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Default RPGWatch Feature: Mars War Logs - Review

May 5th, 2013, 19:57
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
That's fine and I have no problem with that. I was questioning the whole "leading site" standpoint, simply because I don't think it's a good way to look at things. But that's me.
Perhaps an unfortunate choice of words as it seems to have led to an unexpected strong reaction on your side.
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
What a cop-out. Obviously, you're more than capable of articulating yourself.

You don't WANT to write a review, end of story - and that's fine. But that's also why I think being a bit more measured when going down that "we should set an example" route is worth considering. You get me?
It isn't just about articulating but more about organising and structuring the article in such a way that it forms a coherent whole, which is not a trivial task. Were I to write a formal extensive review, I would try to dissect the game and address its individual RPG elements, both existent and non-existent with the purpose of trying to provide the reader with sufficient information so that he/she can conclude whether the game appeals to his/her particular RPG preferences.

Actually, writing doesn't come to me naturally and I tend to rethink and rewrite sentences a lot and the prospect of writing a lengthy indepth review, worthy of what I consider a reputable RPG site, would thus be very time consuming for me and quite a hurdle and I do fear ending up with an article that sounds too amateurish.


Another aspect that I forgot to mention is that, if I understood correctly, Focus Home provided a Steam key for a formal review. In that case, I sincerely believe that you have a certain responsability and owe it to the developer to provide a serious and indepth review.
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
There's no aggression in my post.

However, I can't determine why you perceive aggression.

Maybe I come off as aggressive - but I'm uncommonly neutral in most ways. I just have an opinion and I like to speak it openly and without manipulation.

I'm sorry if that's "aggressive" to you. It isn't to me.
It is the tone in your post that made me perceive it as somewhat aggressive.

You tend to come across as someone who is quick to go into the offensive, even if you intend to be neutral by your own saying. I guess it is a known problem with an unknown solution .
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May 5th, 2013, 20:12
Originally Posted by Asdraguuhl View Post
Perhaps an unfortunate choice of words as it seems to have led to an unexpected strong reaction on your side.
If you think my reaction is strong and you don't like a strong reaction - then I suppose it was an unfortunate choice of words, as seen from your point of view

It isn't just about articulating but more about organising and structuring the article in such a way that it forms a coherent whole, which is not a trivial task. Were I to write a formal extensive review, I would try to dissect the game and address its individual RPG elements, both existent and non-existent with the purpose of trying to provide the reader with sufficient information so that he/she can conclude whether the game appeals to his/her particular RPG preferences.

Actually, writing doesn't come to me naturally and I tend to rethink and rewrite sentences a lot and the prospect of writing a lengthy indepth review, worthy of what I consider a reputable RPG site, would thus be very time consuming for me and quite a hurdle and I do fear ending up with an article that sounds too amateurish.
Well, for what it's worth - you seem very capable in this way. While it might be an effort - I think it would be interesting to read one of your reviews.

In case there's any doubt - I'm being sincere.

Another aspect that I forgot to mention is that, if I understood correctly, Focus Home provided a Steam key for a formal review. In that case, I sincerely believe that you have a certain responsability and owe it to the developer to provide a serious and indepth review.
Well, that's another case of us seeing things differently.

As in, I don't appreciate the distinction between being handed a key for a formal review and doing a review without having been handed a key.

Certainly, it makes no difference to me.

I would take a review very seriously no matter what.

It is the tone in your post that made me perceive it as somewhat aggressive.
Obviously, but in what way? Specifics please.

You tend to come across as someone who is quick to go into the offensive, even if you intend to be neutral by your own saying. I guess it is a known problem with an unknown solution .
I don't recognise it as a problem, really.

If I did - I probably would have done more to find a solution.

I'm not a very aggressive person. In fact, I'm probably more calm than the average human being.

I do believe strongly in honesty and I despise manipulation in most cases - which is why I don't mince words and I consider "diplomacy" a form of manipulation. So, while I do appreciate that you have to know me to understand I'm not being aggressive - I can't see it as a problem.

I'm ok with the reaction - and I'm more than used to it. I've been participating like this since the early 90s - starting with Usenet.

I've never been perceived as a particularly amiable person online
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May 5th, 2013, 20:39
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I consider RPGWatch to be the most balanced site I know of that happens to deal with a subject very close to my heart. I generally like the members and I respect the level of information shared between us quite a bit.

That's much more than enough for me, and the work behind it is greatly appreciated. I hope it's ok that I don't think of it as a leader or an authority. No one leads or governs what amounts to the spreading of news and the exchange of opinions - as far as I'm concerned.
So you are saying that the site should remain with the spirit of just 'watching' - then they should not be doing reviews, and if they do then a disclaimer should be included to exclude rpgwatch and indicate that any review is a reflection of a personal opinion of 'a' registered member, and does not reflect any experience or accumulated knowledge by a chosen experienced member in the genre!
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May 5th, 2013, 20:44
Originally Posted by SpoonFULL View Post
So you are saying that the site should remain with the spirit of just 'watching' - then they should not be doing reviews, and if they do then a disclaimer should be included to exclude rpgwatch and indicate that any review is a reflection of a personal opinion of 'a' registered member, and does not reflect any experience or accumulated knowledge by a chosen experienced member in the genre!
Ehm, what?

I don't have any idea how you arrived at that.

I don't think I've said anything even remotely like that.
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May 5th, 2013, 21:04
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Ehm, what?

I don't have any idea how you arrived at that.

I don't think I've said anything even remotely like that.
I think you said that: "That's much more than enough for me, and the work behind it is greatly appreciated. I hope it's ok that I don't think of it as a leader or an authority. No one leads or governs what amounts to the spreading of news and the exchange of opinions - as far as I'm concerned. "
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May 5th, 2013, 21:08
Originally Posted by SpoonFULL View Post
I think you said that: "That's much more than enough for me, and the work behind it is greatly appreciated. I hope it's ok that I don't think of it as a leader or an authority. No one leads or governs what amounts to the spreading of news and the exchange of opinions - as far as I'm concerned. "
Yes - you're right.

But I don't see how that relates in any way to what you seem to think I said.

I can't make even the slightest connection from what you think I said to what I actually said.

Sorry, but I just can't.
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May 5th, 2013, 21:17
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Yes - you're right.

But I don't see how that relates in any way to what you seem to think I said.

I can't make even the slightest connection from what you think I said to what I actually said.

Sorry, but I just can't.
I interpreted "No one leads or governs what amounts to the spreading of news and the exchange of opinions - as far as I'm concerned." as your indication that the function of this web site is just report news, in which case who is leading or lagging is not relevant, yes? If this is the case than you are implying that this 'watch' has no authority in making reviews as their main function is to reprot news.
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May 5th, 2013, 21:25
Originally Posted by SpoonFULL View Post
I interpreted "No one leads or governs what amounts to the spreading of news and the exchange of opinions - as far as I'm concerned." as your indication that the function of this web site is just report news, in which case who is leading or lagging is not relevant, yes? If this is the case than you are implying that this 'watch' has no authority in making reviews as their main function is to reprot news.
That's a misunderstanding.

I'm talking about being a leader among established sites.

It has nothing to do with who's leading the site - and it has nothing to do with staying away from doing reviews.

I'm saying that it's fully possible to write quality reviews and to do quality news work - without striving for leadership among RPG sites.

In fact, I think it's completely senseless to try and determine which is a "leading site" and which is not. It depends on the audience and what it's looking for.

I don't think of people or communities as "the best" or "the worst" - I think of them as either contributing or not contributing.

I don't feel capable of measuring the objective value of any site.

For instance - I consider The Codex to be just as potentially valuable as RPGWatch. It depends on who you are - and what you're looking for.

I also consider sites like IGN or other mainstream sites potentially valuable - depending on the audience. Casual gamers will get more from IGN than they'll get from Codex or the Watch.

So, I don't use my own personal opinion or preference as some kind of objective measuring stick.
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May 5th, 2013, 21:29
Originally Posted by SpoonFULL View Post
So you are saying that the site should remain with the spirit of just 'watching' - then they should not be doing reviews, and if they do then a disclaimer should be included to exclude rpgwatch and indicate that any review is a reflection of a personal opinion of 'a' registered member, and does not reflect any experience or accumulated knowledge by a chosen experienced member in the genre!
Who is that exactly?

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May 5th, 2013, 21:40
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
That's a misunderstanding.

I'm talking about being a leader among established sites.

It has nothing to do with who's leading the site - and it has nothing to do with staying away from doing reviews.

I'm saying that it's fully possible to write quality reviews and to do quality news work - without striving for leadership among RPG sites.

In fact, I think it's completely senseless to try and determine which is a "leading site" and which is not. It depends on the audience and what it's looking for.

I don't think of people or communities as "the best" or "the worst" - I think of them as either contributing or not contributing.

I don't feel capable of measuring the objective value of any site.

For instance - I consider The Codex to be just as potentially valuable as RPGWatch. It depends on who you are - and what you're looking for.

I also consider sites like IGN or other mainstream sites potentially valuable - depending on the audience. Casual gamers will get more from IGN than they'll get from Codex or the Watch.

So, I don't use my own personal opinion or preference as some kind of objective measuring stick.
What you are saying is logical and I have no problem with that. It seems that I misunderstood your statement that you consider rpgwatch as just a news reporting site. I felt is it more than that particularly when it comes to reviews and maybe this is the expecation of others - but again that is just a personal feeling.
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May 5th, 2013, 21:43
Originally Posted by SpoonFULL View Post
What you are saying is logical and I have no problem with that. It seems that I misunderstood your statement that you consider rpgwatch as just a news reporting site. I felt is it more than that particularly when it comes to reviews and maybe this is the expecation of others - but again that is just a personal feeling.
RPGWatch is much more to me than "just" a news reporting site.

I'm simply against thinking of these things in terms of leaders/winners and followers/losers.

In general - I think modern society has an unhealthy obsession with such things - and I tend to think of human beings as fully equal in potential worth - once you take into account their background.

So, when people go around trying to measure something so intangible as the objective/universal value or position of a website - I tend to react negatively.
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May 5th, 2013, 21:48
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
RPGWatch is much more to me than "just" a news reporting site.

I'm simply against thinking of these things in terms of leaders/winners and followers/losers.

In general - I think modern society has an unhealthy obsession with such things - and I tend to think of human beings as fully equal in potential worth - once you take into account their background.

So, when people go around trying to measure something so intangible as the objective/universal value or position of a website - I tend to react negatively.
True, but when it comes to reviews readers think first of the 'credibility' and 'track record' of the web site, since as human beings we normally need a reference when it comes to measuring things. This particularly true if the name of the web site strongly implies proficiency in a particular genre.

Again, this might be the expectation of Mr Joe Average - you are different and aware of the strength and weaknesses of other available web sites and those that speak your language so that you can form an opinion about the validity or not of their reviews.

Anyways, I need some time now to think about your other post on the three categories!
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May 5th, 2013, 21:51
Originally Posted by SpoonFULL View Post
True, but when it comes to reviews readers think first of the 'credibility' and 'track record' of the web site, since as human beings we normally need a reference when it comes to measuring things.
Sure, but I like to let people decide for themselves how they feel about things.

I don't think that because you place a site on a list of the best sites - it makes a difference to how the individual will benefit from visiting that site. I also don't think that because the majority prefers one site over the other - it means that the site in question is objectively better or more valuable than other sites.

Conclusively, I don't think it makes much sense to declare one site a leader or an authority on RPGs.

I consider myself much more of an authority on RPGs than any website. Maybe that's my ego talking - but I can't help that
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May 5th, 2013, 22:14
Originally Posted by Asdraguuhl View Post
Another aspect that I forgot to mention is that, if I understood correctly, Focus Home provided a Steam key for a formal review. In that case, I sincerely believe that you have a certain responsability and owe it to the developer to provide a serious and indepth review.
Yes we received a key from Focus Home Interactive and run their ads banner. And yes they are not happy with the low rating of the review, why should they.
That they gave us a key however has no influence whatsoever on the contents of the article in any way. Neither on its structure nor on the contents.

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May 5th, 2013, 22:47
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Well, for what it's worth - you seem very capable in this way. While it might be an effort - I think it would be interesting to read one of your reviews.

In case there's any doubt - I'm being sincere.
I appreciate the kind words. I won't promise anything but you never know, I might surprise you (and myself) one day.

But I would have to violate one of my sacred rules: Never play a game before it is sufficiently patched. (Patience is a virtue that really pays off in PC gaming ).

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Obviously, but in what way? Specifics please.
Take e.g. this sentence of yours:
Rest asssured, I'll be right here ready to comment on such a review. So - what are you waiting for?
I perceive here a well exposed desire to lure me into a trap so that you can strike me down hard without any mercy and gloat over it .
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I don't recognise it as a problem, really.

If I did - I probably would have done more to find a solution.

I'm not a very aggressive person. In fact, I'm probably more calm than the average human being.

I do believe strongly in honesty and I despise manipulation in most cases - which is why I don't mince words and I consider "diplomacy" a form of manipulation. So, while I do appreciate that you have to know me to understand I'm not being aggressive - I can't see it as a problem.

I'm ok with the reaction - and I'm more than used to it. I've been participating like this since the early 90s - starting with Usenet.

I've never been perceived as a particularly amiable person online
Yes, we talked about this before but it is a different topic altogether, one that would result in an endless exchange of well argumented opinions with no chance of convergence .
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May 5th, 2013, 23:57
Originally Posted by Myrthos View Post
That they gave us a key however has no influence whatsoever on the contents of the article in any way. Neither on its structure nor on the contents.
It shouldn't affect the rating, we can agree on that. If there are bad elements in the game, there is no reason to hide them.

However, out of a sense of responsability and professionalism, I do believe that a formal review of this kind should be more informative and fleshed out. Some may disagree with me but I do think that accepting a review copy does carry with it a certain responsability and to a some extent an obligation to guarantee an indepth review with full coverage.
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May 6th, 2013, 00:15
Originally Posted by Asdraguuhl View Post
I do think that accepting a review copy does carry with it a certain responsability and to a some extent an obligation to guarantee an indepth review with full coverage.
This.

There is one thing not mentioned in the review - (almost) no bugs in the game for example.

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May 6th, 2013, 00:44
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
This.

There is one thing not mentioned in the review - (almost) no bugs in the game for example.
Isnt "bugfreeness" expected of games these days anymore? IMO it is one of those things you dont mention if the game doesnt have it and mention if the game has it.
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May 6th, 2013, 01:50
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
This.

There is one thing not mentioned in the review - (almost) no bugs in the game for example.
Well, at least we know you think it is better then skyrim

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May 6th, 2013, 02:02
In that one aspect yes, it's just miles better than Skyrim.
But I didn't say it's overall better than Skyrim. In some other aspects it's not. For example music. While the one in Skyrim is epic, here it's good, but not something awsome.

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