As for the "working" demo, the use of the term "working" is a bit of an overstatement. If I release some code that I claim works flawlessly, and people have massive issues with it, then what effect do you think that has on trust? It's all about trust. If I don't earn your trust, then I can't expect you to back my campaign. The burden of proof is on him to prove that he is trustworthy. How trustworthy has he been thus far? End of story.
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February 21st, 2013, 20:32
Originally Posted by BillSeurer View Post
Because this is like the 906th time that "Grimoire is almost finished, has a working demo, a beta scheduled for release soon and a guarantee from its maker that he will finish the game" been true according to Cleve.
He could have released multiple versions and patched the game x times since (new ideas, feedback…) but decided otherwise. My experience tells me he was right.

About him insulting 99% of the internet that's a bit of an exageration. He arguably overreacts to criticism but that too is something you understand better when you've put yourself in a similar position.

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February 21st, 2013, 20:44
Well, Charles, if he is such a beloved internet persona, then why is he only posting on the Codex? No Grimoire interview circuit? Maybe…just maybe, he is reviled on all other gaming forums? Driven out with torches and pitchforks? That cesspool known as the Codex is the only place that will tolerate him (other than StormFront, perhaps).

Your attempts to defend him are comical. He brought this on himself. Karma is a bitch.
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February 21st, 2013, 21:47
Originally Posted by gozioso View Post
Well, Charles, if he is such a beloved internet persona, then why is he only posting on the Codex? No Grimoire interview circuit? Maybe…just maybe, he is reviled on all other gaming forums? Driven out with torches and pitchforks? That cesspool known as the Codex is the only place that will tolerate him (other than StormFront, perhaps).

Your attempts to defend him are comical. He brought this on himself. Karma is a bitch.
With all the histrionics, delays, marketing blunders and general nonsense it's easy to give this game a miss, but underneath the compatibility problems and stuff it actually shows the inklings of a good game with a lot of depth (and I do believe it might have 200+ maps!?), good writing… Have had more fun playing the demo for the last few days than with many other more mainstream released offerings. If the author wants to conduct a negative marketing campaign, fight the OS he intends to release on and generally shoot himself in the foot there isn't a lot that can be done about it. Maybe though things will work out. In any case it's an interesting try.
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February 21st, 2013, 21:54
That's a very reasonable position on the matter.
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February 21st, 2013, 23:29
Remember one other thing. Several people here at the Watch were beta testers for Cleve. I've finished the game twice, been to his bunker and interviewed him personally, supported him over several years on this and our previous site, and my reward was to be publicly attacked and insulted by him on this site. That is NOT the way to build a customer base for your game. It shows a complete lack of any professionalism IMO. Despite that, I have never attacked either him, or the game, which I think is excellent. I just choose to no longer have any part of this; once bitten, twice shy!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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February 22nd, 2013, 00:21
I pledged with 75$ for Grimoire and hope that we'll see the full game one day, because I'm a big Wizardry fan.

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February 22nd, 2013, 06:34
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
Remember one other thing. Several people here at the Watch were beta testers for Cleve. I've finished the game twice, been to his bunker and interviewed him personally, supported him over several years on this and our previous site, and my reward was to be publicly attacked and insulted by him on this site. That is NOT the way to build a customer base for your game. It shows a complete lack of any professionalism IMO. Despite that, I have never attacked either him, or the game, which I think is excellent. I just choose to no longer have any part of this; once bitten, twice shy!!
I must say that I respect your restraint. He gets under my skin, because he reminds me too much of the more arrogant developers that I've worked with throughout my career. However, I've never dealt with anyone at work who behaves quite as extreme as Cleve (they would be quickly fired).
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February 22nd, 2013, 08:53
This guy is a star.
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February 22nd, 2013, 09:01
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
Remember one other thing. Several people here at the Watch were beta testers for Cleve. I've finished the game twice, been to his bunker and interviewed him personally, supported him over several years on this and our previous site, and my reward was to be publicly attacked and insulted by him on this site. That is NOT the way to build a customer base for your game. It shows a complete lack of any professionalism IMO. Despite that, I have never attacked either him, or the game, which I think is excellent. I just choose to no longer have any part of this; once bitten, twice shy!!
To be fair, that incident took place in Politics & Religion, IIRC? Things that happen there have little to do with the professional relationship between a developer and a games journalist, IMHO. We all venture there at our own risk. That said, Cleve is Cleve and there are plenty of other examples of his, err.., special way to interact with his potential customers.

As for me, I'll wait for a full release before taking a longer look at the demo (fixing problems with win 7 64 would also be helpful) - A demo was already released many years ago after all, and hasn't brought the game any closer to realease back then. The brief look I had convinced me that there is a very complex old school RPG there, that there is good writing, and that I could live with the state of art and sound in the game. But it also showed that it still has severe compatibility problems that need to be resolved.
Normally that might be enough for me to support an indie dev and pledge. But for me at least, seeing the full game released is an absolute minimum requirement for considering a purchase (or pledge) in this specific case.
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February 22nd, 2013, 09:10
Originally Posted by talesfromthecrypt View Post
Except that during the last 17 years it was a hobby project, Cleve had no obligation to anyone to actually finish the game. You guys keep forgetting that.
The situation is completely different now since he has people who paid for the game and are expecting results. Now, you can call Cleve many things, but I don't think he is a scammer.
Would "unreliable lying nutter" work for you? Cleve has definitely worked hard to establish his reputation as one. I think Grimoire is more likely not to be released because he doesn't understand the meaning of the word "obligation." Obligations to pledgers hasn't stopped funded kickstarter projects to go down under before.
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February 22nd, 2013, 10:16
Originally Posted by talesfromthecrypt View Post
2. The crowdfunding campaign is to (a) give Cleve at least a little recompansation for all the money he has put into the game over the years
That's what you sell your product for.

While I like the general idea of this game I'm mostly (apart from the technical problems) concerned about balance. After all, that's key for replayability. With god knows how many stats and skills in a huge game, I doubt that Cleve got it all right (also considering bugs/ glitches in nearly every aspect of the mechanics). Look at the trouble modern companies like Obsidian go to to ensure balance in their products, and add to that that Cleve probably doesn't have a horde of beta testers, I think this game will mostly be an unbalanced mess, and I doubt that it has great storytelling to make up for that. So no $100 from me Cleve, sorry, though I might pick it up at a bargain price just for shits and giggles.
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February 22nd, 2013, 11:05
100 men pushing one single person in the corner? Certainly this person can hardly keep his polite attitude in such circumstainces. The joke is 17 year old. Isn't it time to talk about the game and what can we do to make it better instead of spending yet another year searching for weak spots in someone's personality?

By the way, is there any site where we can report Grimoire bugs?
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