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Default D&D Character building and other NWN2 advice

July 4th, 2013, 12:07
After an embarrassingly long abstinence from serious gaming I thought I'd bite the bullet and finally give NWN 2 a proper go. I picked it mainly due to MotB's reputation (I'd kill for anything that reminds me of PS:T, + it should be even better VO'd) and while I know (or at least have read) that the OC is not a requirement I'm willing to give it a go.

I am however an absolute D&D noob. I'm only completed KOTOR1&2 (irrelevant?) and PS:T (and that with a character build guide at hand and Dak'kon + Morte doing the heavy lifting). I messed around with Baldurs Gate 2, Icewind Dale and NWN a long long time ago but never enough to get to know the rules well. Due to PS:T I am familiar with the concepts of THCA0 and AC but that's about it.

So I come to you for help and advice. Unlike PS:T in which high WIS and INT characters were quite clearly preferred NWN2 has about 4 times the choices I'm used to While I'm not in it for the ruleset, I know that I generally prefer mages and making the most out of the social opportunities and therefore I'm fairly confident that I need to get a wizard with high WIS, INT and CHA yet the specifics are lost on me.

If there's anyone willing to drop a few hints or even suggest a built/plan that would most importantly enable me to RP in quests and secondly be decent in combat I'll be thankful. I also want to be fairly cautious because the character can afaik be imported into MotB which I care more about and would rather the transition be as good as possible both in gameplay and story terms (if possible?).

On another note: While I have been and will continue to scan this subforum for any kind of advice I'd appreciate you dropping any hints that could make my playthough better. From technical tweaks to in-game trivia. I've so far installed the game on my SSD due to the numerous loading screens and armed myself with enough patience to deal with the slow start and the horrible camera.

Thanks for reading!

I'd just like to interject here and point out that I'm not going to say anything to spoil the mood, Chief. I'll just float here and watch. Don't mind me, just sitting here, floating and watching, that's me.
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July 4th, 2013, 12:53
Originally Posted by Kostas View Post
Due to PS:T I am familiar with the concepts of THCA0 and AC but that's about it.
Forget about what you learned from PS:T. That used the D&D 2nd Edition rule-set. NWN2 uses 3.5 rules. AC works differently (higher number = better) and there is no THACO.

Other than that, I can't be much help.
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July 4th, 2013, 13:21
AFAIK, you don't get to roleplay to the same extent in NWN2. You probably need 10-12+ in CHA/INT for some of it, though. Honestly can't remember.

As for doing well in combat - that's more of a science than you'd think, because D&D 3.5 is extremely complex when it comes to creating optimal characters.

If you want the simple approach - one somewhat imbalanced feature of D&D is that strength boosts both your damage and your ability to hit enemies. If you're creating a fighter of almost any kind - and you want to optimise output, you need to focus on strength after having covered what else you need. If you go dual wielding - you'll need some dex for those feats, or you can pick a Ranger level to get them for free (IIRC).

But the super simple approach is just to go Fighter all the way - and focus on Greatsword - as it's the most powerful weapon in the game, and STR bonus gives you 150% damage - because you're wielding the sword in both hands. Pick obvious feats like Cleave, Great Cleave and Improved Critical - and you'll be able to do well in the vast majority of fights. Use your party members to cover the tricky stuff.
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July 4th, 2013, 13:23
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
AC works differently (higher number = better) and there is no THACO.
Already sounds like a huge improvement. They were both so unnecessarily convoluted.

I'd just like to interject here and point out that I'm not going to say anything to spoil the mood, Chief. I'll just float here and watch. Don't mind me, just sitting here, floating and watching, that's me.
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July 4th, 2013, 13:43
There are few duels in NWN 2 that are very hard for pure warrior like.
Spoiler
You might need character with decent Cha and diplomacy especially for MotB to experience game properly.Cleric or Favored soul(Uses Cha as main stat, weaker spells than cleric but it gains weapon feats based on diety+ some other bonuses, he can also cast lot more) + some of prestige class would be good, or even paladin this are easy classes to build and to play with.
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July 4th, 2013, 13:45
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
AFAIK, you don't get to roleplay to the same extent in NWN2. You probably need 10-12+ in CHA/INT for some of it, though. Honestly can't remember.

As for doing well in combat - that's more of a science than you'd think, because D&D 3.5 is extremely complex when it comes to creating optimal characters.

If you want the simple approach - one somewhat imbalanced feature of D&D is that strength boosts both your damage and your ability to hit enemies. If you're creating a fighter of almost any kind - and you want to optimise output, you need to focus on strength after having covered what else you need. If you go dual wielding - you'll need some dex for those feats, or you can pick a Ranger level to get them for free (IIRC).

But the super simple approach is just to go Fighter all the way - and focus on Greatsword - as it's the most powerful weapon in the game, and STR bonus gives you 150% damage - because you're wielding the sword in both hands. Pick obvious feats like Cleave, Great Cleave and Improved Critical - and you'll be able to do well in the vast majority of fights. Use your party members to cover the tricky stuff.
Think I'll try to give it a go with a mage, even if that takes a few builds to get right. The idea of fighters always bored me. Besides, from an RP respective (although I'm not sure if it applies to stats or if it's just me going OCD) INT is the most important stat. I'm confused about the usefulness of WIS (my 2nd most important stat) since apparently the game has separate Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidation skills which all depend on CHA.

I'd just like to interject here and point out that I'm not going to say anything to spoil the mood, Chief. I'll just float here and watch. Don't mind me, just sitting here, floating and watching, that's me.
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July 4th, 2013, 13:53
Originally Posted by Nameless one View Post
There are few duels in NWN 2 that are very hard for pure warrior like.
Spoiler
You might need character with decent Cha and diplomacy especially for MotB to experience game properly.Cleric or Favored soul(Uses Cha as main stat, weaker spells than cleric but it gains weapon feats based on diety+ some other bonuses, he can also cast lot more) + some of prestige class would be good, or even paladin this are easy classes to build and to play with.
Hate to be stubborn but I think RP-wise a cleric or any of the deity-tied classes would suit me. Thanks for the tip about CHA though, should I go for something like 14 in it if I pick a Wizard or a Sorcerer?

I'd just like to interject here and point out that I'm not going to say anything to spoil the mood, Chief. I'll just float here and watch. Don't mind me, just sitting here, floating and watching, that's me.
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July 4th, 2013, 14:01
Well diplomacy is lot more important than Cha so you don't need too much.But if you want to go guns blazing I would recommend Barbarian+frenzied berserker.
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July 4th, 2013, 15:21
Spellcasting with its feats and counter-spells can be pretty complex in D&D 3.5 (that goes for everything in the ruleset though - the powers that be really went overboard on its new player learning curve). I'd second Dart's recommendation on going with a fighter for at least the Original Campaign until you can get a handle on things.

Still, if you're committed to wizard, your intelligence is your lifeblood; contrastly, charisma for a sorcerer. Not only do you eventually need at least level 19 in your respective stat to cast level 9 spells, but the higher it is, the harder it is for enemies to resist your spells. You'll get a single stat increase every four levels but that doesn't mean your initial stats shouldn't be mulled over carefully. I'd recommend something like 12str/8dex/18int/16con/8cha for a wizard. You could also drop down to 16 starting int for a more balanced character.

-strength: how much damage you do in melee combat; generally how well you manage to hit in melee combat; how much you can carry!
-dexterity: tied to your armor class, provided your worn armor allows the bonus; how well you hit in ranged combat; tied to your reflex save!
-constitution: not to be ignored by anyone especially a wizard who only gets 1-4 hit points per level. For each two points of con, you also gain 1 hit point per level. Retroactive.
-wisdom: for your purposes, simply tied to your will save.
-intelligence: see above. Also determines how many skill points per level you get.
-charisma: for your purposes, will mainly be used to affect charisma-based skills such as appraise and diplomacy. (assuming you don't go sorcerer)

Bear in mind that each of the above stats don't do anything for you in 1 point increments. Associated improvements only happen at even values.

Under your skils as a wizard, you'll want to pay extra attention to spellcraft and concentration.
I'm confused about the usefulness of WIS
All skills, whether it be concentration, spot, taunt, etc are tied to a specific stat. You'll get bonuses (or penalties) depending on that stat. So, for example, if your constitution is 16, that will yield a +3 modifier for any skills (such as concentration) that are linked to it. From a non-RP perspective, I really would not consider wisdom that important whatsoever for a wizard. Not only are your Will saves already very high on a wizard, but the only skills tied to wisdom are heal, listen, and spot - all very lackluster skills IMO.

Lastly, I definitely do NOT recommend a sorcerer for you. Not only will you have fewer spells to experiment with but it will be more difficult to exchange them for other spells in comparison with a wizard.
Last edited by Drithius; July 4th, 2013 at 15:50.
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July 4th, 2013, 15:51
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
Spellcasting with its feats and counter-spells can be pretty complex in D&D 3.5 (that goes for everything in the ruleset though - the powers that be really went overboard on its new player learning curve). I'd second Dart's recommendation on going with a fighter for at least the Original Campaign until you can get a handle on things.

Still, if you're committed to wizard, your intelligence is your lifeblood; contrastly, charisma for a sorcerer. Not only do you eventually need at least level 19 in your respective stat to cast level 9 spells, but the higher it is, the harder it is for enemies to resist your spells. You'll get a single stat increase every four levels but that doesn't mean your initial stats shouldn't be mulled over carefully. I'd recommend something like 12str/8dex/18int/16con/8cha for a wizard. You could also drop down to 16 starting int for a more balanced character.

-strength: how much damage you do in melee combat; generally how well you manage to hit in melee combat; how much you can carry!
-dexterity: tied to your armor class, provided your worn armor allows the bonus; how well you hit in ranged combat; tied to your reflex save!
-constitution: not to be ignored by anyone especially a wizard who only gets 1-4 hit points per level. For each two points of con, you also gain 1 hit point per level. Retroactive.
-wisdom: for your purposes, simply tied to your will save.
-intelligence: see above. Also determines how many skill points per level you get.
-charisma: for your purposes, will mainly be used to affect charisma-based skills such as appraise and diplomacy. (assuming you don't go sorcerer)

Bear in mind that each of the above stats don't do anything for you in 1 point increments. Associated improvements only happen at even values.

Under your skils as a wizard, you'll want to pay extra attention to spellcraft and concentration.

Lastly, I definitely do NOT recommend a sorcerer for you. Not only will you have fewer spells to experiment with but it will be more difficult to exchange them for other spells in comparison with a wizard.
Thanks a lot for the detailed breakdown and the suggested values.

Just a couple of questions: From the bit of reading that I've done both ingame and on the web I had the impression STR and CON are dump stats for casters and DEX is the one that they depend for surviving. Furthermore the built looks a tad too minmaxing, (thought starting with any one stat over 16 wasn't recommended) won't that be a problem early on? I was *thinking* of bringing everything up to 10-11 (good to know about the even values thing) and then spend the remaining on the 3 main stats
Hope that doesn't come off as too argumentative. It's meant to be inquiring.

Thanks for clearing up the Wisdom thing. Looks almost useless. I'm glad PS:T utilized it in the way it did. While I can see how the "new" skills are better from a mechanics and balancing point of view I can think of a few occasions where a [Wisdom] dialogue option could not fall under any of the 3 new skills. That is if they really didn't use it by itself in the NWNs or used it as sparsely as it looks.

I'd just like to interject here and point out that I'm not going to say anything to spoil the mood, Chief. I'll just float here and watch. Don't mind me, just sitting here, floating and watching, that's me.
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July 4th, 2013, 16:12
Generally, unless your multiclassing rogue and wizard, dexterity is fairly pointless (on a wizard!). The only thing it grants is a point or two of AC and reflex saves. Your AC is always going to be pitiful on a wizard and your main line of defense will be things like stoneskin, displacement, and… distance. As for reflex saves, while they are very important for certain classes in the midst of traps and enemy fireballs, it's a bad investment of stat points if that's all you're getting from raising dex. It's a better investment for dual wielding melee, archers, and/or rogues.

Constitution, as I outlined above is far more important to your longevity as a wizard. Not only do you get far more health, but it's also tied to your fortitude save (important for resisting death magics as well as poison & disease). 18 starting con is indeed a bit of min-maxing, but, of all classes, wizard has practically the fewest stats tied to it as a class so it's still an affordable expenditure. Nevertheless, 16 starting con is more balanced if you prefer a more balanced character.

As for strength, you shouldn't ignore it simply from a functional character perspective. Characters with 8 strength can only carry 53lbs. You can cast Bull's Strength to help yourself out but I personally find this tedious.
Last edited by Drithius; July 4th, 2013 at 16:33.
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July 4th, 2013, 16:36
Good old inventory management, by far the worst of all the plagues the RPG gods have sent upon mortals.

Reading your posts and realizing the difference the skill points will make and the importance of concentration I'm all for starting with 12STR, 8DEX, 16CON, 18INT. I assume you'd recommend putting the remaining 2 points to wisdom (rather than charisma)?

I'd just like to interject here and point out that I'm not going to say anything to spoil the mood, Chief. I'll just float here and watch. Don't mind me, just sitting here, floating and watching, that's me.
Last edited by Kostas; July 4th, 2013 at 16:48. Reason: damn typos
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July 4th, 2013, 16:52
Salt to taste It's a matter of personal choice really. I'd maybe go with increasing dex for the extra reflex. Your Will Save will already be high as a wizard, but your fortitude and reflex saves will be roughly half. If you go here, you can see this under the "class features".

Regardless, those are more than solid starting stats, you can't go wrong.

…Now, insofar as having a more "Nameless One"-like experience, you'll probably want to throw some of your many skill points towards diplomacy and/or intimidate. I'm not too keen on just how many situations there are to use them in the OC, though. It's been forever and a day since I last played NWN2.
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July 4th, 2013, 17:15
Think I'll go with WIS to maintain some sense of immersion. Also saving throws were present in both PS:T and the Kotors and I never bothered understanding them so hopefully I'll get away with it

What about multiclassing/prestige classes and whatever changes, besides the increased cap, MotB brings? I understand multiclassing and prestige classes do not require questing like in DA:O so it's mostly about altering the playstyle and new skills/feats/spells?

Is the character transfer to MotB just about the numbers or is there a story connection (one which could potentially render the transfer theoretically impossible as in DA:O -> Awakening)?

Last and probably least, is there anything I just have to grab from this thread or nwn vault for either of the 2 campaings I'm planning to play (like the apparently famous PrC pack)? I know that NWN2 was a mess upon release and the activity related to the main campaign suggests 2 years of patching weren't enough.

I'd just like to interject here and point out that I'm not going to say anything to spoil the mood, Chief. I'll just float here and watch. Don't mind me, just sitting here, floating and watching, that's me.
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July 4th, 2013, 17:25
Just grab the official patch. I've never encountered half the problems that people like to moan about.

There is indeed a story connection between the OC and MotB. not sure what you mean by the Awakening reference as I have yet to play it. …edit, oh wait, maybe I do - no, there isn't any impregnating demon children and subsequently dying.

Prestige classes… well, let's just say that some of them require planning. Just as a good multiclass build starts with planning before you hit the character creation screen, so too does incorporating a prestige class. Think of them, for the most part, as a specialization of the skills you've been learning all along. I haven't played NWN2 in too long a time to give you accurate advice on where you'd want to go in that realm unfortunately, especially as an arcane spellcaster. All I can say is that they generally have feat and skill pre-requisites.

One thing I just recalled, on skill checks in dialogue. In addition to the standard checks against your bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy skills, there is also often a check against the lore skill. Just as important, you do not need to have all these skills on a single character, you can opt to have your party's various members talk to a specific npc instead of your own character.
Last edited by Drithius; July 4th, 2013 at 17:42.
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July 5th, 2013, 01:01
Cheers for that. Lore sounds like it would suit my character so I may prioritize it over intimidation. I'm sure I'll work the Prestige classes out, besides a 20lvl wizard supposedly kicks ass. So much for keeping the DA:O thing spoiler-free

I'd just like to interject here and point out that I'm not going to say anything to spoil the mood, Chief. I'll just float here and watch. Don't mind me, just sitting here, floating and watching, that's me.
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July 5th, 2013, 01:41
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
recommend something like 12str/8dex/18int/16con/8cha for a wizard. You could also drop down to 16 starting int for a more balanced character.
Personally I would find such a build to be rather risky. 8 dex will really hurt your AC, and I for one find AC to be more important than HP. At 8 dex enemies will almost automatically hit you.

For a wizard, I would value the stats in this order:
int>Dex>Con>Str>tie between Wis & Cha.
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July 5th, 2013, 13:37
A Problem with NWN 2 OC is the enormous amount of Filler-Combat, so my wizards had to fall back to their heavy crossbows a lot. A few spells need a ranged touch attack to succeed (Scorching Ray i.e.), so I recommend Dex 14 (or 16 with an Elf).

My favourite Wizard-Build is probably

10/14/14/18/10/8

My favourite OC-Build was a Ranger/Wizard/Eldritch-Knight/Arcane Scholar
He was pretty good at casting, decend at ranged combat (Longbow, racial enemy Undead), and was a bit tougher then a pure wizard (used 14/14/14/14/12/12 for this one (14/14/14/16/10/10 would probably have been better), also the Able Learner, Practiced Caster and Weapon Focus Longbow feat. Ended Level 1/5/10/4 in the OC and 3/7/10/10 in MotB IIRC. After Level 1/5/1 this build is also highly costumizable between Caster and Gish

For a Caster is Spellcasting Prodigy a must have Feat IMO.

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July 7th, 2013, 10:20
You might enjoy a Sorcerer more than a Wizard. They use Charisma as their casting stat and have Bluff as a class skill. You'll want to use the Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep prestige class, and that has Diplomacy. If you also keep Spellcraft and Lore maximised, you'll find you have lots of extra dialouge choices through the OC and especially MoTB which has a lot of Lore and Spellcraft dialogue options.

I still get 14 Int as a Sorc, because I like skills. 5 per level is heaps. You can probably dump Wis, because your will saves will be fine anyway and it doesn't really affect dialogue options. Str will let you carry more, but you have companions for that, and belts with +4 Str. And magic bags. You want as much Dex and Con as you can get, and to make sure you choose some defensive buff spells.

Spellcasting Prodigy is basically mandatory at first level. Leave crafting feats to companions. Metamagic and the improved metamagic that ASoC gets especially, is very powerful.
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July 7th, 2013, 18:28
I'm already quite a few hours in the game (guess I'm just about to enter Blackwater), so I can give a few preliminary impressions on both the build and the game.

I went with the build in post #12 and while my 7lvl Wizard is a bit of a glass cannon I end up quickly killing off my foes before dying in 4/5 situations, and since I haven't been forced to be organized I'm confident the build is a success at least as far a combat it concerned.

If there's one problem with it it's the fact that the since Diplomacy is a cross-class skill it's capped at half of what the class skills can be and despite my wearing every Diplomacy boosting item I've come across I still fail about 80% of the checks (could it also/alternatively be related to ability modifiers?) which may become annoying when there's greater things at stake.

In fact I'd say I have more skill points than skills to spend them on. Lore, Spellcraft and Consentration are the obvious always maxed out options and besides spending a 2 points on Diplomacy and Bluff every 2 levels I really had nothing worthwile to spend my skill points on. I spent some on the crafting skills after reading how it pays back but crafting seems overwhelming enough to either not bother or leave it to my companions as Badesumofu suggests.

Originally Posted by Badesumofu View Post
You'll want to use the Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep prestige class, and that has Diplomacy. If you also keep Spellcraft and Lore maximised, you'll find you have lots of extra dialouge choices through the OC and especially MoTB which has a lot of Lore and Spellcraft dialogue options.
Thanks a lot for that bit of info. I'll make sure to prioritize both skills even more. ASoC sounds intresting and if the requirement here are correct I might go for it. I'm not sure if I'll get enough feats since I've already "wasted" 2 but even if I get them in early MotB it shouldn't be a problem.

Cheers to everyone for the tips.

Edit: On the game: My first few hours were full of negative remarks but after getting to Neverwinter things got better, mostly due to habit and a more involving plot. With that being said the game is still the worst executed RPG (from a technical point of view) I've played in years. Slowest start ever, a crime of a camera system, useless autosave and most importantly an overall awkwardness that makes me feel the game doesn't want to be at times in 3D and at others a video-game at all.

I certainly understand remember why it didn't grab me the first time and gladly realize my unfamiliarity with DnD had absolutely nothing to do with it. I've now gotten used to fighting the game so I can concentrate on the good bits. Oh and I hate Qara more than any companion in any RPG (even Mud) although I guess that's a good thing. If I get the chance I might turn chaotic evil just to murder her, slowly.

I'd just like to interject here and point out that I'm not going to say anything to spoil the mood, Chief. I'll just float here and watch. Don't mind me, just sitting here, floating and watching, that's me.
Last edited by Kostas; July 8th, 2013 at 09:09.
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