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Default XBOX one: the last nail to the coffin

May 29th, 2013, 22:26
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
If consoles are innovative, then please list those innovations. Selling more does NOT equal innovation. All consoles are doing is selling more volume of a narrower set of high-priced eye-candy made by extremely risk-averse studios who happily pop out sequel after sequel … let's look at the top games:


So please - enlighten us about all of those console innovations.
The alleged quote you attributed to me comes from a misquotation operation in the previous post. The incomplete tag was a big hint about it. And you also ruled out the NOT that gave away the tone of the assertion made by another poster and made clear that console gaming was not supposed to be innovative.

I cant respond not only to words that are not mine but also were blatantly expressing an opinion that console gaming does not include innovation.
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May 29th, 2013, 22:55
Originally Posted by Siannah View Post
And that has not been proven at all. On what are such claims based on? Hear-say? Wishful thinking? Marketing speech?
Proven by what? What needs to be proven? That PC gaming is gaming that fully exploits the potential of PCs?
The release of new hardware (especially consoles) is always combined with territorial claims, muscle playing and straight up bragging. Do you believe what that EA-guy Rajat Teneja claimed or that Epic Games Mark Rein called it bullshit?
In the end, you can believe which ever you want. Still doesn't make it "fact" or "proven" - and that's what counts.
How is it connected to the topic at hand? PCs being more powerful as a gaming platform than consoles make it worse. It makes even more blatant that PC gaming is no longer as consoles are the limitating factor to games played on PCs in that case.
That's pretty much the situation for the last 10 years or so. Will that change with the new-gen consoles? Nope.
However, not being mainstream does not equal dead.
PC gaming is not about being mainstream. It is about exploiting to the utmost a PC as a gaming platform.
Back to the point already recalled in the thread: in the past, console hardware started on par or higher than PC, that could explain some things. Now with PCs starting on par or higher than consoles in terms of hardware, all those explanations no longer hold.
It means that even when consoles lag behind, developpers wont take advantage of the superiority of PCs.
Crysis 1, 2 and 3 never happened, nope Sir.
Neither did DirectX 10.1 and 11.
Or the Witcher 2.
100+ players on the same map / battlefield? PC exclusive, sry. Not to mention MMOs where I've seen bigger battles 10 years ago.
Shooters are now console territory. A KB with mouse is inherently a superior interface over a controller. Even against this advantage, consoles managed to make shooters their territory. A masterly feat.

You keep asking for a change compared to the last decade. The Witcher is one big change. The Witcher 2 was developped for PCs(even if you could see that they were preparing the ground for a port to consoles). The Witcher 3 will be not. It will be developped for consoles.

Crisis was a publicized move to try and bring developpers to use directx10. Which was not successful as developpers switched back to directx9.


Edit: if that is your definition of "gaming being dead" then yes, PC gaming is dead and that since years. However, for a dead system that's sure a lot of noise coming from - all those years.
Actually the definition used by people discussing PC gaming, or any type of platform gaming.

X gaming refers to games making the most of the platform. It is not a question of mainstream, numbers etc

Discussing it on other grounds especially grounds implying that PC gaming cant be dead because games are released on PCs or played on PCs is vain. No topic to discuss as one alternative is automatically excluded. PC gaming on this ground will live as long as they are PCs. And they are PCs around. Nothing to report here.
Yes they could have been on PCs five or six years ago - from a technical standpoint. No they couldn't have been, because no publisher was willing to go down that road.
Gamers have been asking for a new Wing Commander, Shadowrun, Ultima, Popoulus or Dungeon Keeper not for years, but decades. Nothing happened. Now and within just 1 year, they all have at least a spiritual successor in the pipeline - and mostly PC only.
More evidences PC gaming is dead. Games that could be released five years ago, coming only now, third world of gaming.
Edit: on a side note - what's the biggest golden cash cow in gaming history? World of Warcraft. A PC exclusive. Not to shabby for a third world game.
PC gaming has never been about number of sales, profits etc
Lucasarts claimed adventures to be dead. Lucasarts left their PC legacy behind, fokusing on consoles. Lucasarts is no more.
Telltale makes a living from adventure games, with the walking dead winning numerous Goty-awards.
Once again, now being mainstream != dead.
Once again, it is the same here. There are adventure games so adventures is not dead.

But dead here has the same meaning as in dead science. Dead science is part of science that is established. Newtonian gravity theory is dead science. It has pratical uses every day but the developpment of it is over. It is now stationary and wont move forward.

After playing the WD adventure games, nothing in them speaks against the assertion that adventure is dead. You can release every year new adventure games but nothing new in them. As a genre, it is dead.
You claim innovation being on consoles, then turn around defending the dumbed down, same old, tried and tested game design type, which you blamed the PC before. That twist must have hurt, man….
It does not hurt at all because there is no twist. Genres that are very often associated with console gaming have seen their gameplay improved over time. It has moved forward. It is a sign that both the industry and the players got their priorities right for these genres. Despite those improvements, claims are made about them being dumbed down etc

Yes, AAA projects are made with consoles in mind - who doubted that? As pointed out, that IS where a few problems with gaming in general nowadays come from.

And yes, PC players will buy those clumsy ports. For 10 bucks or less on the next Steam sale. Yes the publishers ARE hurting from that and blame piracy for the lack of sales on PC, but not the dumbed down, lousy tacked-on PC port. What else is new?
AAA projects are where the innovation can be made because innovating requires means and AAA projects might have means in excess to allocate to innovation.
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May 30th, 2013, 02:25
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
How is it connected to the topic at hand? PCs being more powerful as a gaming platform than consoles make it worse. It makes even more blatant that PC gaming is no longer as consoles are the limitating factor to games played on PCs in that case.
PC gaming not being the top dog isn't new since years and I don't see anyone claiming otherwise. Still doesn't make it dead.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
PC gaming is not about being mainstream. It is about exploiting to the utmost a PC as a gaming platform.
Ermm… no? Never has been, on no system. Pushing tech, improving graphics and what not has always been a driving force, no doubt about it. But that's just 1 factor.
A Tetris was as low-tech as you could be at that time, still it was a worldwide hit game. WoW surely isn't pushing tech, but the envy of the whole business and the asset every publisher would want to have.
There were always games that failed from a technical standpoint, but succeeded in other ways, be it gameplay / story / innovation.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Back to the point already recalled in the thread: in the past, console hardware started on par or higher than PC, that could explain some things. Now with PCs starting on par or higher than consoles in terms of hardware, all those explanations no longer hold.
It means that even when consoles lag behind, developpers wont take advantage of the superiority of PCs.
If you compare solely to PCs yes. However, if you want to compare, you'd have to go with the at that time biggest dog in the computer sector. So roughly speaking C64 vs NES / Master system, Amiga / Atari ST vs Genesis / SNes and so on - and you'd get a different picture.

The main advantage consoles always had and what made them so popular, regardless of what timeframe we're speaking, was their price and accessibility. They were always cheaper and with about 0 configuration problems available then computers.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Shooters are now console territory. A KB with mouse is inherently a superior interface over a controller. Even against this advantage, consoles managed to make shooters their territory. A masterly feat.
Since when is adding auto-aim a masterly feat? Oh and Planetside 2 would like to have a word with you….

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
You keep asking for a change compared to the last decade. The Witcher is one big change. The Witcher 2 was developped for PCs(even if you could see that they were preparing the ground for a port to consoles). The Witcher 3 will be not. It will be developped for consoles.
“The PC was the lead platform for Witcher 2 because it was the most powerful, but that might change in the future,” he says. “The PC allows for more at the moment, but new platforms are stepping up. In the future, it should be much easier to unify the requirements. Some things, like control schemes, will still need to be tailored to the platforms but the new platforms will unify requirements.

This is coming straight from Mr. Badowski. Yes, Witcher 3 is aimed as a multi-platform release. Please notice, that "might change" and "unify" doesn't automagically mean "PC get's the shaft".


Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
More evidences PC gaming is dead. Games that could be released five years ago, coming only now, third world of gaming.
Please check the definition of "being dead"…..
We know publishers didn't wanted to go that way, mostly because the audience on console side wasn't there. Even to imagine a Planescape: Torment nowadays in the hands of console gamers - simply mind boggling. Most probably couldn't grasp it. But you can check wherever you want, it is seen as one of the best RPGs of all times.

While console gamers raged and signed petitions about Bajonetta 2, 74k+ PC gamers thrown 4 millions at a dev to make a new Planescape. Yeah. Definitely dead.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
PC gaming has never been about number of sales, profits etc
No? Right, there weren't companies running or individuals trying to make a living, only amateurs pursuing their hobby….

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
After playing the WD adventure games, nothing in them speaks against the assertion that adventure is dead. You can release every year new adventure games but nothing new in them. As a genre, it is dead.
For what was the walking dead cheered for? The story, choices. From a technical standpoint sure, there's nothing new or done better then others in it.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
It does not hurt at all because there is no twist. Genres that are very often associated with console gaming have seen their gameplay improved over time. It has moved forward. It is a sign that both the industry and the players got their priorities right for these genres. Despite those improvements, claims are made about them being dumbed down etc
Please for the sake of it, start to actually name a few of those improvements or innovations. I may have missed it, but so far I haven't seen even one mentioned that would back up your claims.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
AAA projects are where the innovation can be made because innovating requires means and AAA projects might have means in excess to allocate to innovation.
Innovative AAA console games in the last few years? Please start throwing some names in our general direction….
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May 30th, 2013, 02:59
I think this might be a troll post.

My take on the console is the hardware isn't impressive. Both the xboxone and ps4 have very similar architecture which is more like a PC than previous generations of consoles. But how good a PC is it?

Both consoles have 8 cores @ 1.6GHz with 2*2MB cashe.
My 3 year old cpu has 4 cores @ 4GHz with 8mb cashe.

I wouldn't be surprised if my CPU gave better performance considering my intel cpu beats AMD 8core cpus which are clock far higher than 1.6 and with more cashe.

The videocards on both consoles are like AMD 7000 series.
A 7970 has a little over 2000 shader processing units.
Xbox one has 768 shader units
ps4 has a little over 1100
my 560ti has 380
a 660ti has 1300
a gtxTITAN has 2600

Seems the consoles video is inferior to PC too?

So, what DOES the xbox do? Watch TV? Go on the internet? Play games? Can it type a document though?

CLEARLY inferior to PC in all respects. There's not even a must-have title in sight.
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May 30th, 2013, 03:24
Clear? Oh no, not clear at all. In fact, it's very cloudy! <sorry, couldn't resist>

For each XBox1 sold, there will be three more sitting on the servers. Well, 3 times the CPU power and 3 times the storage anyway.

But can the developers utilize that effectively? From the sound of it, there isn't any help for the GPU so this isn't an OnLive style situation. Can you divide things up that way? Seems like it would be easy in a turn-based strategy game but for live action…?
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May 31st, 2013, 01:50
Originally Posted by Zloth
But can the developers utilize that effectively?
Exactly. A rather more sober look at "the infinite power of the cloud" from Eurogamer:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di…ansform-gaming

Originally Posted by Eurogamer
When you play Battlefield 3 on your Xbox 360, do you have the equivalent power of a dozen Xbox 360s because the server is notionally that powerful?
It's smoke and mirrors.
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June 5th, 2013, 04:35
Wow, very good article Coaster! I think it's all going to be very interesting to watch. It's likely to be a rough start for the console at first while developers think of ways to take advantage of the cloud tech. If they come up with some good ideas, the console will take off. If not, not.
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June 6th, 2013, 10:20
Please read the thread. Most is already answered.

Originally Posted by Siannah View Post
PC gaming not being the top dog isn't new since years and I don't see anyone claiming otherwise. Still doesn't make it dead.
PC gaming is dead because designers no longer think their games based on a PC potential. Read the thread.

Ermm… no? Never has been, on no system. Pushing tech, improving graphics and what not has always been a driving force, no doubt about it. But that's just 1 factor.
A Tetris was as low-tech as you could be at that time, still it was a worldwide hit game. WoW surely isn't pushing tech, but the envy of the whole business and the asset every publisher would want to have.
There were always games that failed from a technical standpoint, but succeeded in other ways, be it gameplay / story / innovation.
As stated in the thread, it is expected that PC games will be examples of graphics whorism. Does not mean PC gaming is not dead. Read the thread.

Tetris was not developped on PC. Its most famous version was on gamepboy. It sells tons on Ipad.
Tetris is certainly not a game that is designed specifically for PCs. It can be ported on PCs.
As written already, if PC games were only tablets ports, people would still support the idea that PC gaming is not dead. Read the thread.
Since when is adding auto-aim a masterly feat? Oh and Planetside 2 would like to have a word with you….
It simply shows that a genre that could be seen so natural to PCs due to an unarguable interface superiority is now natural to consoles. Your example shows PC gaming is dead. When you sacrifice pointing in the shooter genre when there is a platform that makes pointing so much fluider, it tells of the death of that platform.

This is coming straight from Mr. Badowski. Yes, Witcher 3 is aimed as a multi-platform release. Please notice, that "might change" and "unify" doesn't automagically mean "PC get's the shaft".
And that is PR talking. The Witcher 3 is made with console in mind.

Please check the definition of "being dead"…..
We know publishers didn't wanted to go that way, mostly because the audience on console side wasn't there. Even to imagine a Planescape: Torment nowadays in the hands of console gamers - simply mind boggling. Most probably couldn't grasp it. But you can check wherever you want, it is seen as one of the best RPGs of all times.

While console gamers raged and signed petitions about Bajonetta 2, 74k+ PC gamers thrown 4 millions at a dev to make a new Planescape. Yeah. Definitely dead.
I dont buy into that PC elitism. Which is supported by less and less features.

No? Right, there weren't companies running or individuals trying to make a living, only amateurs pursuing their hobby….
Irrelevant. Sales come from games ported on PCs. Again, if games were mostly tablet ports, players will still argue that PC gaming is not dead. Oses come with games like solitaire etc Please read the thread.
For what was the walking dead cheered for? The story, choices. From a technical standpoint sure, there's nothing new or done better then others in it.
Not from a technical point of view, from a gaming point of view.
Please for the sake of it, start to actually name a few of those improvements or innovations. I may have missed it, but so far I haven't seen even one mentioned that would back up your claims.
The shooter genre is associated to console. Play a game like Call of Juarez: gunslinger.
Even the story delivery is well made in this game, and this is a shooter. It shows an accomplished game design, a command that is the result of a genre that has been pushed forward by a communauty that got its priorities right.
Innovative AAA console games in the last few years? Please start throwing some names in our general direction….
Read the sentence. It does not mean that AAA games are forcefully innovative. It reads that innovation come from AAA games as you need means to innovate.
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June 6th, 2013, 10:26
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
I think this might be a troll post.

My take on the console is the hardware isn't impressive. Both the xboxone and ps4 have very similar architecture which is more like a PC than previous generations of consoles. But how good a PC is it?

Both consoles have 8 cores @ 1.6GHz with 2*2MB cashe.
My 3 year old cpu has 4 cores @ 4GHz with 8mb cashe.

I wouldn't be surprised if my CPU gave better performance considering my intel cpu beats AMD 8core cpus which are clock far higher than 1.6 and with more cashe.

The videocards on both consoles are like AMD 7000 series.
A 7970 has a little over 2000 shader processing units.
Xbox one has 768 shader units
ps4 has a little over 1100
my 560ti has 380
a 660ti has 1300
a gtxTITAN has 2600

Seems the consoles video is inferior to PC too?

So, what DOES the xbox do? Watch TV? Go on the internet? Play games? Can it type a document though?

CLEARLY inferior to PC in all respects. There's not even a must-have title in sight.
That is what you get when you do not read a thread.

As written earlier, it is another evidence that PC gaming is dead. As following that opinion that the PC hardware potential is commonly superior to console hardware potential, it means that consoles act as a limiting factor to PC gaming as games design does not take advantage of the PC hardware potential superiority but is tailored to fit the console inferior hardware potential.

As written already, if games played on PCs were mostly ports from tablets, players will still claim that PC gaming is not dead, maybe even showing how much a PC hardware is superior to a tablet hardware.
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June 6th, 2013, 10:56
But PC gaming is booming.

http://au.ign.com/articles/2011/02/2…aming-software
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June 8th, 2013, 12:16
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Tetris was not developped on PC. Its most famous version was on gamepboy. It sells tons on Ipad.
Tetris is certainly not a game that is designed specifically for PCs. It can be ported on PCs.
Tetris was release in 1984 for the C64 and IBM PC. The Gameboy released in 1989. IPad in 2010. Get a clue - or your facts straight.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
When you sacrifice pointing in the shooter genre when there is a platform that makes pointing so much fluider, it tells of the death of that platform.
It proves the dumbing down aspect, coming from the limits a console and it's controllers have as a given.
It also proves, that the console market is that much bigger then the PC market - but who doubted that? It also has been pointed out that this is so, because the initial cost on console side is that much lower.

Now if PC gaming is dead, then please explain why Sony (one of the top console competitors) released Planetside 2 on PC? It just was recently announced to come out for the PS4 too. So, with PC gaming being dead, why bother and don't go for a PS4 exclusive to begin with?

And why, oh why, are consoles getting closer and closer to the PC architecture with each and every new console generation, if PC gaming is so dead?

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
I dont buy into that PC elitism. Which is supported by less and less features.
Call it PC elitism if you want, I'll take that blame. But you Sir, just admitted the dumbing down effect.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
And that is PR talking. The Witcher 3 is made with console in mind.
And once again you have no prove of your claims and dismiss any indication that it might not be so with thin air. You claim it to be, because you said so.

Skyrim changes the appearance of harvested plants - coming from a mod for Oblivion.
You can now unequip a drawn arrow in Skyrim - coming from a mod for Oblivion.
Skyrim added the option to build your home from raw materials with Heartfires and being able to adopt orphaned childrens - both being done with mods on PC before Heartfires was even announced.
PC innovation is as dead as the system is…..

You claim innovation and improvements on consoles and, finally, come up with…. Call of Juarez: gunslinger? I think we're done here.
Last edited by Siannah; June 8th, 2013 at 15:16.
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June 8th, 2013, 15:56
Originally Posted by Siannah View Post
You claim innovation and improvements on consoles and, finally, come up with….
And that is the bottom line - for all the declarations of dead PC gaming and console innovation, it all comes down to sales. And we have known about PC game sales lagging consoles since … I dunno, 2001 or so? The XBOX was the thing that really demonstrated how basically the same game would often sell 10x on consoles.

But that didn't mean PC gaming was dead then, nor that it is dead now. It is a different market with different consumption tendencies. If it was just about sales the games would have stopped years ago. But there are some times it makes no sense to spend all the money on PC optimization, so they don't. That is a good business model - just as sometimes all the work to bring something to console audiences isn't worth it.

As for innovation, the biggest one in recent years on consoles is the Wii. Kinect is basically an evolutionary step from the Wii which they plan to cram down everyone's throat on the XBOX One. Sony released a 'WiiS3' But the games … Nintendo had some interesting active games, but Kinect stuff is all Wii-clones or standard XBOX stuff.

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June 8th, 2013, 16:33
Originally Posted by Siannah View Post
And why, oh why, are consoles getting closer and closer to the PC architecture with each and every new console generation, if PC gaming is so dead?
Because the firms want to replace the PC with a console.

Thus they need both to be similar so that in the end no-one can tell a difference anymore.

“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
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June 9th, 2013, 19:26
Instead of feeding the troll any more, let's all join the Xbox Shun!

Exitus acta probat.
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June 16th, 2013, 09:12
Source: Xbox One Games At E3 Were Running On Windows 7 With Nvidia GTX Cards?

Funny: Microsoft using PCs, Windows 7 instead of 8, Nvidia card while XBone will use a AMD one….

PC gaming dead? No - the way it's meant to be played.
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June 16th, 2013, 23:28
Been working on a radio show with the history of videogame music and I stumbled on this somewhat awkward Windows 95 presentation and found it interesting. Back then Microsoft owned the market. Today Microsoft trying to compete with their own system and make it more locked than widely used.

Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
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June 17th, 2013, 01:21
Jemy, that was more than just somewhat awkward. That was terrible.
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June 17th, 2013, 01:32
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Been working on a radio show with the history of videogame music and I stumbled on this somewhat awkward Windows 95 presentation and found it interesting. Back then Microsoft owned the market. Today Microsoft trying to compete with their own system and make it more locked than widely used.
Wow that was pretty awful - at least they could have turned down the sound effects that looped for the duration of the video. Maybe they had the same people work on that for them that created Balmer's infamous Windows 1.0 commercial. It's kind of funny to consider the absolute circus they put on at E3 and trade shows with all its their production values and remember they used to make things like this . The presentation in the first part of that compilation seems to say more about the dangers of abusing cocaine than anything business related. Of course I'll always miss things like this which is kind of adorable in a Steve Erkel sort of way.

A bit of a tangent, but I think most people here might remember and appreciate this other doom-related video youtube listed under related content:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4yIxUOWrtw
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June 18th, 2013, 18:30
Originally Posted by jhwisner View Post
A bit of a tangent, but I think most people here might remember and appreciate this other doom-related video youtube listed under related content:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4yIxUOWrtw
"If Quake was done today" is in my opinion even more funny !

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June 18th, 2013, 20:45
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post

PC gaming is dead because designers no longer think their games based on a PC potential. Read the thread.
That's since years and that's the best thing that happened to PC gaming. My 7 year old current computer is still performing well many of the recent games, sure not all with max setup but max setup change never changed anything to the gameplay fun.

Pinpoint that PC gaming is the rush to power is the most naive and basic assumption I have read since a long time, record!

It really looks like teens bragging about their PC as the most powerful as if PC was the official represent of how big are their own instrument. There's no link to PC gaming, sure a minority of PC players focus on that but it's not where PC gaming lies.

I'll let you make the exercise yourself, answer to the question, what's really different?
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