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Default I love a story with a happy ending.

July 22nd, 2013, 13:00
Racists think literally everyone of a race thinks/does certain things. For example that black people are all just waiting to murder you and steal your stuff. They do exist, but the thing is they are wrong and I think it's good to show that they are wrong. It's not all black people, just like not all white people are racist. It's a small percentage and they don't just become that way randomly. Like they turned left instead of right at the light and decided to become a car thief.

I think it's much more messed up to try and propagate the old and obviously wrong nonsense about bad childhoods that no one int heir right mind believes anyway.
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July 22nd, 2013, 13:04
Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post


All that science bullshit is just useless.

As for the story of course it does, try to get into harvard if you are asian.

This is stuff you can just look up. But IQ doesn't mean anything. Brain genes that cause you to not recycle neurotransmitters properly so they build up and make you an emotional wreck don't mean anything.

And it's not "black people" but simply people. Sorry but you just don't even get what racism is or how obviously racist you are.

Correlation is what we like to call "evidence" in scienceland. It's not "proofs" but proofs are only valid in the maths. When you have a strong correlation and you have a mechanism of action and you have nothing that proves it wrong then it becomes accepted scientific theory, which is what this is. It's not a link to stormfront, this is just what wikipedia says. If someone who hates the idea of genes affecting people (lol) could disprove it then they would have by now, but guess what people are no different from cows or dogs in that they are physical beings not creatures of spirit or whatever they'd have to be for your thinking to make the least bit of sense.

I mean if a bad childhood led to crime how many germans and japanese would be serial killers? 150%? That's just a joke so don't get your RHM mantra going again.

East asians don't have the warrior gene very often, central asians do. And central asians are horrible with crime as well, in proportion to how frequently it occurs. So-called "hispanics" are a mix of euros natives and africans and they aslo commit violent crime in proportion to the frequency of this gene they have. What a coinkidink.

The idea here isn't to persecute anyone, but to exonerate. No, you don't just become a violent criminal, you can have that predisposition from birth.
Once again (I expect this needs to be repeated around 10-12 times) - no one is saying genes aren't affecting people.

We're saying you can't establish with any kind of certainty how these genes affect actual behavior - or to what degree they're involved in any given criminal.

You can detect a correlation between certain defects or "genes" and violent behavior - but only in the most general sense. You have no idea if those genes are the only difference - and you certainly have no idea what to do about it.

You're saying "all criminals are bad" - and yet you're trying to convince people they're born that way.

That's just as bad as being a racist bigot - which you like to claim everyone is.

Again - if people are born bad, then why do they deserve punishment? Is that what you consider fair and just?

It's not clear and it's not "accepted scientific theory" that murderers are born murderers.

That's your own personal pet theory with absolutely no tangible "evidence" to back it up.
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July 22nd, 2013, 13:31
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
You're not serious, are you? Please tell me there aren't people I otherwise consider very intelligent who lack such a basic understanding of history, sociology, and human behavior that they would need this stuff explained. Because if you lack the basic understanding of how racial discrimination and oppression BY whites AGAINST blacks has played a SIGNIFICANT role in our history … well, I don't know. Because at that point we might as well be debating whether or not the sun rises in the east. Yes, it IS that plain, clear and factual.
What does any of that have to do with Affirmative Action today? It's now being banned by states for a reason. It's an archaic process that discriminates based on race, sex, and religion.
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July 22nd, 2013, 13:55
Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
But if you compare only violent crime this goes away, because black crime is many times more likely to be violent. All this means is the cops pursue violent crime more vigorously.
If someone is looking for and counting black rocks in a bucket and then you ask how many white or blue rocks there were, they will have no idea, and might not even remember seeing any blue rocks.

The reality of American history - and frankly, this is something you should at least agree with - is that our power structure made sure that everyone was taught that 'white = good, black = bad'. I mean, hats in movies, cats, etc.

Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
So basically it's the same YOU ARE A RACIST HOMOPHOBE MISOGYNIST BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH ME!!! And a holocaust denier now, too. Dude, you need to take a sedative. If you truly think whole groups can be racist that's a racist thought. You are a racist. You are the one with issues, not me.
Actually you again misunderstand me - my frustration is your complete lack of an acknowledgement of systemic racism as a foundational element in the entirety of AMerican history. Does that mean ALL Americans are racist? Absolutely not - as you DO note, you cannot assign a characteristic that describes a group to every member of that group. I mean, do we think all whites in the slave south were racist? No. That all in non-slave north were not racist? Again no. But sociology and human behavior and 'big data' allow for general descriptors of the way masses move over time. And while white on black racism is a diminishing factor, it is still a large factor in our country. Denying that is ignoring our history and the reality of the human condition.

Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
And yes he did say racist homophobe misogynist like that all together for no reason.
No, I said it - and NOT to you - for someone who was tossing derogatory gender and sexual-orientation terms around as they noted justification of pursuing someone based on the color of their skin. Therefore my description in that case was accurate.

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July 22nd, 2013, 14:29
You guys are never going to see eye to eye on this one. Better to agree to disagree and move on…

I do have a question for Thrasher and txa1265:

Do you or have you ever lived in an area with a high concentration of black people? If not, then your opinion doesn't carry much weight.

Personally, I grew up in NJ, and didn't start dealing with lots of blacks until I moved down South (Durham, NC for 2 years, Northern Atlanta suburbs, GA for 14+ years). I must say that it has been an eye-opening experience. When I first moved down South, I was pretty empathetic to the plight of blacks, but not so much anymore. Most black people I've encountered massively reinforce ghetto stereotypes. It's so bad that I consider calling someone "black" to be an insult. I call the non-stereotypes, "dark-skinned", instead (you can't fault someone for their skin color). I'll never forget one day when an African guy that I used to work with asked me:

"Why is it that I can talk to your people…the white people…I can have a civilized discussion…but, my people, they are animals!!!"

Was he a "racist"? Or is he a person who can reach conclusions based on personal experiences? I explained to him that they are not his people, and he shouldn't insult himself. The fact is that blacks are masters of scuttling their own ships.

I'm fully aware of the racist history of this country. It is absolutely despicable!!! However, the colonists and later citizens were exploitive of everything. They murdered the natives, stole their land, discriminated against Asians (Angel Island/Internment). Basically, they fucked over everyone they could for personal gain. These other groups have, for the most part, gotten past this and thrived. Blacks are incapable of this. They dwell in the past, accept no responsibility for their actions, and destroy everything they touch. Furthermore, they view themselves as saints. If Africans had the steel weapons, armor, and galleons, then they would have enslaved the Europeans. Exploitation is a human problem, which is color-blind.

As far as DArtagnan is concerned, all I can say is that without living in an area in the US with a high concentration of blacks, you can't really comment on the situation. You can read all the articles on the subject, but you really need to experience it first hand to understand. Trust me, you should stay in Denmark.

To me, true racism means that you can't stand someone based solely on their skin color/ethnicity. Having bias against thuggish-looking/acting vermin hardly applies. I consider that to be survival instincts and street smarts.

Your mileage may vary, but that is my 2 cents…
Last edited by gozioso; July 22nd, 2013 at 14:49.
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July 22nd, 2013, 14:34
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Once again (I expect this needs to be repeated around 10-12 times) - no one is saying genes aren't affecting people.

We're saying you can't establish with any kind of certainty how these genes affect actual behavior - or to what degree they're involved in any given criminal.

You can detect a correlation between certain defects or "genes" and violent behavior - but only in the most general sense. You have no idea if those genes are the only difference - and you certainly have no idea what to do about it.

You're saying "all criminals are bad" - and yet you're trying to convince people they're born that way.

That's just as bad as being a racist bigot - which you like to claim everyone is.

Again - if people are born bad, then why do they deserve punishment? Is that what you consider fair and just?

It's not clear and it's not "accepted scientific theory" that murderers are born murderers.

That's your own personal pet theory with absolutely no tangible "evidence" to back it up.
This is what's called "evidence" to explain how science works again.

If you actually read the article and read the citations which you obviously didn't you'd see that there's a strong correlation between this gene and violence, as well as a clear reason why that's the case. So yes we do know how it's affecting them and why. Repeat sequences control how much of a coded gene get expressed, so it lowers the amount of the protein produced. Can't get any simpler than that, especially since we already know what happens when you take drugs that have this same effect.

You either believe in genetics and science or don't, you seem to want to pick and choose.

And yes it's accepted, if you read the page you won't find lots of criticism. There's no valid criticism, if there were it would be listed especially as it seems controversial to some people.

You can repeat all you want but it's obvious you just don't know what you're talking about and can't be bothered to remedy your ignorance and just ignore any facts that you find inconvenient.

Of course there's more than one gene that causes behavior but we do know this affects behavior and exactly how. They have made mice with the faulty gene as well, guess how that turned out.

In fact they've done that with loads of brain genes. We do know exactly how many brain genes work. The coding genes are simple to figure out, they have different levels of a protein or different forms of it, many of which we have known about already for 70+ years like with MAO. Just a minute ago you denied that completely. It's clear you just don't know about it and as such you should stop backpedalling and start reading, and consider changing your opinion to be the one that is in line with reality.

There's other genes with correlation but no knowledge on how it works, this is a very simple case.

As far as what's fair or not, life is not fair, but no I don't think that punishing criminals is helpful, there's really no rehabilitating most of them either, unfortunately. Maybe drugs will help in the future but the picture is complicated enough that it's unlikely.
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July 22nd, 2013, 14:39
I asked for a reality check from you and JDR earlier, as reasonable people … I will try again.

Can we agree that racism and the abhorrent treatment of black people is as fundamental an American trait as 'baseball and Apple pie'?

I mean, we have ownership and demonstrably sub-human treatment, followed by legal second-class status, followed by legal inferior and separate accommodation, and only within our lifetime have we had the beginnings of equal treatment under law. None of that is open for debate, really - that is just history.

Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
You keep spouting this nonsense. Please offer any sliver of objective proof that Zimmerman was racially motivated. There's only one guy that can truly answer that, and he's not talking a whole lot. But, by all means, join Thrasher in the mind readers' club and ejimakate us racists.
OK, a few things:

- We cannot PROVE that Zimmerman was racially motivated - nor can we prove he was NOT. Therefore please stop calling it 'nonsense' - it is a matter of reasonable dispute.
- We know he singled out Martin to pursuit based on his appearance - not necessarily skin color, but because he decided Martin 'looked suspicious'.
- HOWEVER, have the 911 recordings which have him use terms like 'them', 'that type', 'those people' and so on.
- THEREFORE it is at least inferentially true that he was grouping Martin with a larger stereotype and associating that with guilt. While we cannot directly state that it was skin color, there is strong circumstantial evidence at this point.
- There is also some potential evidence (in dispute based on clarity of background from 911 call) of Zimmerman using racial slurs against Martin at some point in the incident.

Again, not proof - but we have someone who pursued based on appearance, used terminology that ascribed negative grouping factors to an individual, and finally the use of racial slurs. The evidence is fairly strong that there was at least some racial motivation in the pursuit of Martin.

Which is different from the *killing* of Martin, just to be clear. And honestly, my issue with Martin's killing is much more about our pathological gun-nut culture than about racism.

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July 22nd, 2013, 14:41
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
What does any of that have to do with Affirmative Action today? It's now being banned by states for a reason. It's an archaic process that discriminates based on race, sex, and religion.
hahaha. That is all. Actually not:

Myth 3: Affirmative action may have been necessary 30 years ago, but the playing field is fairly level today.
Despite the progress that has been made, the playing field is far from level. Women continue to earn 77 cents for every male dollar (U.S. Bureau of the Census, 2010). Black people continue to have twice the unemployment rate of White people, twice the rate of infant mortality, and just over half the proportion of people who attend four years or more of college (see Figure 1). In fact, without affirmative action the percentage of Black students at many selective schools would drop to only 2% of the student body (Bowen & Bok, 1998). This would effectively choke off Black access to top universities and severely restrict progress toward racial equality.

So, PUH_LEAZE.

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July 22nd, 2013, 14:51
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
But it is cyclic, and again becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.



You're not serious, are you? Please tell me there aren't people I otherwise consider very intelligent who lack such a basic understanding of history, sociology, and human behavior that they would need this stuff explained. Because if you lack the basic understanding of how racial discrimination and oppression BY whites AGAINST blacks has played a SIGNIFICANT role in our history well, I don't know. Because at that point we might as well be debating whether or not the sun rises in the east. Yes, it IS that plain, clear and factual.
Mike, let's make this simple. Does affirmative action encourage/force employment/education decisions based on race? A simple yes/no will be sufficient.

That's racism, champ.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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July 22nd, 2013, 14:55
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
- CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSALITY.
- Repeat that 10 times and whenever you are tempted to say that a study showing correlation means it will CAUSE someone to do something repeat it again.
Interesting that you're so certain of this and yet you'll claim that variations in criminal rates are caused by racism. I wonder why that might be.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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July 22nd, 2013, 15:06
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
OK, a few things:

- We cannot PROVE that Zimmerman was racially motivated - nor can we prove he was NOT. Therefore please stop calling it 'nonsense' - it is a matter of reasonable dispute.
- We know he singled out Martin to pursuit based on his appearance - not necessarily skin color, but because he decided Martin 'looked suspicious'.
- HOWEVER, have the 911 recordings which have him use terms like 'them', 'that type', 'those people' and so on.
- THEREFORE it is at least inferentially true that he was grouping Martin with a larger stereotype and associating that with guilt. While we cannot directly state that it was skin color, there is strong circumstantial evidence at this point.
- There is also some potential evidence (in dispute based on clarity of background from 911 call) of Zimmerman using racial slurs against Martin at some point in the incident.
Could just as easily have been that Trayvon was wearing a University of Miami sweatshirt (I know he wasn't, but you get the point). That would satisfy all your circumstantial evidence besides the last one, which has been rather strongly disputed. But you've jumped with great certainty to the assumption that this was racially motivated. Thus, nonsense. Sorry, Mike, you're not just seeing shadows, you're making them up as you go.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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July 22nd, 2013, 15:10
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Interesting that you're so certain of this and yet you'll claim that variations in criminal rates are caused by racism. I wonder why that might be.
My statement about correlation and causation is a general truth and a fallacy of non-technical people, and one way all media (left and right)?like to manipulate study results.

My other thing is simple - there is absolutely no denying that racism against blacks is a fundamental issue in the entire history of our country. No serious minded person can dispute that. The impact today, and on individual cases is different, of course. Yet I have yet to get from you a basic admission that we had people in space and blacks were legally made inferior to whites in nearly every way.

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July 22nd, 2013, 15:20
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Despite the progress that has been made, the playing field is far from level. Women continue to earn 77 cents for every male dollar (U.S. Bureau of the Census, 2010).
I'd like to take a look at this really quickly if I might. The logic applies to the rest of your claims, but this one is easier.

In order for the numbers to have any meaning whatsoever, you have to assume that women do the exact same job in the exact same way and everything else is exactly the same. Apples to apples. OK, I wave my magic wand and your wish is granted. Everything is identical.

You now own a business. If you can get the exactly same labor done for 77 cents on the dollar, why in the hell would you pay a dollar? You'd be out of business in a heartbeat. If our assumption (apples to apples) is correct, then there wouldn't be a man working in the entire country. Every position would be filled with a woman at 77% labor rate.

Since this clearly is not the case and never has been, one can only conclude that the basic assumption (apples to apples) is bullshit. I have no idea where the differences might be (actually I do, but it doesn't matter) but there's no way around the fact that there must be some difference.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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Last edited by dteowner; July 22nd, 2013 at 15:25. Reason: added last sentence
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July 22nd, 2013, 15:21
Originally Posted by gozioso View Post
Personally, I grew up in NJ, and didn't start dealing with lots of blacks until I moved down South (Durham, NC for 2 years, Northern Atlanta suburbs, GA for 14+ years). I must say that it has been an eye-opening experience. When I first moved down South, I was pretty empathetic to the plight of blacks, but not so much anymore. Most black people I've encountered massively reinforce ghetto stereotypes.
These places you mentioned, I do not know them.
The blacks you have encountered, to what class do most of them belong? Upper or middle class? Good jobs, good earnings, nice houses, good health insurance? With family and friends members of upper or middle class as well?
During the time of Charles Dickens the ones better off considered the (white) lower class ill-mannered and/or criminal. Imo there's nothing new under the sun. Alas.
Keyword: (generations of) poverty.

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July 22nd, 2013, 15:23
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
My statement about correlation and causation is a general truth and a fallacy of non-technical people, and one way all media (left and right)?like to manipulate study results.

My other thing is simple - there is absolutely no denying that racism against blacks is a fundamental issue in the entire history of our country. No serious minded person can dispute that. The impact today, and on individual cases is different, of course. Yet I have yet to get from you a basic admission that we had people in space and blacks were legally made inferior to whites in nearly every way.
Admission made. Doesn't actually change a thing. You're still very strongly vocalizing a stance that mistakes correlation for causation while insultingly chastising the other side for the same offense.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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July 22nd, 2013, 15:41
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
I'd like to take a look at this really quickly if I might. The logic applies to the rest of your claims, but this one is easier.

In order for the numbers to have any meaning whatsoever, you have to assume that women do the exact same job in the exact same way and everything else is exactly the same. Apples to apples. OK, I wave my magic wand and your wish is granted. Everything is identical.

You now own a business. If you can get the exactly same labor done for 77 cents on the dollar, why in the hell would you pay a dollar? You'd be out of business in a heartbeat. If our assumption (apples to apples) is correct, then there wouldn't be a man working in the entire country. Every position would be filled with a woman at 77% labor rate.

Since this clearly is not the case and never has been, one can only conclude that the basic assumption (apples to apples) is bullshit. I have no idea where the differences might be (actually I do, but it doesn't matter) but there's no way around the fact that there must be some difference.
O FFS. I'm warped back to the 1930's.

Excuse me for saying. Consider it a bad intro to: 'Have fun, I'm outta here, playing with myself, or anything else I can think of instead of having to read this thread.'

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July 22nd, 2013, 15:43
Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
This is what's called "evidence" to explain how science works again.

If you actually read the article and read the citations which you obviously didn't you'd see that there's a strong correlation between this gene and violence, as well as a clear reason why that's the case. So yes we do know how it's affecting them and why. Repeat sequences control how much of a coded gene get expressed, so it lowers the amount of the protein produced. Can't get any simpler than that, especially since we already know what happens when you take drugs that have this same effect.
I haven't said we don't know a gene is affecting them - but that we don't know what other factors are involved, and we don't know why lots of people with that "condition" aren't behaving violently - and why lots of people are behaving violently without it.

You see, "normal" people can be aggressive and violent too - so what use is a single proposed factor among potentially millions? It's a tiny step towards a tiny measure of understanding - and that's all it is.

Until we can establish exactly what causes violence - and not just a single factor that correlates with violent people - it's pretty useless.

We don't know what to do about it, either.

You either believe in genetics and science or don't, you seem to want to pick and choose.
What? Are you saying that I must accept all your conclusions and theories as fact or none? Because that's pretty stupid.

I don't dispute they've found a "warrior gene" - I'm disputing what we can deduce from that discovery.

And yes it's accepted, if you read the page you won't find lots of criticism. There's no valid criticism, if there were it would be listed especially as it seems controversial to some people.
What?

Please point out where it says that murderers are born murderers. When you manage to find a "scientific" article that spouts the kind of bullshit you're spouting, I'll garantee a level of criticism that's quite significant in return.

You can repeat all you want but it's obvious you just don't know what you're talking about and can't be bothered to remedy your ignorance and just ignore any facts that you find inconvenient.
Again, this - by itself - makes no impression on me. But if you enjoy calling me ignorant over and over, I won't stand in your way. It's kinda amusing.

Of course there's more than one gene that causes behavior but we do know this affects behavior and exactly how. They have made mice with the faulty gene as well, guess how that turned out.
So, by establishing a correlation between that gene and violence - we know EXACTLY how it works and what it does?

Uhm, no.

In fact they've done that with loads of brain genes. We do know exactly how many brain genes work. The coding genes are simple to figure out, they have different levels of a protein or different forms of it, many of which we have known about already for 70+ years like with MAO. Just a minute ago you denied that completely. It's clear you just don't know about it and as such you should stop backpedalling and start reading, and consider changing your opinion to be the one that is in line with reality.
We don't exactly how much of anything works - but we do have some theories. About the brain, we're very far from knowing anything of much use in terms of how to modify and control behavior, except in extreme and damaging ways.

As far as what's fair or not, life is not fair, but no I don't think that punishing criminals is helpful, there's really no rehabilitating most of them either, unfortunately. Maybe drugs will help in the future but the picture is complicated enough that it's unlikely.
You're not answering my question.

Why are murderers "bad" or "evil" if they're born that way, and have no way to change it?
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July 22nd, 2013, 15:52
Originally Posted by Omega View Post
O FFS. I'm warped back to the 1930's.

Excuse me for saying. Consider it a bad intro to: 'Have fun, I'm outta here, playing with myself, or anything else I can think of instead of having to read this thread.'
Are you disputing the logic, or just having an emotional event? You'll note that I very specifically made no mention of derogatory reasons, as the differences may very well be important ones that we value highly. Still differences.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
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July 22nd, 2013, 15:56
Originally Posted by gozioso View Post
As far as DArtagnan is concerned, all I can say is that without living in an area in the US with a high concentration of blacks, you can't really comment on the situation. You can read all the articles on the subject, but you really need to experience it first hand to understand. Trust me, you should stay in Denmark.
I don't need to live in all places of the world to understand something about human nature.

That's actually one of the reasons I've chosen to focus on that subject - and how our minds work, because it applies to all of us.

Unlike Mr. Genes - I believe the environment is the dominant factor when it comes to the vast majority of human beings, if we look beyond the physical traits which we all share.

This means that if you took me out of my mother's womb near my birth - and placed me in the womb of a woman living in America - I would end up a product of that environment.

If you expose people to lower-class conditions like poverty and racial bigotry - you'll breed contempt on both sides. It's not a wise thing to do, but human beings are not known for their wisdom. At least, not if you ask me.

To me, true racism means that you can't stand someone based solely on their skin color/ethnicity. Having bias against thuggish-looking/acting vermin hardly applies. I consider that to be survival instincts and street smarts.
Racism is the inability to accept your own ignorance about another race or ethnic group.

We fear the unknown - and it's easier to condemn it than it is to understand it.

It's very human and it happens to us all - we just don't all realise how natural it is. It takes an effort to accept that we're basically the same - and that foreign ways are not bad or good. They're just ways.

We're all weak and ignorant, and it's useless to blame us for being who we are.

We can but try to minimize harm and maximize how we benefit. It's all anyone can do, and some people are not given the means with which to benefit a whole lot.
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July 22nd, 2013, 16:01
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Why are murderers "bad" or "evil" if they're born that way, and have no way to change it?
I might be off base, but it seems to me that y'all have a basic difference of opinion on human nature. For MWJ, his logic holds up best if all people are crazed animals to some extent or other, with the "good" ones better able to control their instincts to conform with society. His terms of "good" and "bad" are defined by the ability to fit within society's boundaries. It's more of a true/false position than an emotional one.

Your logic holds up best if all people generally start "good" to some extent or other, and remain as such unless society screws them up. Your notions of "good" and "bad" match up better with traditional emotional ones (although I think your intent is far more utilitarian) and address the individual, ummm, individually.

I favor the former approach, but readily admit that it's foo-foo philosophy with little to no objective support that's decisive.

Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
Dallas Cowboys: *sigh* / / Detroit Red Wings: Took injuries to see them, but how about them youngsters!
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