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Default The Batman Arkham Asylum Debate or something like that

July 19th, 2013, 15:21
Maybe if you tell yourself that enough times it'll come true.

It's funny that you can't resist coming back and trying to get the last word even after claiming you were done though. Kind of cute actually.
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July 19th, 2013, 15:29
Oh, I have little chance of getting the last word with you. I'm kinda past that desire

I didn't claim I was done, though, I said I'd rather not waste anymore time with this. You know, the "pretend" game where I pretend you're not just twisting words to save face. This isn't my first time witnessing your deceitful acrobatics, you know.

But that doesn't mean I can't have a little fun!
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July 19th, 2013, 15:38
I think you mean where you pretend I'm twisting words.

Because claiming that someone is being inconsistent by trying to differentiate between "too many" and "unnecesarry" is pretty damn funny.

I'll humor you though. How many unnecesarry things does it take to be too many in Dartagnan's world? Enlighten us.

2? 5? 10? I'm just curious because I consider even 1 example of something that is unnecesarry to be too many.
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July 19th, 2013, 15:42
Yes, and you clearly consider an icon representing a circle with a button indicator on it to be two separate icons - and those TWO separate icons (according to you, don't forget) are what you really meant by "UI has too many icons" - right?

Do you honestly expect me to believe that? Not only do you separate a single icon into two separate icons - because the button indicator is part of it, but you also consider the button indicator on that icon to be the justification for talking about too many icons.

Maybe you really did mean something like that - but can you at least appreciate that saying "UI has too many icons" comes off as "UI is cluttered"?

If you'd simply said "too much handholding" - I would have understood what you meant. I might not have agreed with the grapple icon in particular - but it does have a measure of handholding, as per usual for a console-type game.

It has flashing objects and what not - and it has pop-up indicators at certain points.

That's handholding - and though I found the vast majority of that quite helpful - I understand how someone might not.

It's primarily because I wasn't very invested in the game - so I honestly couldn't be bothered to memorise controls for combos and what not.
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July 19th, 2013, 15:54
You can believe what you choose.

Your claim seems to be based on the assumption that that particular icon is the only one I could point to. It's not. There are others as well.

How about the exact same thing happening every time you're near cover or near a door?

Are you going to tell me an icon is necessary to pick a door out of the environment?

That's what I was referring to earlier when I said there were other, less defensible, examples I could use.

So no, it's not just that 1 example. Although if it was, I could still say it's "too many".
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July 19th, 2013, 16:01
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
You can believe what you choose.

Your claim seems to be based on the assumption that that particular icon is the only one I could point to. It's not. There are others as well.

How about the exact same thing happening every time you're near cover or near a door?

Are you going to tell me an icon is necessary to pick a door out of the environment?

That's what I was referring to earlier when I said there were other, less defensible, examples I could use.

So no, it's not just that 1 example. Although if it was, I could still say it's "too many".
No, I don't believe what I choose. I believe what makes the most sense.

What do you mean necessary? Are you talking about whether the game would be completely unplayable without them? In that case, they're all unnecessary.

If we're talking about them being helpful and appropriate - then I can't think of a SINGLE icon that I had a problem with.

Some doors can't be opened - and sometimes you come across walls that look a bit like doors. Having the game tell you that you can open the door by showing the open-door key is EXACTLY the same (to me) as any game indicating that something is interactive. Like contextual icons in games like Skyrim or whatever - where your icon changes to reveal when you're close enough to interact with it.

It's VITAL when you're near cover - because nothing is more frustrating than trying to head into cover and not being quite close enough - or trying to run, but actually going into cover because you're too close.

I consider such indicators very helpful - and I DON'T think "old games" were better because they didn't have helpful indicators.

The fact that AA uses the actual control as part of the icon is simply smart use of icons.

LOTS of modern games use that - but since I've never had a problem with it, I can't remember any specific titles right now.

I bet you've played a lot of them too. How about the recent Tomb Raider? That would be just the kind of game to have such indicators. Was it such a big deal there?
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July 19th, 2013, 16:13
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I consider such indicators very helpful - and I DON'T think "old games" were better because they didn't have helpful indicators.

The fact that AA uses the actual control as part of the icon is simply smart use of icons.

LOTS of modern games use that - but since I've never had a problem with it, I can't remember any specific titles right now.
Yes, I'm quite aware that "lots" of modern games have such icons, and I don't like them in other games any more than I do in AA.

I can see this is quickly entering the realm of subjectivity though, so I really don't see any point in continuing.

You don't think old games were better because they didn't have such icons, and that's where we disagree.

I'd rather not have them where as you obviously don't mind them. We'll just agree to each his own.
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July 19th, 2013, 16:18
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Yes, I'm quite aware that "lots" of modern games have such icons, and I don't like them in other game any more than in AA.

I can see this is quickly entering the realm of subjectivity, so I really don't see any point in continuing.

You don't think old games were better because they didn't have such icons, and that's where we disagree.

I'd rather not have them where as you obviously don't mind them. We'll just agree to each his own.
Sure, no problem.

It's just that you brought it up as the specific reason you didn't like your time with the demo - and I don't remember you having a problem with this kind of indicator thing in all the other console-type games I know you've played. Maybe I missed that, however.

Maybe that threw me off a bit.

I might have preferred a more subtle indicator - but then again, I WAS playing with the controller most of the time - and I'm used to the controls being displayed in color-coded fashion.

On the PC - I prefer icons that draw less attention to themselves - which is probably why I specifically don't mind the grappling hook icon - as it's not color coded.

But, yeah, we definitely have different degrees of tolerance when it comes to helpful indicators.

No biggie.
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July 19th, 2013, 16:22
SpoonFULL, first time playing SS2? I envy you right now.

It's definitely one of my all-time favorites. I can understand your comparisons between SS2 and Dark Souls, although I wouldn't quite put DS on the same level overall.

I also didn't find SS2 to be nearly as difficult as DS. It's challenging for sure, but not in the masochistic way that DS is sometimes.


@DArtagnan - Oh I'm sure if someone looked hard enough, they could find me bitching about pop-up icons in other games as well. It's been a pet peeve of mine for quite awhile. I just think they should at least be optional in most cases, but the majority of developers apparently disagree.
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July 22nd, 2013, 07:38
Now we're responsible for separate threads? Hehe
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July 22nd, 2013, 08:08
It's all your fault.

I was compelled to install AA yesterday, and I have to say it seems to be a lot better than the impression the demo gave me. I'm definitely going to play through it in the near future.

The DRM is fucking ridiculous though. Steam+GFWL+SecuROM? Completely redundant…
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July 22nd, 2013, 08:44
I have a special hatred for GFWL…

Let me know what you think of the game - even if it has too many icons
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July 22nd, 2013, 09:08
Well, not to fan the flames, but I'd have to agree that adding the actual button isn't a big deal. It is the best combination of clarity and conciseness for transmitting a message to the player.

I'm amazed at the amount of posts this caused.
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July 22nd, 2013, 09:55
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Not quite convinced you're capable of admitting you're wrong to the same extent as I - but to be fair, you're not nearly as bad as Thrasher.

I've actually seen you acknowledge a mistake or two - just not to me

Don't think Thrasher has ever done that
Hmmm and you're a hypocrite and a liar. But we all knew that.
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July 22nd, 2013, 10:14
Originally Posted by Korplem View Post
I'm amazed at the amount of posts this caused.
And not just here. While doing a search to see if there was a way to disable the prompts, I found quite a few discussions relating to the topic.

For the record, there's no way to disable them individually, but you can disable the HUD. Obviously not having the HUD at all would create some issues, but someone came up with a config edit that allows you to toggle it off/on with a keystroke.

I found that I have no problem playing without the HUD after becoming familiar enough with the controls. I simply toggle it back on for detective mode or when I need to upgrade.

It's not a huge difference obviously, but I do find it more immersive. The main reason I like it though is so I have the option to play on normal difficulty without the game telling me when to counter-attack.
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July 22nd, 2013, 12:14
So much gnashing of teeth over this:


Wow. Just wow

I enjoyed both Batman games and the button prompts never disturbed me at all. In fact, I liked it because I space my gaming sessions out by days and I tend to appreciate the reminder for the right key.
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July 22nd, 2013, 12:15
We're not retarded!

Don't show me that key again!

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July 22nd, 2013, 12:19
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
We're not retarded!

Don't show me that key again!

I am retarded, I DO need crosshairs But not auto-aim … unless I'm on an iPad …

— Mike
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July 22nd, 2013, 13:21
Originally Posted by Dr. A View Post
So much gnashing of teeth over this:

I enjoyed both Batman games and the button prompts never disturbed me at all. In fact, I liked it because I space my gaming sessions out by days and I tend to appreciate the reminder for the right key.

Good for you.

Not sure why someone having a different preference would bother you so much though.
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July 22nd, 2013, 17:58
We're not bothered, but endless discussions of the trivial are boring to read. Luckily only the most OCD need read.
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