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Default Europa Universalis IV - Pre-order Deal

August 5th, 2013, 01:46
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
You haven't given any reasonable examples. And if you are talking flame bait, this is a good start: "If anyone thinks that isn't milking it than they're seriously delusional or the marketing director of Paradox."
Granted that is flame bait. Maxima mea culpa. Allow me to hang my head in shame. And if I ever behave is such an immoderate manner again may I be forever banned from the hollowed halls of RPG watch.

Originally Posted by Roq View Post
You haven't given any reasonable examples.
Yes I have you fucking fanboi tit.
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August 5th, 2013, 01:52
Originally Posted by greywolf00 View Post
Personally, I'd rather have a higher entry price point with some of the DLC content included in the base game instead of their current model. The EU series is my favorite Paradox offering, but I can't justify buying it new knowing there's going to be 3 or 4 DLC/mini expansions coming. Just makes more sense to buy it as a complete package bundled at a better price imo.
Not me. I'd rather pay a lower price point, and pay for the extras I want. I don't care about the extra music. I don't care about the extra family shields. I may or may not care about the region-specific music. I don't care about rule designer, so I'm ok with paying $30 + $5 +$2 for the exact things I want, than $50.
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August 5th, 2013, 02:10
No PC game costs anything to the end user if we want to be brutally honest about it. Shafting your honest consumers with DLC which should be in the core package won't end well and I say this a Paradox customer who has purchased EU II, EU III HoI III, SoS II, CK I, CK II, and at least half a dozen other games. And Paradox's historical attitude to QA - and thus its fan-base - has been shitty to say the least.
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August 5th, 2013, 02:32
Originally Posted by wolfing View Post
Not me. I'd rather pay a lower price point, and pay for the extras I want. I don't care about the extra music. I don't care about the extra family shields. I may or may not care about the region-specific music. I don't care about rule designer, so I'm ok with paying $30 + $5 +$2 for the exact things I want, than $50.
The music stuff isn't really what I was referring to (though it seems silly to sell separately, as does the sprites but that's nothing new for them). The ruler creator absolutely should have been included imo. Legacy of Rome added a bunch of stuff that could have been in the base game. The Republic at least has a niche in adding a unique flavor to some countries. Don't have Sunset so unsure of the added value there but, being their first nonhistoric, I can see why keeping that optional is a good idea. The Old Gods is the first real substantial addition and I don't have an issue with that being separate or its price point (though I dislike the Norse units & portraits being separate DLC).
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August 5th, 2013, 02:53
Originally Posted by greywolf00 View Post
Personally, I'd rather have a higher entry price point with some of the DLC content included in the base game instead of their current model. The EU series is my favorite Paradox offering, but I can't justify buying it new knowing there's going to be 3 or 4 DLC/mini expansions coming. Just makes more sense to buy it as a complete package bundled at a better price imo.
I understand what you are saying, but sadly every economic model says you are in the vast minority. The great example is the iTunes App Store - the biggest earning games are ones that are free to download. That is right - you will make more money with a free game than a $1 or $2 game - all because of in-app purchases (i.e. DLC).

— Mike
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August 5th, 2013, 07:19
Originally Posted by Zaleukos View Post
My experience from the franchises that allow optional hands on combat (Total War and Imperialism) is that you tend to end up with one of two consistent outcomes:

1) Hands off results that are so crappy compared to how a human player would do that they arent an option.
2) Hands off results that are so good that there is no reason to play the battles.
In this case, the hands-off results would be exactly like EU - as they'd just use their existing combat simulation for that one.

And that it ALWAYS has the following effect:
- Substantially slowed down campaign gameplay.
Yes, if you fight every single battle manually - which you'd only do if slowing down the game didn't bother you

- They found a niche (that isnt your cup of tea) and they cornered it.
No, that's not correct. I really like a LOT about their games - I'm just suggesting some optional improvements.

- Going in the directions I get the feeling you want would put them up against competitors with superior resources and experience in designing those game elements.
What a strange feeling to get based on nothing at all. Silly.

- The games have evolved fairly significantly between generations. The difference between EU2 and EU3 are bigger than those between different iterations of TES games. Ditto for V1 and V2 as well as CK1 and CK2.
EU2 and EU3 are more different than Morrowind and Oblivion? Arena and Daggerfall?

Hahaha, that was a great one! Thanks for the laugh

And I do smell some irony in you complaining about a company not making their games more accessible instead of sticking with their hardcore fanbase
I don't know where you go poking your nose - but I'm not talking about making the game accessible - but more appealing to the hardcore fanbase.

Again, I refuse to accept that the "fans" actually prefer sliders to something tangible and hands-on.

I'm not talking about making it casual - but less boring.

There's a difference.

But if you want to believe I'm advocating that it gets dumbed down or something - I can't really help that.
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August 5th, 2013, 09:47
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
But if you want to believe I'm advocating that it gets dumbed down or something - I can't really help that.
Maybe not - but you are trying to change it from what it is to what every other game out there is. Paradox games are sandbox simulators where you can play out alternative history scenarios, they aren't action RTSs where the focus is on beating the AI in combat. Adding that element would be a massive step in the wrong direction for most hardcore fans of the game, whether it was as an option or not and would take development resources that are better used elsewhere.

As to visualization, sliders etc. Yes they could improve that area and it could reduce the steep learning curves a bit and make decisions more impactful. They are working on that and it will be interesting to see how the new point allocation works in this respect.

Comparing Bethesda games, I don't reckon they've made much progress in adding features that make the game more enjoyable since Morrowind. In fact the scaling in Oblivion and Skyrim largely screw up any RPG elements that the games have. Paradox games OTOH are moving in the right direction - that is for *most* of their fans.
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August 5th, 2013, 09:55
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
Maybe not - but you are trying to change it from what it is to what every other game out there is. Paradox games are sandbox simulators where you can play out alternative history scenarios, they aren't action RTSs where the focus is on beating the AI in combat. Adding that element would be a massive step in the wrong direction for most hardcore fans of the game, whether it was as an option or not and would take development resources that are better used elsewhere.
No, I'm not trying to change what it is into action RTSs - what nonsense is that?

I'm simply talking about adding an optional combat system that's more tangible than adjusting sliders for people who want it.

Stop talking nonsense.

"Massive step in the wrong direction" = massive hyperbole.

As to visualization, sliders etc. Yes they could improve that area and it could reduce the steep learning curves a bit and make decisions more impactful. They are working on that and it will be interesting to see how the new point allocation works in this respect.
Exactly - so what's the big deal? Take a deep breath.

Comparing Bethesda games, I don't reckon they've made much progress in adding features that make the game more enjoyable since Morrowind. In fact the scaling in Oblivion and Skyrim largely screw up any RPG elements that the games have. Paradox games OTOH are moving in the right direction - that is for *most* of their fans.
We're not talking about making games more enjoyable for you - but about significant changes to both the engine and gameplay.

You have no idea what "most fans" of Paradox games would prefer. You know what YOU prefer - and I know what I prefer.

We can but guess what "fans" would prefer, and I'm here postulating that most fans would prefer more tangible gameplay, if implemented correctly.

I think you're being overly defensive by creating straw men - claiming I'm out to turn EU into an action RTS.

That's a weak response - and has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
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August 5th, 2013, 18:18
Originally Posted by Zaleukos View Post
My experience from the franchises that allow optional hands on combat (Total War and Imperialism) is that you tend to end up with one of two consistent outcomes:

1) Hands off results that are so crappy compared to how a human player would do that they arent an option.
2) Hands off results that are so good that there is no reason to play the battles.
That bit helped me .
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August 5th, 2013, 18:23
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post


EU2 and EU3 are more different than Morrowind and Oblivion? Arena and Daggerfall?
In terms of gameplay? It might be better to say that the gameplay of a game like CK2 evolved more between the release version and the current version than the TES series.

The TES series is a story of failed attempts to add to the gameplay, usually ending with withdrawing from the original vision.

A game like CK2 manages to add to the gameplay mechanics successful through various patches and DLCs.

The progress managed by Paradox for the game CK2, not even from one iteration to another (CK to CK2) but through constant betterment of the game is beyond what the progress Bethesda managed to deliver over the whole TES series.
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