|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Gamasutra - Sexism and Sexuality In Games

Default Gamasutra - Sexism and Sexuality In Games

June 23rd, 2013, 12:15
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Sex is also incredibly boring unless you're actually doing it. Well, at least to me.

I mean porn is fine and serves its purpose - but to actually sit down and play a sex game would be a complete waste of time, as far as I'm concerned.
Yes. Driving is also incredibly boring. Particularly while actually doing it. At least to me. Doesn't prevent driving games from being very popular, though.

Actually, I think driving games have a lot in common with a hypothetical erotic game. Test Drive Unlimited lets you drive exclusive cars that most of us could only dream of driving in real life. Pure escapism and pure car pornography. Similarly, a good erotic game would let you engage in sexual activities you could only dream of in real life. Pure escapism also.

That said, I would prefer a deep RPG, complete with with lots of character creation options, quests, choice and consequence etc, all in a detailed sexually themed exotic setting, rather than some sex simulator akin to a simple driving game.
Mr Smiley is offline

Mr Smiley

Mr Smiley's Avatar
Watchdog

#41

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 162

Default 

June 23rd, 2013, 12:46
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
Still many would be offended by the content in these mods.
I would be offended by lackluster gameplay… which probably is the case there.

Pretty much any concept in the vein of "imagine a roleplaying game where you [X] instead of combat" is outright fail.

"In Grimwhoah, you can ride on turtles."
Sacred_Path is offline

Sacred_Path

Sacred_Path's Avatar
Basement Horror

#42

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 994

Default 

June 23rd, 2013, 13:01
Originally Posted by Mr Smiley View Post
Yes. Driving is also incredibly boring. Particularly while actually doing it. At least to me. Doesn't prevent driving games from being very popular, though.
Sex games aren't very popular - and there's probably a reason no one has bothered to make a really good one.

That's kinda my point.

I'm not ruling out that sex simulations/RPGs can be popular with some people - I just don't think the market is very big.

Actually, I think driving games have a lot in common with a hypothetical erotic game. Test Drive Unlimited lets you drive exclusive cars that most of us could only dream of driving in real life. Pure escapism and pure car pornography. Similarly, a good erotic game would let you engage in sexual activities you could only dream of in real life. Pure escapism also.
I don't think driving games are about living a dream - but about adrenaline and excitement. It's an effective simulation that can stimulate the senses in a way that's very similar to real driving - especially if you use a wheel and what not.

I don't think the same is the case for sex simulation at all - because there's no way to stimulate the senses that's convincing enough - and the frustration level can potentially be quite high.

However, if you really think such a game could be super interesting and stimulating - then I hope you'll get one.

It might be an interesting experiment - but ultimately, I think it would fail to entertain most people to the degree you seem to expect.

That said, I would prefer a deep RPG, complete with with lots of character creation options, quests, choice and consequence etc, all in a detailed sexually themed exotic setting, rather than some sex simulator akin to a simple driving game.
Hmm, not sure what that would be like - but my imagination tells me it would be extremely boring compared to a traditional RPG setting. Maybe you have a better imagination than I, though.
DArtagnan is offline

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#43

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 15,258

Default 

June 23rd, 2013, 13:07
Originally Posted by Sacred_Path View Post
I would be offended by lackluster gameplay… which probably is the case there.

Pretty much any concept in the vein of "imagine a roleplaying game where you [X] instead of combat" is outright fail.
I'm sure they are. You can't ignore Date Sims and Hentai games though. They both are a big business and successful. Also the whole point is [X] instead of combat.

I don't recommend them but there is a market for them.

"It's quite simple my word is the law around here, and failure to comply means termination."

RPGWatch News Editor & Moderator
Couchpotato is offline

Couchpotato

Couchpotato's Avatar
Evil Potato Overlord
RPGWatch Team

#44

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Potato Land
Posts: 10,693

Default 

June 23rd, 2013, 13:08
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
I'm sure they are. You can't ignore Date Sims and Hentai games though. They both are a big business and successful. Also the whole point is [X] instead of combat.

I don't recommend them but there is a market for them.
Of course I meant a failure in the artistic and conceptual sense. Not that you can't find a poor sucker who'll take it off your hands.

"In Grimwhoah, you can ride on turtles."
Sacred_Path is offline

Sacred_Path

Sacred_Path's Avatar
Basement Horror

#45

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 994

Default 

June 23rd, 2013, 13:54
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
Those mods are nothing but porn with plot. I guess there a good example that it can be done I guess. There are a few more nwn 1+2 mods like those also.

Still many would be offended by the content in these mods.
I disagree.

Some of the best conversations I've seen in any mod is in A Dance with Rogues.
Thief skills matter - entire levels can be solved without combat.
Porn elements are rare - most scenes evolve only in your brain and through conversation not graphically.
Combat is challenging - the story is full of twists and alternative pathes.

A Dance with Rogues is a Top 20 Mod at NWN Vault with an average rating of 9.88 out of 10. So many CRPG players agree with me

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - HL Mencken
HiddenX is offline

HiddenX

HiddenX's Avatar
The Elder Spy
RPGWatch Donor

#46

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NRW/Germany
Posts: 4,544

Default 

June 23rd, 2013, 14:52
Originally Posted by Mr Smiley View Post
But each medium has its own strengths. And I actually think that games and erotica would be a perfect fit. Why? Because sex and what turns you on is a very personal thing. And compared to books and movies, games excel at creating a personal experience.
How would you go about doing it though? Other than just putting in some porno cut scenes or something. The kind of decisions you make in most games might really just amount to selecting which particular porno clip you get to see.
Roq is offline

Roq

Seeker
RPGWatch Donor

#47

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Somerset/London UK
Posts: 982

Default 

June 23rd, 2013, 15:53
It doesn't have to be porn to be about sex!… Games could do it by getting inspiration from literature and cinema, like they do in other cases.

I did a quick google search for 'films about sex' and this imdb list came up:
http://www.imdb.com/list/R8j7GgCmxqs/
It looks solid. I've seen many of these films, not all but probably most, and as far as I can tell they are all worth watching and I think there isn't a single one that would qualify as porn among them.

"I am not interested in good; I am interested in new, even if this includes the possibility of it's being evil"
(LaMonte Young, 1962)
holeraw is offline

holeraw

holeraw's Avatar
V.G.A.

#48

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 693

Default 

June 23rd, 2013, 17:38
Originally Posted by Sacred_Path View Post
Pretty much any concept in the vein of "imagine a roleplaying game where you [X] instead of combat" is outright fail.
I very much hope that you are wrong. Combat is tried and tested, safe and simple. The easy way out for developers and players alike. Almost any other activity seems more difficult to implement. But not impossible.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I don't think the same is the case for sex simulation at all - because there's no way to stimulate the senses that's convincing enough - and the frustration level can potentially be quite high.
Nonsense. Don't you know that the most erogenous zone of all is your brain? Erotica only needs to stimulate your imagination. Regular porn doesn't stimulate the senses beyond sound and vision anyway.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Hmm, not sure what that would be like - but my imagination tells me it would be extremely boring compared to a traditional RPG setting. Maybe you have a better imagination than I, though.
As mentioned, I could imagine something like a game based upon Piers Anthony's Cluster series, where your character would have to figure out an alien culture and its sexuality, come to understand what turns the aliens on and learn how to perform satisfying alien sex.

I also remember playing an old text adventure named Leather Goddesses of Phobos. It wasn't as sexy as the title would have you believe, not even on the "lewd" setting, but let your imagination take the title and run with it…
Mr Smiley is offline

Mr Smiley

Mr Smiley's Avatar
Watchdog

#49

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 162

Default 

June 23rd, 2013, 21:12
Originally Posted by Mr Smiley View Post
Nonsense. Don't you know that the most erogenous zone of all is your brain? Erotica only needs to stimulate your imagination. Regular porn doesn't stimulate the senses beyond sound and vision anyway.
What a cop-out. Do you ejaculate by thinking? Try again, please.

If you want it as alternative porn - then fine, but I thought you were talking about something interesting.

Sure, you can stimulate imagination - but you don't need much at all for that. Especially if we're talking the male audience here. All you need is a pair of breasts - or a hot bit of text for that.

Creating an entire game with sophisticated gameplay just to turn people on seems like a massive waste of time to me.

As mentioned, I could imagine something like a game based upon Piers Anthony's Cluster series, where your character would have to figure out an alien culture and its sexuality, come to understand what turns the aliens on and learn how to perform satisfying alien sex.
Yeah, that sounds really boring to me. Maybe that's because alien sexuality is pretty far down my list when it comes to what I'd want to explore in a game.
DArtagnan is offline

DArtagnan

DArtagnan's Avatar
Waste of potential

#50

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 15,258

Default 

June 23rd, 2013, 22:19
There is some good literature with erotic elements out there that could be translated into video games, for example:

Confessions of Felix Krull confidence man by Thomas Mann
best con-man ever

Story of my Life
by Casanova
enough said

Empire Triology by Janny Wurts & Raymond E. Feist
why isn't this already a video game?

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - HL Mencken
HiddenX is offline

HiddenX

HiddenX's Avatar
The Elder Spy
RPGWatch Donor

#51

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NRW/Germany
Posts: 4,544

Default 

June 23rd, 2013, 22:34
Originally Posted by Mr Smiley View Post
I very much hope that you are wrong. Combat is tried and tested, safe and simple. The easy way out for developers and players alike. Almost any other activity seems more difficult to implement. But not impossible.
It seems we can arrive at two different conclusions:

1) combat is the easy way out

2) combat is a great gameplay component for RPGs

I'd say it's 2 with a smattering of 1. Take, for example, the great amount of micromanagement prior to combat. Would the same level of meticulosity be fun in a dating simulator? How would you make the player care so much? Would a failure to seduce result in the player's "defeat" and practically end the game?

"In Grimwhoah, you can ride on turtles."
Sacred_Path is offline

Sacred_Path

Sacred_Path's Avatar
Basement Horror

#52

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 994

Default 

June 24th, 2013, 00:04
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Most guys in longer marriages have to take their wives to dinner and romance them every which way before she gets in the mood. The sign thing sounds a lot easier - cheaper!
If one can set aside how degrading and truly pathetic it is, the easiness and inexpensiveness are great. Just put on the sign and wait (and with any luck, wait less).

If I'm right but there is no wife around to acknowledge it, am I still right?
TheMadGamer is offline

TheMadGamer

TheMadGamer's Avatar
SasqWatch

#53

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,022

Default 

June 24th, 2013, 00:22
Originally Posted by Sacred_Path View Post
Take, for example, the great amount of micromanagement prior to combat. Would the same level of meticulosity be fun in a dating simulator? How would you make the player care so much? Would a failure to seduce result in the player's "defeat" and practically end the game?
When did defeat in combat ever end the game? Story and setting make the player care. In case of sexual failure, you would not even have to reload or have your character magically resurrected in order to try again.

And yes, I think micromanagement prior to seduction could be just as fun as micromanagement prior to combat. Hey, I'm willing to try micromanagement in a gardening simulator. I bet there would be a huge market for a good gardening simulator.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
What a cop-out. Do you ejaculate by thinking? Try again, please.
Cop-out? I just answered your ridiculous claim about "stimulating the senses". Imagination is what matters. Try again.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
If you want it as alternative porn - then fine, but I thought you were talking about something interesting.
The porn discussion is a side note, really. But I do think that sex could play a more important role in games. People who claim that sex is anything but interesting are usually prudes. What's your excuse?

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Creating an entire game with sophisticated gameplay just to turn people on seems like a massive waste of time to me.
No more waste of time than creating an entire game with sophisticated gameplay that doesn't turn people on.
Mr Smiley is offline

Mr Smiley

Mr Smiley's Avatar
Watchdog

#54

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 162

Default 

June 24th, 2013, 00:58
Originally Posted by Mr Smiley View Post
When did defeat in combat ever end the game?
lolwut? How many RPGs do you know where the death of all characters in combat does not end the game?

Story and setting make the player care. In case of sexual failure, you would not even have to reload or have your character magically resurrected in order to try again.
Which is exactly my point. There would either be negligible consequences for failure, which wouldn't make the player care at all, or if the consequences were drastic, that would be goofy.

Hey, I'm willing to try micromanagement in a gardening simulator. I bet there would be a huge market for a good gardening simulator.
hey good 2 know your statements are joke posts. kthxbye

"In Grimwhoah, you can ride on turtles."
Sacred_Path is offline

Sacred_Path

Sacred_Path's Avatar
Basement Horror

#55

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 994

Default 

June 24th, 2013, 01:20
Originally Posted by Sacred_Path View Post
lolwut? How many RPGs do you know where the death of all characters in combat does not end the game?
You usually reload and try again. It does not actually end the game, since you keep playing.

Originally Posted by Sacred_Path View Post
There would either be negligible consequences for failure, which wouldn't make the player care at all, or if the consequences were drastic, that would be goofy.
Failure in a game usually means that you try again, one way or another. A game where failure does not equal death actually allows for more interesting consequences within the narrative of the game. Having to reload is not a consequense at all within the game, since it turns out that the failure/death never happened in the story arc of your character. How much you care is a question of immersion.

And I'm not joking about a gardening simulator.
Mr Smiley is offline

Mr Smiley

Mr Smiley's Avatar
Watchdog

#56

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 162

Default 

June 24th, 2013, 01:28
Originally Posted by Mr Smiley View Post
You usually reload and try again. It does not actually end the game, since you keep playing.
Eh, I don't deal in weak semantics. BTW, IMO the only way to play a game with a heavy dose of randomness (like CRPGs) is to play without reloads.

Let's put it like this: the consequences of failure are drastic, because forcing you to reload is the greatest setback the game can enforce on you short of resetting your PC.

Failure in a game usually means that you try again, one way or another. A game where failure does not equal death actually allows for more interesting consequences within the narrative of the game.
You're pursuing a tangent now though; you don't have to cut out combat to create a design that doesn't rely on reloads.

My point still stands; how would you make the player care about failure, with an intensity equal to combat, without actually engagin in combat?

"In Grimwhoah, you can ride on turtles."
Sacred_Path is offline

Sacred_Path

Sacred_Path's Avatar
Basement Horror

#57

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 994

Default 

June 24th, 2013, 01:40
Originally Posted by Sacred_Path View Post
My point still stands; how would you make the player care about failure, with an intensity equal to combat, without actually engagin in combat?
Combat (in a game) is not necessarily intense, engaging or even interesting just because it's combat. I have played games with very dull combat indeed. And Tetris makes you care intensely about geometrical shapes. As I said, it's all about immersion. A good gardening simulator would make me care intensely about pest control and pruning.
Mr Smiley is offline

Mr Smiley

Mr Smiley's Avatar
Watchdog

#58

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 162

Default 

June 24th, 2013, 01:54
This discussion is more complicated than it needs to be.

Why would I give a shit about sex in games when that's something I can do in real life?

No, I'd much rather be doing things that I could only fantasize about doing in reality - like flying a spacecraft or doing battle with a mythical beast.
JDR13 is offline

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch

#59

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 18,242

Default 

June 24th, 2013, 02:05
Originally Posted by Mr Smiley View Post
Combat (in a game) is not necessarily intense, engaging or even interesting just because it's combat. I have played games with very dull combat indeed. And Tetris makes you care intensely about geometrical shapes. As I said, it's all about immersion. A good gardening simulator would make me care intensely about pest control and pruning.
So what you're saying is that bad games can be bad despite having combat. Which isn't really the point of this discussion.

Tetris isn't an RPG, so it doesn't pertain to this discussion either. I can enjoy many types of games, but games that claim to be RPGs where the combat is ripped out to be replaced by something else tend to be problematic.

"In Grimwhoah, you can ride on turtles."
Sacred_Path is offline

Sacred_Path

Sacred_Path's Avatar
Basement Horror

#60

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 994
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Gamasutra - Sexism and Sexuality In Games
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:08.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright by RPGWatch