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RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues - On Kickstarter

Default Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues - On Kickstarter

March 8th, 2013, 23:39
What I *want* is another Ultima IV / V / VI / VII / Underworld. But I don't know if even Garriott himself is capable of doing that.

As a long-time Ultima fan, I was quick to jump on the limited $25 tier. But if I'd actually been happy with anything Garriott has directly produced since Ultima VII part 2, I'd have gone in a lot higher. My contribution is the "I'll give you another chance" money.
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March 8th, 2013, 23:41
publishers are more than happy to fund it
What age of computer games are you living in exactly?

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March 9th, 2013, 00:09
Actually at the bottom of the kickstarter it says that this is a single player game with a multiplayer mode and is not an mmo. From what it looks like if you want a house in-game you will normally be taxed so you will need to keep paying on it out of your hard earned adventuring profits.

PS. This means that the whole social aspects are optional.
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March 9th, 2013, 00:15
I think I'd like to hear more before I jump in because there's nothing there that really reaches out to grab me yet and says, "play this!". Frankly, Torment just sounds more intriguing… apart from the weird elf-hatred fetish in the stretch goals.

I wonder if Freud would consider Elf bashing a form of misogyny? Hmm…
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March 9th, 2013, 00:17
I'll keep my eyes on this but not pledging at this time. It's a weird mix of single player and mmo that I'll have to understand better.

What I'd like to know is does the game have an actual ending? Because if it ends then it's possible to have an excellent narrative like ultimas iv - vii. But if it's just a bunch of isolated albeit well-crafted areas with their own stories, that's of less interest to me.

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March 9th, 2013, 00:46
Originally Posted by QuestLord View Post
What age of computer games are you living in exactly?
The modern one. Portalarium and the one thousand and one other online social development houses out there have absolutely no trouble getting publishers. All they do is mention buzzwords like microtransactions, online game etc etc and they have their funding. There are probably over 500 MMO's that look like this. Meanwhile single player games suffer and only ones the publishers touch are big franchises or ones based on existing IP/books/movies etc.

I hope I am wrong and the focus is on the single player aspects but the video certainly wasn't encouraging for me. It may be that future updates reveal more of the Ultima of old but I will hold my pledge till that happens.

For example, RG said that modern crpgs suffer from find and talk to all the marked npcs to progress - the video on KS showed the PC talking to NPCS that featured a dialog chain system i.e. "click" "click" "click" "accept or decline quest". Not exactly encouraging and how is this any different that the existing system he is describing. Why wouldn't they use a keyword system like U6+ and even UO used.

The other thing I have a problem with is the whole notion of "repeatable events". It kind of flys in the face of creating a decent single player narrative and is commonly associated with MMO's and "farming loot/exp", I could be wrong but it sounds very much like quest instances. If it just means every time you walk down a certain road there is a 50% chance you will be attacked by a group of bandits with an ogre I have no problem with it - that was common in U7. I would have a problem though if every time you talked to Batlin he sent you to paws to deliver a package.

Also, like MadGamer suggests, if the game doesn't have an conclusive ending that also is a game breaker. I don't a sandbox game like UO or the elder scrolls (to a lesser extent). Yes it should be open world and non linear but there should be a theme and overarching story that ties it all together. I want a game like U7 where you know what you have to do but not how to do it. Where you slowly discover the story over time and the threads all come together.

Favourite RPGs of all time: Wizardry 6, Ultima 7/7.2, Fallout2, Planescape Torment, Baldurs Gate 2+TOB, Jagged Alliance 2, Ravenloft: The stone prophet, Gothic 2, Realms of Arkania:Blade of destiny (not the HD version!!) and Secret of the Silver Blades.
Last edited by bjon045; March 9th, 2013 at 01:10.
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March 9th, 2013, 00:55
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
The modern one. Portalarium and the one thousand and one other online social development houses out there have absolutely no trouble getting publishers. All they do is mention buzzwords like microtransactions, online game etc etc and they have their funding. There are probably over 500 MMO's that look like this. Meanwhile single player games suffer and only ones the publishers touch are big franchises or ones based on existing IP/books/movies etc.

I hope I am wrong and the focus is on the single player aspects but the video certainly wasn't encouraging for me. It may be that future updates reveal more of the Ultima of old but I will hold my pledge till that happens.

For example, RG said that modern crpgs suffer from find and talk to all the marked npcs to progress - the video on KS showed the PC talking to NPCS that featured a dialog chain system i.e. "click" "click" "click" "accept or decline quest". Not exactly encouraging and how is this any different that the existing system he is describing. Why wouldn't they use a keyword system like U6+ and even UO used.
I don't get where you think they would get anyone to publish the game when even by the early videos it clearly is not a social game. I get that the developer generally makes social games but that doesn't make them exclusively that.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you were ok with obsidian getting funding? How is this any different?

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March 9th, 2013, 00:57
Richard Garriott is no ordinary man. He can easily be called father of cRPGs. He made the first commercial cRPG. Ultima 3 is the foundation of eastern RPGs today. He showed us what world interactivity and choices&consequences are with Ultima 4-5-6-7. Ultima Underworld games inspired Bethesda to have made Elder Scrolls series. He made the first TPS style action RPG with Ultima 9 that later inspired Piranha Bytes with Gothic. He determined the standards of MMORPGs with Ultima Online. With each Ultima game he drew the boundaries of this genre. So in theory he has his fingers on nearly every RPGs we are playing. We are talking about 30 years of experience here.

So I expect something unique and revolutionary from him. Although I admit KS information is a bit vague. Anyway we will wait and see.

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March 9th, 2013, 01:00
Originally Posted by Gokyabgu View Post
Richard Garriott is no ordinary man. He can easily be called father of cRPGs. He made the first commercial cRPG. Ultima 3 is the foundation of eastern RPGs today. He showed us what world interactivity and choices&consequences are with Ultima 4-5-6-7. Ultima Underworld games inspired Bethesda to have made Elder Scrolls series. He made the first TPS style action RPG with Ultima 9 that later inspired Piranha Bytes with Gothic. He determined the standards of MMORPGs with Ultima Online. With each Ultima game he drew the boundaries of this genre. So in theory he has his fingers on nearly every RPGs we are playing. We are talking about 30 years of experience here.

So I expect something unique and revolutionary from him. Although I admit KS information is a bit vague. Anyway we will wait and see.
OMG I'm not alone in this, if any games/dev make me excited about RPGs its him, my childhood was all about the ultimate games.

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March 9th, 2013, 01:32
I was right there with you guys, but then somebody posted this in the Kickstarter comments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIv3lJf_xhs

I backed this of course, but just barely…

I'm pretty sure that Garriott likes very different things about fantasy RPGs than I do. Maybe it wasn't always that way, but it is now.

I'm in as a token of respect to the father of CRPG's.

I was thinking…I think this almost wraps up all of the iconic CRPG series from my past getting a reboot on Kickstarter. What's missing?

Ah, just thought of one: Might & Magic. Any others?
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March 9th, 2013, 01:33
Check out the recording of the Ustream question / answer thing they just finished: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/portalarium
It clarifies a lot.

Key points I got from it:
- Multiplayer is totally optional - you can play the whole game singleplayer offline and there is an ending to the story. This isn't an MMO. You can interact with other people asynchronously (visiting a player crafter's shop) and synchronously (grouping with friends) only if you want to.
- Game artwork shown in the videos is placeholder. I suspect the game will look much better further on.
- No subscription. The only caveat to this is I think it will cost money (rent) to own houses. Unless you get one of the rent-free pledge levels in the Kickstarter.

I like what I've heard so far and look forward to seeing more details.
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March 9th, 2013, 02:05
The modern one. Portalarium and the one thousand and one other online social development houses out there have absolutely no trouble getting publishers.
ok. It's really hard to read the rest of that and take you serious. You might feel serious about what you are saying, but you're just not in reality on this with your 'facts'.

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March 9th, 2013, 02:43
Originally Posted by QuestLord View Post
ok. It's really hard to read the rest of that and take you serious. You might feel serious about what you are saying, but you're just not in reality on this with your 'facts'.
You do you realise it was not supposed to be a 'fact'. One thousand and one an obvious exaggeration - 1001 is a placeholder for 'a large number'. And just to get you up to speed on the 'facts' who do you think published their first and only game….. Zynga. Who do you think still runs and publishes UO - EA does. A quick google reveals more than 20 online rpgs in development - all with publishers. Now how many games like the Ultimas are in production?

You might want to be a bit more specific it what you have a problem with and learn how to actually discuss your point? Anyone can post a one liner that they think supposedly makes someone elses OPINION irrelevant but if you actually came up with a valid argument we might be able to have a discussion…

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Last edited by bjon045; March 9th, 2013 at 02:54.
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March 9th, 2013, 03:04
I am a developer with 25+ years in the business. I know very much about publishers, I would go out on a limb and say far more than you understand.

There has never been a time of less publisher interest and developers have been forced to take independent measures into their own hands more than ever before. All of the major publishers already have their fantasy series and most do not want a competitor of their own series. EA is the only one bold enough to do that with DragonAge but they in no way are going to strike another deal with Richard.

Richard himself told me that the real money is in dealing with the publishers. He would do this if he could. He had a deal with Zynga. I am not sure if you know what has happened to Zynga or the social game market in the last 2 years but it has basically tanked.

publishers are more than happy to fund it
This statement is just wrong my friend.

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March 9th, 2013, 03:15
So Garriot is trying to immitate Mount & Blade without the depth of combat, economic, social, historical, real time living world, environmental aspects of the Mount and Blade game! Hmm, that's novel!
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March 9th, 2013, 03:18
Originally Posted by SpoonFULL View Post
So Garriot is trying to immitate Mount & Blade without the depth of combat, economic, social, historical, real time living world, environmental aspects of the Mount and Blade game! Hmm, that's novel!
Yeah, I'm sure he is just going to copy them.

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March 9th, 2013, 03:19
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
Yeah, I'm sure he is just going to copy them.
He is trying and selling it as novelty, but he sure can't.
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March 9th, 2013, 03:21
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
You do you realise it was not supposed to be a 'fact'. One thousand and one an obvious exaggeration - 1001 is a placeholder for 'a large number'. And just to get you up to speed on the 'facts' who do you think published their first and only game….. Zynga. Who do you think still runs and publishes UO - EA does. A quick google reveals more than 20 online rpgs in development - all with publishers. Now how many games like the Ultimas are in production?

You might want to be a bit more specific it what you have a problem with and learn how to actually discuss your point? Anyone can post a one liner that they think supposedly makes someone elses OPINION irrelevant but if you actually came up with a valid argument we might be able to have a discussion…
Problem is, I did comment on what you wrote and why I thought you were wrong. You ignored that.

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March 9th, 2013, 03:25
Originally Posted by SpoonFULL View Post
He is trying and selling it as novelty, but he sure can't.
Wow, I'm not even sure where to start with this. He is not trying to copy mount and blade(not even sure how this is even relevant). He is trying to make the next version of the ultimas without actually owning the ip. For the record I barely see mount and blade as an rpg, more of a strategic medieval combat simulator.

Many of the ideas for the new game were in the older games, now just with modern tech being able to back them up. I think the potential for what he wants to do with the social side, meaning back to what social is not what zynga made it to be, is very interesting. So many of todays rpg's owe their existance to ultima, if anything mount and blade borrowed a few ideas, but forgot to tack the role playing part.

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March 9th, 2013, 03:41
Too much focus on multiplayer, which always makes single player suffer. I have no interest in multiplayer. The monkey will pass.
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