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Default RPG Codex - The Lists to Dwarf Them All

March 29th, 2013, 23:43
This is a funny thread….keep it going, confirms why I stay away from the codex

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March 30th, 2013, 01:10
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
How exactly is Icewind Dale "hack and slash"? It uses the same combat mechanics as BG and PS:T. The amount of combat doesn't make it hack and slash. As for why it's so popular, that could have something to do with fantastic artwork and an incredible soundtrack.




Speaking of not being able to fathom something…
How could you NOT notice the combat focus of IWD vs BG? Most reviews back in the day pointed it out too. And yes, I'd put Geneforge 4 ahead of most of this list. I actually finished that, and regretted the "consequences" of my choices. Can you do that in IWD? I think not.

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March 30th, 2013, 01:29
Originally Posted by ToddMcF2002 View Post
How could you NOT notice the combat focus of IWD vs BG? Most reviews back in the day pointed it out too. And yes, I'd put Geneforge 4 ahead of most of this list. I actually finished that, and regretted the "consequences" of my choices. Can you do that in IWD? I think not.
Where was anything said about focus? I'm talking about style, and it's the exact same in IWD as it is in BG. Yes, there's more of a focus on combat, but that's obviously because it was made as more of a dungeon crawler as opposed to trying to have an epic story like BG.

A far as Geneforge is concerned, I've tried the demos for all the Spiderweb games and… well, I'm glad you liked them so much.


Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
haha, there's a wiki entry for it:

Hack and Slash
Yep, that pretty much sums up exactly what I consider hack and slash nowadays.
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March 30th, 2013, 05:41
Many do "like them so much". You haven't explained what you dislike? graphics? Combat? I'm surprised you look down on them. I would have thought otherwise.

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March 30th, 2013, 08:41
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
haha, there's a wiki entry for it:

Hack and Slash
Yeah, that's sounds pretty accurate.

I certainly remember a lot of hack and slash campaigns back when I used to roleplay. When I was younger, I liked them a lot most of the time

Lots of XP and lots of loot - with a minimum of boring talky bits. Hehe, but as I grew older - I came to appreciate more cerebral campaigns with lots of talking and puzzle solving.

Icewind Dale is like a carbon copy of some of the H&S campaigns I used to play - because beyond the initial area - it's almost nothing but combat. One of the most appropriate examples of hack and slash as it's based on a PnP system.

For the most part, the first Neverwinter Nights campaign is also very hack and slash - but to be fair, there's a decent chunk of talking and story exposition as well.

That said, seeing as how the term is now being applied to all kinds of video games - which have always been completely different from PnP - it makes sense that people might think hack and slash is exclusively about games like Diablo, Dungeon Siege or Titan Quest - because those games take the concept to its extreme, where combat is basically the entire game.

But I tend to call those games either action RPGs (the broad term), Diablo-clones or Rogue-likes - depending on what I want to emphasize. Hack and slash is applicable to all games with RPG elements that are focused around combat - except for games that have zero melee combat (wouldn't make much sense), whether they're turn-based or real-time. Another example of almost pure hack and slash would be Temple of Elemental Evil - which obviously isn't a Diablo clone or an action RPG.
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March 30th, 2013, 08:52
The rest mechanic of D&D doesn't fit we'll with endless hordes to kill. It's bad enough in Nwn with the silly sit down resting. It's far too obvious in IWD. ToEE and even POR2 make better provisions for it with safe areas (sorta safe in ToEE anyway…).

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March 30th, 2013, 09:01
Originally Posted by ToddMcF2002 View Post
The rest mechanic of D&D doesn't fit we'll with endless hordes to kill. It's bad enough in Nwn with the silly sit down resting. It's far too obvious in IWD. ToEE and even POR2 make better provisions for it with safe areas (sorta safe in ToEE anyway…).
D&D doesn't have a "rest" mechanic - that's more of a computer implementation thing.

I don't remember the IWD rest mechanic, how does that work again? I assume it's like BG - where you can rest at most areas and instantly heal?

I do believe that was why they tried to improve that aspect for Dragon Age.

I can't say it bothers me all that much. When you have quick save - taking away rest becomes a matter of work more than challenge.

Especially in a hack and slash game like IWD - which is CLEARLY about killing hordes of enemies and getting loot as well as upgrading your character. I don't think a restrictive rest mechanic would mesh well with that kind of gameplay.
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March 30th, 2013, 09:56
Originally Posted by ToddMcF2002 View Post
Many do "like them so much". You haven't explained what you dislike? graphics? Combat? I'm surprised you look down on them. I would have thought otherwise.
I wouldn't say I look down on them. Jeff Vogel's games just don't appeal to me for multiple reasons. Yes, the graphics are part of it, but I also don't find the setting or stories particularly compelling in either the Geneforge or Avernum series.

I can understand why they would be popular with many people, and I'm sure they're very good as far as indie titles go. However, I don't think they're comparable to the crpgs made during the golden age of Bioware, Black Isle, and Troika.
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March 30th, 2013, 10:02
Spiderweb games bore me to tears and they look like ass.
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March 30th, 2013, 14:10
I won't stretch to compare Geneforge to BG. But graphics aside, the Geneforge series has much more RPG than IWD - specifically factions, choice and consequences. The also have very compelling stories. They have a sameness across the titles and I admittedly struggled with 2 and 3 but 4 is a real gem. If you play one Vogel game have it be Geneforge 4. Them "looking like ass" is a catch 22 because the newer engine titles look better but are dumbed down in the combat mechanics - particularly your tactical initiative.

I might of learned to appreciate Fallout 1 if it didn't have an active overland map. It kills any sense of exploration. ToEE got away with it because there was only one main location. Dragon Age… inexcusable.

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March 30th, 2013, 15:35
Spiderweb games have good mechanics and decent stat system,but I agree with JDR that they can't measure with best of genre and I also didn't find story and setting compelling neither I find writing particularity good(but not bad either).Also I find his games to similar to one another,I stop playing both his last game somewhere on middle because it felt like deja vu(I certain I used same or very similar spell/skill combo like in last averum like in those before).I much more prefer flawed Arcanum and Fallout.
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March 30th, 2013, 18:33
Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan View Post
It would be interesting to assemble a similar list here. We could learn … something… from the comparison, I'm sure.
I'd like to see that too personally. I was the one that started collecting and tallying the votes on this for the codex. To make it comparable, have people list their top 25 cRPG. The final Rank was determined by how many votes a game received.
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March 30th, 2013, 19:13
Originally Posted by Jaesun View Post
I'd like to see that too personally. I was the one that started collecting and tallying the votes on this for the codex. To make it comparable, have people list their top 25 cRPG. The final Rank was determined by how many votes a game received.
Was that with ranking of those 25?

Otherwise you might end up with the "good game that most people played" as a winner. A top 10 or top 5 would force people to choose the games they consider greats rather than just good.

25 is a fairly big number and many people would put some "filler" in their lists.
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March 30th, 2013, 19:15
Originally Posted by Jaesun View Post
I'd like to see that too personally. I was the one that started collecting and tallying the votes on this for the codex. To make it comparable, have people list their top 25 cRPG. The final Rank was determined by how many votes a game received.
Preferences largely depend on what RPGs you grew up with along with other factors related to personal taste, so any such list would likely be a mish-mash with no clear meaning - maybe a clever statistician could calculate the average age of the participants or something. For that reason, I reckon subjective personal top 25 lists are much more interesting. All I get from the Codex list is that their average taste is different than mine and that probably on average they are from a later generation - i.e. they don't rate anything from earlier than the late 90s.
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March 30th, 2013, 22:39
I really like that list, reregistered there to contribute

There is not one Game on the CRPG List that I don't like.

With the exception of FF VII I haven't played any Game on the console-list, so I can't say anything about that.

And I even think it's a good thing that the really old Games are not represented in the Top-Positions; while I loved them to death back in the days, even I simply can't play the really old Stuff anymore.

It is a good list for people new to RPGs who want to know about really good Games - not the Hiking - and Dating-Simulations of todays AAA Market.

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March 31st, 2013, 00:41
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Icewind Dale is definitely more hack and slash than a traditional RPG.
That is absolutely wrong ! I.D. (played with the extension and patched) is a true RPG with an excellent combat system and a coherent story line. Plus as someone said elsewhere, the game score is absolutely wonderful. I'm totally partial saying that as I must admit I had a lot more fun playing I.D. than I had with B.G. 1 & 2. I found the second half of B.G. boring and most of B.G. 2 (I played both with the extensions) just the same Unfortunately I found I.D. 2 even more flawed and never finished it.

If I.D. is a hack & slash then how should we call the Wizardry and Might & Magic series with their tons of random encounters fighting without reason… ?
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March 31st, 2013, 01:20
Such inconsistency. Codex rants and raves about choices and consequences and yet IWD trumps Gothic (nevermind my beloved Geneforge series). I move for a vote of no confidence.

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March 31st, 2013, 05:50
The list was bad, but not for the reasons some of you think it was bad. I mean seriously, saying Mass Effect and its ilk are better than Fallout? For real?

Originally Posted by Zaleukos View Post
Was that with ranking of those 25?

Otherwise you might end up with the "good game that most people played" as a winner. A top 10 or top 5 would force people to choose the games they consider greats rather than just good.

25 is a fairly big number and many people would put some "filler" in their lists.
Nope there wasn't ranking. Which is why what you point out is exactly what happened. It became a list of decent games that everyone had played instead of a top RPG list. That, combined with the fact that most Codexers apparently hadn't played any pre-'97 games, pretty much made the whole affair pointless.
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