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Default Here is an example why iPad can handle complex PC games

May 18th, 2013, 18:50
It already has games as complex as the witcher 2. You just dont own one so havent played them. Ayway, my point wasnt ut already can match the pc, but in certain genres like synapse or xcom it can offer an alternative and even more enjoyable and direct experience to gaming.
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May 18th, 2013, 18:54
Holy crap I think the legendarynpc game syberia is hitting the iPad. This was one of my favorite adventure games of all time. The atmosphere, toy factory, etc. here is the original game:
http://www.bigfishgames.com/download…t-1/index.html

And I see an iPad itunes link but am not seeing the title appear yet on the App Store:
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showth…hreadid=189392
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May 18th, 2013, 19:42
I thought you already got an infraction for this?

Developer of The Wizard's Grave Android game. Discussion Thread:
http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22520
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May 18th, 2013, 20:42
Originally Posted by AppleIntimidation View Post
Well someone on the rpg thread about iphone games started talking about other genres
Um … and that someone was - YOU!

It is funny, DArtagnan and I have had discussions about whether or not this guy is actually a rather clever bot - troll posts, routinely off-topic, impervious to logic, etc …

We all know I am a huge fan of iOS devices, but there are a couple of key issues:
- Hardware is optimized for 'decent' performance that maximizes power efficiency.
- Hardware changes so rapidly there will NEVER be full optimization of an engine. Just not worth it.

Plus the business model for gaming on iOS and Android is just wrong for anything but lukewarm ports of old games at this point … though I hope that changes.

My iPad is my '90% computer', in that I can do so much with it … but if I want to dig into serious gaming, it is PC (i.e. also not Mac) all the way.

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May 18th, 2013, 21:04
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
It is funny, DArtagnan and I have had discussions about whether or not this guy is actually a rather clever bot - troll posts, routinely off-topic, impervious to logic, etc …
I think you might be right - he could be an AI coded by Apple to spread the iOS gospel. They still have some kinks to work out apparently…
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May 18th, 2013, 21:22
Originally Posted by Myrkrel View Post
I think you might be right - he could be an AI coded by Apple to spread the iOS gospel. They still have some kinks to work out apparently…
Not their style - they (like Google) have plenty of self-appointed evangelists who see nothing wrong in what they do, and have no problem trolling like this.

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May 18th, 2013, 22:19
It's more likely that he is a Russian spam bot that has gained some small amount of sentience. Oh the horrors of being born in a pool of cat videos and ragefaces… It's no wonder his mind is so fragile.
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May 18th, 2013, 22:31
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
We all know I am a huge fan of iOS devices
I'm not. After this iPhone I'm using (for work, you don't think I'd ever buy a smartphone myself), there is no way I'll pick any iOS device.

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May 18th, 2013, 23:26
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
I'm not. After this iPhone I'm using (for work, you don't think I'd ever buy a smartphone myself), there is no way I'll pick any iOS device.
I was surprised I like the iPhone as much as I do after 4 years of Android phones. Yet to find an Android tablet worth crap, though … too many compromises, too much impact of fragmentation, too many entire categories of apps missing, too many gaping holes in the OS.

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May 19th, 2013, 01:39
What's this "complex" word getting thrown around? You could put a really complex game on an old Atari ST/Amiga/286 PC. I'm sure you could put something seriously complex into an iPad or whatever.

But why would you? People playing on one of those platforms are likely "on the go", meaning they probably aren't going to be continuously playing for more than half an hour or so. It's hard to learn a complex game if you keep picking it up and putting it down all the time.

AppleIntimidation, I don't know much about TF2 but I sure know that THAT ain't it. The kid also seems to be telling people how to get a cracked version of the game.
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May 19th, 2013, 01:50
I don't have a cell phone or an Ipad, but my wife has both, and when it comes to games she goes to her desktop, everytime. She calls the ipad her "Yugo", and the desktop is her "Rolls-Royce". =p



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May 19th, 2013, 05:34
Originally Posted by AppleIntimidation View Post
It already has games as complex as the witcher 2.
like?
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May 19th, 2013, 13:42
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Not their style - they (like Google) have plenty of self-appointed evangelists who see nothing wrong in what they do, and have no problem trolling like this.
But the way he is posting and the rather silly arguments based on no real factual ground/he just throws them out there makes him seem more like an anti-fanboy, one that does something to ridicule the fanboys, rather than trying to win people over.
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May 19th, 2013, 15:01
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
like?
Don't bother … he is impervious to such logic.

I mean … sure there are 'pretty' games, and fun strategy games. But aside from old-ish ports and games from Jeff Vogel, there are no RPGs yet that really compete on the level of what we here are expecting.

And it is *not* due to hardware - the iPad 4 is faster in most ways than the XBOX360 (and slower in some others) and close to the PS3, and is also faster than pretty much any non-gaming laptop from ~2008. With proper development and optimization, there is no reason we couldn't see much more in terms of deep gaming experiences. But as DArtagnan and I have discussed, until someoen develops a new paradigm for RPGs on tablets, they will all be ports.

Heck, it is more powerful than the HP Elitebook 2570p I'm typing this on … and this thing managed Bioshock Infinite quite well!

Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
But the way he is posting and the rather silly arguments based on no real factual ground/he just throws them out there makes him seem more like an anti-fanboy, one that does something to ridicule the fanboys, rather than trying to win people over.
Interesting theory … but every now and then there is something interesting, engaging and non-crazy that he says … which is actually more infuriating.

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May 19th, 2013, 15:36
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Don't bother … he is impervious to such logic.

I mean … sure there are 'pretty' games, and fun strategy games. But aside from old-ish ports and games from Jeff Vogel, there are no RPGs yet that really compete on the level of what we here are expecting.

And it is *not* due to hardware - the iPad 4 is faster in most ways than the XBOX360 (and slower in some others) and close to the PS3, and is also faster than pretty much any non-gaming laptop from ~2008. With proper development and optimization, there is no reason we couldn't see much more in terms of deep gaming experiences. But as DArtagnan and I have discussed, until someoen develops a new paradigm for RPGs on tablets, they will all be ports.

Heck, it is more powerful than the HP Elitebook 2570p I'm typing this on … and this thing managed Bioshock Infinite quite well!
I believe we've been through this, but I don't understand why you think iPad is comparable to the Xbox 360 - but it really isn't.

You seem focused on CPU speed - and you seem to forget that 99% of all modern games on PC and consoles are heavily reliant on GPU performance. I know the latest iPads have improved their GPU speed - but it's still quite far away from X360/PS3 in terms of GPU power.

Trust me, Bioshock Infinite could never happen on an iPad and look like it does on X360.

I'm not making this up, by the way

You can google console and ipad GPU and see for yourself. A reasonable estimate would be that iPad 4 has ~25-40% of X360's GPU rendering power. That's why it was a big deal when iPad 4 beat the PlayStation Vita hand-held recently. I trust you know that the Vita is a joke compared to X360 and PS3.

We're talking the latest iPad versus very soon-to-be last-gen consoles.

So, no, we're not quite there yet.
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May 19th, 2013, 16:00
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I believe we've been through this, but I don't understand why you think iPad is comparable to the Xbox 360 - but it really isn't.
My point is more that we cannot blame the tech level for the lack of games.

I had gone through one that took it apart bit by bit, rather than the bulk numbers. And while what you say is true for the aggregate, what we are seeing is that in some areas things are much closer - which is impressive for a comparison of a huge power-sucking, heat-pumping immobile lump to something that weighs less than a controller pushing 2x hours of battery life of most smartphones while not getting too hot to handle.

As for Bioshock infinite …? Is the iPad CPU more powerful than an i3? Yes. Is the GPU better than an integrated Intel? Yes. So YES it could run Bioshock infinite. ***BUT*** not without considerable work on the part of the developer.

We will really see with X-COM later this year - we've been promised the full game. That is a non-trivial game that requires real hardware. It will be interesting to see how it does, what price it comes out at, and how it sells. That could well determine the trajectory going forward.

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May 19th, 2013, 16:19
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
My point is more that we cannot blame the tech level for the lack of games.

I had gone through one that took it apart bit by bit, rather than the bulk numbers. And while what you say is true for the aggregate, what we are seeing is that in some areas things are much closer - which is impressive for a comparison of a huge power-sucking, heat-pumping immobile lump to something that weighs less than a controller pushing 2x hours of battery life of most smartphones while not getting too hot to handle.
It's certainly impressive hardware when you consider the physical nature of the platform - and while I agree the hardware isn't "to blame", I think it's more of a factor than you seem to think.

But that's ok, we just disagree.

As for Bioshock infinite …? Is the iPad CPU more powerful than an i3? Yes. Is the GPU better than an integrated Intel? Yes. So YES it could run Bioshock infinite. ***BUT*** not without considerable work on the part of the developer.
What I'm saying is that it wouldn't look like it does on X360. I can't account for your opinion of how it looked and performed on your laptop - so I won't try to argue that point.

How do you know the GPU power is superior to your laptop, by the way? Do you have any numbers to back that up?

Could some inferior version be made with a lot of effort? Sure. Also, that's iPad 4 - and I'm talking about iPad in general.

We will really see with X-COM later this year - we've been promised the full game. That is a non-trivial game that requires real hardware. It will be interesting to see how it does, what price it comes out at, and how it sells. That could well determine the trajectory going forward.
Yes, that should be a reasonable demonstration of my point. My guess is that they'll severely reduce mesh complexity for all the assets.
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May 19th, 2013, 18:09
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Yes, that should be a reasonable demonstration of my point. My guess is that they'll severely reduce mesh complexity for all the assets.
Totally agree …

I forgot to finish my Bioshock thought - which was … but ultimately WHO CARES if they can wrangle the game onto the iPad. What is the chance that even me - a huge iPad advocate - will enjoy the iPad version even 10% as much as the PC version? None. Shooters are at BEST a mediocre compromise on the iPad.

Likewise, action-RPG games are the same sort of compromise, and strategy games remind me of console ports of PC games in how they make life more complex to make up for the lack of controls.

As for why I keep going back to the XBOX360, it actually has little to do with hardware comparisons. I was doing reviews of PC and XBOX stuff when the 360 came out, and within 6 months people were predicting a very short console cycle because it was PC-like hardware and was struggling to keep up with games devs tried to put there. And yet here we are several years later, with great looking games and the longest generation ever.

My point on that is there is no reason to think that under similar circumstances developers could squeeze much more out of tablet hardware (have you *seen* what the Tegra 4 packs?) than they have shown. But that won't happen for two major reasons:
- Whereas XBOX/PS3 are gaming-only devices, on a tablet gaming is but one of many functionalities … and not the most important by far.
- The XBOX360 was already 4.5 years old when the first iPad and Android tablets arrived, and we've seen 4 iPad generations since, with a 5th around the corner. This isn't like PCs going 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen Core i7 … much has changed along the way. It isn't practical to optimize too much … the hardware moves too fast.

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May 19th, 2013, 18:14
As for why I keep going back to the XBOX360, it actually has little to do with hardware comparisons. I was doing reviews of PC and XBOX stuff when the 360 came out, and within 6 months people were predicting a very short console cycle because it was PC-like hardware and was struggling to keep up with games devs tried to put there. And yet here we are several years later, with great looking games and the longest generation ever.
I don't doubt that a lot of people were arguing that - but I wouldn't have been one of them

Then again, I've been following console trends for many years - and the same arguments and "sky is falling" crap is spewed every single time a new generation is introduced.

As for why we're not seeing the kind of games we're looking for, I think we're largely in agreement - though we may disagree on a few details.
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May 20th, 2013, 02:47
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Interesting theory … but every now and then there is something interesting, engaging and non-crazy that he says … which is actually more infuriating.
Yea, I don't quite believe it myself, but sometimes it feels like that is what going on.
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