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Default Dark Souls II - No Easy Mode Allowed

April 18th, 2013, 19:18
Originally Posted by TimtheTaxMan View Post
One would think that advanced players would welcome additional people playing because that means more money for FROM software and likely more games.
Developers should consider player feedback within the context of their vision. Too many franchises have been ruined when developers try making a game all things for all people. Making Dark Souls II easier might garner more sales. Or it might end the franchise. And it's possible that both could happen (near term gain in sales followed up by a long term abandonment of the series by players). It's a risky bet.

I guess if we lived in a world where the only game available to play was the next Dark Souls game, I'd happily agree with you. But it's a world filled with a lot of gaming options. Dark Souls doesn't fit your bill, there are many other games to choose from.

Dark Souls is a game I really wanted to like and wanted to enjoy. But despite my best effort, it turned out it just wasn't for me. I shouldn't let my desire to want to like that franchise alter the vision of their next game.

This very thing has happened to games that I do like - when such games got the attention of people who want to like a game, if it could be changed just enough to suit their desires & sensibilities, then they could fully embrace it. But when this has happened, it has alienated people like me, the developer's original target audience.

If I'm right but there is no wife around to acknowledge it, am I still right?
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April 18th, 2013, 19:25
I'd say more - but MadGamer has handled the job admirably.
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April 18th, 2013, 19:26
Originally Posted by TheMadGamer View Post
Developers should consider player feedback within the context of their vision. Too many franchises have been ruined when developers try making a game all things for all people. Making Dark Souls II easier might garner more sales. Or it might end the franchise. And it's possible that both could happen (near term gain in sales followed up by a long term abandonment of the series by players). It's a risky bet.

I guess if we lived in a world where the only game available to play was the next Dark Souls game, I'd happily agree with you. But it's a world filled with a lot of gaming options. Dark Souls doesn't fit your bill, there are many other games to choose from.

Dark Souls is a game I really wanted to like and wanted to enjoy. But it turned out it just wasn't for me. I shouldn't let my desire to want to like that franchise alter the vision of their next game.

This very thing has happened to games that I do like - when such games got the attention of people who want to like a game, if it could be changed just enough to suit their desires, then they could fully embrace it. But when this has happened, it has alienated people like me, their original target audience.
Again, I'm not sure how to addition of a difficulty slider would change anything at all for existing players. I'm not asking for any changes in gameplay whatsoever.

I totally get the whole ruining a game by appealing to the masses. I didn't like Mass Effect 2 for that reason. Those were changes to fundamental gameplay for everyone, not the addition of a difficulty slider.
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April 18th, 2013, 19:31
Explain exactly how that difficulty slider would work in Dark Souls.
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April 18th, 2013, 19:33
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Explain exactly how that difficulty slider would work in Dark Souls.
Could be as easy as adding save anywhere for easy mode. That would be enough for me. I don't mind a challenge, but I can't be bothered to replay the same 20 min of gameplay over and over due to minor mistakes.
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April 18th, 2013, 19:40
Originally Posted by TimtheTaxMan View Post
Could be as easy as adding save anywhere for easy mode. That would be enough for me. I don't mind a challenge, but I can't be bothered to replay the same 20 min of gameplay over and over due to minor mistakes.
So instead of a difficulty slider - you want the game to provide you with a quick save mode - meaning the developers would have to change the entire codebase to take into account all the various active/relevant/visible states and keep them in memory on both PC and consoles, which would most likely mean reducing significant content kept in memory to make room.

They should do this in a game that's entirely balanced around making players invest themselves by memorising patterns and developing a skill-set to get a sense of achievement by overcoming harsh conditions in a checkpoint environment?

They should implement a quick save so people who're not into their vision can completely remove the sense of pressure and urgency they're trying to create - because they want to be able to play the game even if the vision is not something they agree with?

You DO understand that the point of Dark Souls is that you don't make minor mistakes, because if you do - you die, right? It's not poor balance - it's 100% intentional.

That should change to suit you?

You think that's reasonable?
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April 18th, 2013, 19:42
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I'd say more - but MadGamer has handled the job admirably.
Thanks for the compliment - I really did try.

@TimTheTaxMan
I feel like I've exhausted every point I can make on this. If you still can't see what I'm getting at then it's best just to stop and take a break.

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April 18th, 2013, 19:48
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
So instead of a difficulty slider - you want the game to provide you with a quick save mode - meaning the developers would have to change the entire codebase to take into account all the various active/relevant/visible states and keep them in memory on both PC and consoles, which would most likely mean reducing significant content kept in memory to make room.

They should do this in a game that's entirely balanced around making players invest themselves by memorising patterns and developing a skill-set to get a sense of achievement by overcoming harsh conditions in a checkpoint environment?

They should implement a quick save so people who're not into their vision can completely remove the sense of pressure and urgency they're trying to create - because they want to be able to play the game even if the vision is not something they agree with?

You DO understand that the point of Dark Souls is that you don't make minor mistakes, because if you do - you die, right? It's not poor balance - it's 100% intentional.

That should change to suit you?

You think that's reasonable?

Remember this change would only be for those who ELECT to have it that way. You or anyone else would be able to play the way you are used to.

Absolutely it is reasonable. The minor changes that would enable this would be more then made up for in increased sales. Moreover, it could also be something like reducing the damage enemies do to 1/4 so you don't die in 2-3 hits. There are a lot of simple things that could be implemented very easily for an "easy" mode that wouldn't change the game at all for the hardcore players.
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April 18th, 2013, 20:06
Originally Posted by TimtheTaxMan View Post
Remember this change would only be for those who ELECT to have it that way. You or anyone else would be able to play the way you are used to.
What do you mean it's only for those who elect it?

All the consequences of that change is going to affect everyone. The developers themselves are being asked to implement something that they have no interest in doing and which goes completely counter to their vision - as well as technically restrict what they can do because of save states.

All the fans of the vision will be affected by less interesting content because it won't fit in memory - and they'll have to redesign certain features of the game based on checkpoints (like the Bonfires) for the save game version.

This means less development time for the vision - meaning less of a game for ALL fans.

Absolutely it is reasonable. The minor changes that would enable this would be more then made up for in increased sales. Moreover, it could also be something like reducing the damage enemies do to 1/4 so you don't die in 2-3 hits. There are a lot of simple things that could be implemented very easily for an "easy" mode that wouldn't change the game at all for the hardcore players.
The challenge in the game is not about how many times you get hit before dying - but about learning patterns. You don't want to get hit at all, because it generally means you die - or close to it.

Most of the hard aspects in the game is about mistakes being FATAL - not damaging. You can't just reduce numbers - because if a trap or a hard blow from an enemy isn't fatal, then the game is not slightly easier - it's completely trivial. If you don't have to dodge the first timed trap or blow - then timing becomes irrelevant.

Learning patterns would no longer be important - and it would be like playing godmode.

Timing is everything in Dark Souls - and all challenges are designed around it.

Again, it's not TES or a traditional RPG where numbers are everything. It has roots in console action/arcade games where timing is what you need.

Why do you think corrupting their vision can possibly be made up for in increased sales? If they were focused on sales as their ultimate task - they wouldn't be making Dark Souls. They'd be making something that appealed to the masses instead.

The fact that you think implementing a quick save mode in an established codebase intended for consoles using checkpoints is a "minor change" tells me you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
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April 18th, 2013, 20:08
Just a nitpick: Dark Souls has the 'save anywhere' mechanic, so the system for saving the state of the game etc. is already there. You can exit the game at any time and pop back exactly where you left it.

Of course, it's more like 'save continuously wherever you go, in one slot only' :-) but the point about the system being already there stands.
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April 18th, 2013, 20:14
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
What do you mean it's only for those who elect it?

All the consequences of that change is going to affect everyone. The developers themselves are being asked to implement something that they have no interest in doing and which goes completely counter to their vision - as well as technically restrict what they can do because of save states.

All the fans of the vision will be affected by less interesting content because it won't fit in memory - and they'll have to redesign certain features of the game based on checkpoints (like the Bonfires) for the save game version.

This means less development time for the vision - meaning less of a game for ALL fans.



The challenge in the game is not about how many times you get hit before dying - but about learning patterns. You don't want to get hit at all, because it generally means you die - or close to it.

Most of the hard aspects in the game is about mistakes being FATAL - not damaging. You can't just reduce numbers - because if a trap or a hard blow from an enemy isn't fatal, then the game is not slightly easier - it's completely trivial. If you don't have to dodge the first timed trap or blow - then timing becomes irrelevant.

Learning patterns would no longer be important - and it would be like playing godmode.

Why do you think corrupting their vision can possibly be made up for in increased sales? If they were focused on sales as their ultimate task - they wouldn't be making Dark Souls. They'd be making something that appealed to the masses instead.

The fact that you think implementing a quick save mode in an established codebase intended for consoles using checkpoints is a "minor change" tells me you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Well if it was hard to implement, they could make other changes like reducing enemy damage or a host of other things.

I think where you are getting confused is about what the game means for you. If it "is about mistakes being FATAL" nothing would change for you. How would having mistakes not be immediately fatal for me in easy mode ruin the game for you?
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April 18th, 2013, 20:15
Originally Posted by Elwro View Post
Just a nitpick: Dark Souls has the 'save anywhere' mechanic, so the system for saving the state of the game etc. is already there. You can exit the game at any time and pop back exactly where you left it.

Of course, it's more like 'save continuously wherever you go, in one slot only' :-) but the point about the system being already there stands.
It saves your character and his position and what has been registered at the last checkpoint - but everything else is reset back to normal.

So, it wouldn't be anything at all like the quick save being requested. Unless you want a quick save where quick load = all the baddies pop up in front of you all of a sudden.
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April 18th, 2013, 20:17
Originally Posted by TimtheTaxMan View Post
Well if it was hard to implement, they could make other changes like reducing enemy damage or a host of other things.

I think where you are getting confused is about what the game means for you. If it "is about mistakes being FATAL" nothing would change for you. How would having mistakes not be immediately fatal for me ruin the game for you?
Do I seem like someone who can't read?

Because I heard you the first time several posts ago.

Let me put it this way: If they could implement exactly what you wanted without negatively affecting their vision or the experience for the fans AT ALL - then I'd be absolutely fine with it.

Our point of contention is that I don't think it's possible. Sure, if you want a godmode - then it might be possible. I think they could probably put together a reduced enemy damage modifier pretty quickly. But I'm also quite sure you'd be VERY disappointed - and you'd soon realise that even if you can't be bothered to invest yourself in a game - you also don't want to walk all over the content in a game that's 100% designed from the ground up around CHALLENGE and little else.

Oh, and it has nothing to do with me. I'm NOT a fan of Dark Souls.
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April 18th, 2013, 20:25
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Do I seem like someone who can't read?

Because I heard you the first time several posts ago.

Let me put it this way: If they could implement exactly what you wanted without negatively affecting their vision or the experience for the fans AT ALL - then I'd be absolutely fine with it.

Our point of contention is that I don't think it's possible.

Oh, and it has nothing to do with me. I'm NOT a fan of Dark Souls.

You really think that making the enemies simply do less damage would take much implementation time?

They have the potential of doubling or tripling sales by making an easy mode that would appeal to more gamers while not changing anything for the existing fan base. I think they are crazy, but hey it is their game. If they want to pander to the elitists who have all day to master a game just so they can wave their e-peens around I guess they can use that business model. I just think it is unfortunate because I'm a king's field fan who would enjoy playing.
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April 18th, 2013, 20:30
Originally Posted by TimtheTaxMan View Post
You really think that making the enemies simply do less damage would take much implementation time?
Now I'm questioning whether you can read or not.

Read my post again.

No, reducing damage would be trivial. But the result is not what you're really looking for.

They have the potential of doubling or tripling sales by making an easy mode that would appeal to more gamers while not changing anything for the existing fan base. I think they are crazy, but hey it is their game. If they want to pander to the elitists who have all day to master a game just so they can wave their e-peens around I guess they can use that business model. I just think it is unfortunate because I'm a king's field fan who would enjoy playing.
At least it's pretty clear where you're coming from.

People who love a game that's designed around challenge made by developers who're not interested in compromise for the sake of more money are obviously elitists. They're not simply enthusiastic gamers willing to dedicate themselves and so much of their time to the hobby they made prosper through loyal support.

They have the potential to destroy the franchise by catering to people with no appreciation of what they're trying to do and with no understanding of what it takes to make a game without compromising themselves and appealing to the mass market.

I think it's unfortunate that the kind of gamer you represent is actually controlling 95% of the AAA market.

I think it's even more unfortunate that 95% of the AAA market isn't enough for you - so now you want the 5% that is not about appealing to the masses to corrupt themselves so you can have it all.
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April 18th, 2013, 20:35
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Now I'm questioning whether you can read or not.

Read my post again.

No, reducing damage would be trivial. But the result is not what you're really looking for.



At least it's pretty clear where you're coming from.

People who love a game that's designed around challenge made by developers who're not interested in compromise for the sake of more money are obviously elitists.

They have the potential to destroy the franchise by catering to people with no appreciation of what they're trying to do and with no understanding of what it takes to make a game without compromising themselves and appealing to the mass market.

I think it's unfortunate that the kind of gamer you represent is actually controlling 95% of the AAA market.

I think it's even more unfortunate that 95% of the AAA market isn't enough for you - so now you want the 5% that is not about appealing to the masses to corrupt themselves so you can have it all.

I can read, but you have no reasonable basis to claim that making minor changes to accommodate an OPTIONAL easy mode would do anything at all to the hardcore base.

I hardly play any AAA games. But I also don't live in my mom's basement and have all day to master a video game either.
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April 18th, 2013, 20:39
Originally Posted by TimtheTaxMan View Post
I can read, but you have no reasonable basis to claim that making minor changes to accommodate an easy mode would do anything at all to the hardcore base.
I've made it extremely clear that reducing enemy damage would NOT affect the hardcore base - but that it would not provide you with what you want, because I don't believe for a second you'd enjoy Dark Souls like that.

I very much doubt you understand how Dark Souls was designed and how absolutely integral the correct level of challenge is to the enjoyment of the game.

But, as I said, I have no problem with the developers making a reduced damage mode just as long as it doesn't affect the game overall.

But I would never suggest they do anything they don't want to do.

If I was a developer, I wouldn't do it either - but that's because I'm not interested in being popular. I just want to do what I believe is right.

Catering to people for money is not appealing to me at all.

I hardly play any AAA games. But I also don't live in my mom's basement and have all day to master a video game either
Exactly. You represent the non-enthusiast and as such, you represent the majority of the player base.

The majority controls ~95% of the AAA market.
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April 18th, 2013, 20:46
This is great news indeed! Must admit all that talk about making it more accesible got me a bit worried, but seems like they know well what they are doing.
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April 18th, 2013, 20:47
Seriously, guys, it's not that hard.

If you're having trouble kick it oldschool and read the Hintbook! (wiki)

Games are not supposed to be interactive movies you just cruise through without thinking!
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April 18th, 2013, 20:51
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
Seriously, guys, it's not that hard.

If you're having trouble kick it oldschool and read the Hintbook! (wiki)

Games are not supposed to be interactive movies you just cruise through without thinking!
Since I'm not living in my mom's basement - I obviously can't invest myself during all those hours I spend playing games.

I do have the hours - but I don't have the "investment" energy.

Or something.
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