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Default BioWare - Making LGBT Inclusive Games

August 5th, 2013, 15:49
Originally Posted by The Hulk View Post
If I have to choose between 2 rpg's that both look interesting, but one has romances and one does not, I'll choose the one with romances.
So would I if only because that one has more "features" than the other Romances, if handled well, really do add something to the game. Some romances, again I'd have to point to DA2 here, just feel "forced" to me and I have to wonder what else the development resources could have been poured into.
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August 5th, 2013, 16:12
In a full-motion, first person, high-end AAA game, I think romance stuff works sometimes. Mass Effect is an example of a game in which I enjoyed the romance arcs.

But 3rd person, overhead, isometric sprite games— not so much.
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August 5th, 2013, 16:19
I'm not much interested in romance in games. Even in games where its available I generally ignore it. It just doesn't add to the gameplay for me. Some witty banter is fine and enjoyable tho.
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August 5th, 2013, 16:41
Originally Posted by SonOfCapiz View Post
These days I think it's speaking AGAINST homosexuality that's bound to get you demonized. I have no problem with the inclusion if the setting calls for it, but sometimes I feel that Bioware especially is finding ways of including LGBT relationships just for the sake of it, maybe to be able to say they'e LGBT-sensitive.

In DA2, for example, did most (all?) the NPCs you can be in relationships with have to be potentially gay? I'd have no problem if say Isabel were portrayed as gay or bi, that's the character they chose for her. But Anders was a surprise, it seemed like they were really pushing me to have a gay relationship with him even if that didn't seem to be his character from DA:O. Granted, events between DAO and DA2 could have changed him but that's not what it felt like to me. It really felt like having gay romance just for the sake of having it.

Also, they don't have to include LGBT just because the real world has that and has to be represented. Not everything from the real world has to have a representation just for the sake of representation. I have attention deficit disorder, my friend has asperger's, and while I'd appreciate a sped character, I don't think they should have them in just for the sake of it

What do you mean by "if the setting calls for it"? What exactly is the correct setting for gay characters? Are you saying that a gay fantasy world would be completely straight? A space colony? Why? Because that's the way it has been done in the past? It's optional. If you don't like gay characters, don't play them. In Mass Effect 3, you had to jump through a few hoops to get the gay options to open up.

Maybe they're including gay characters because a portion of their fans like gay characters. There is a sea of video games, going back to the beginning, that portray your character as a heterosexual white male. One company adds the occasional gay personality into the mix and suddenly you're implying its overkill.

While we're at it, it would be nice to see more female lead characters and minorities in leading roles. There is nothing wrong with diversity… even in a fantasy RPG.
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August 5th, 2013, 16:43
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I can't be the only one sick of reading the same thing from this guy over and over and overů.

Is homosexuality the basis of his entire existence or what?
It makes sense that he was talking about homosexuality in games since he was at a gay-themed gaming event.
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August 5th, 2013, 17:05
Meh the whole point is to persuade LGBT ppl to buy their games as those are "friendly". But I really don't see what's the fuss about, as players are not buying a game just because it tries to simulate a romance, right? Or I'm wrong?

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August 5th, 2013, 17:12
I think for most people the issue isn't really whether there are (gay) romances or not, but why BioWare makes such a big deal out of them. It seems as if that's now their games' biggest selling point, whereas gamers like me would prefer to see something like actual exploration, non-linear gameplay, large variety of areas, and other aspects where BioWare has been severely lacking as of recently. And that's why some people react increasingly irritated by that same ol' same ol' "Hey looky here, we got LGBT romances, that's why them gamez are innovative."
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August 5th, 2013, 17:13
Originally Posted by Voqar View Post
I would rather have no romance in my video games, thanks. It's just silly. I don't need a love interest in a video game…of any type.

I suppose for those out there who eternally dwell in mom's basement and who will never, ever, have live interactions with other humans without money changing hands, it might be interesting, compelling, or desirable.

Not something I need in my games though and not something that elevates RPGs for me.
The love interests were one of my favorite parts of bg2. And I say that as a man who was living on his own, with a well passing job, and doing quite well in the ladies department when I played it.

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August 5th, 2013, 17:29
I had a crush on Viconia DeVir.

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - HL Mencken
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August 5th, 2013, 17:40
Originally Posted by dpc76 View Post
What do you mean by "if the setting calls for it"? What exactly is the correct setting for gay characters? Are you saying that a gay fantasy world would be completely straight? A space colony? Why? Because that's the way it has been done in the past? It's optional. If you don't like gay characters, don't play them. In Mass Effect 3, you had to jump through a few hoops to get the gay options to open up.
For me "if the setting calls for it" means not having everyone being gay (or player-sexual) by default. Actually developing a personality with and around an NPC's sexual identity rather than simply making every NPC a screwable throwaway option regardless of your or their gender or orientation.

Now Gaider is gay and out, so he should be able to put a lot of creative vision into giving heterosexual players an insight into a world they may not have much experience with (or have a prejudiced view of). He could write a really super positive role model and advance the cause a bit like Shatner advanced race relations when he kissed Uhura.

Instead Gaider goes on preaching crusades, and writes two dimensional gay characters that are not very positive or hard to understand and like (with the exception of Zevran).
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August 5th, 2013, 18:08
Originally Posted by abharsair View Post
I think for most people the issue isn't really whether there are (gay) romances or not, but why BioWare makes such a big deal out of them.
They make a big deal because players made a big deal out of it. Players looking for immersion and story associate so closely with their avatar they took as a personal outrage their avatar could be engaged in a gay affair in a virtual world. It was an outrage.

Even if Bioware was not that addicted to marketing, they could not have left ignored the outrage of players looking for immersion.
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August 5th, 2013, 18:11
Originally Posted by elikal View Post
This is exactly the same. We are just making noise because we must. Yes in an ideal world the white straight males would freely give equal rights to blacks, to gays and women. But we all know: you don't, unless we make enough noise. And we will CONTINUE to make noise until it is normal that a hero is black or a woman or gay.
Good luck with that. Players looking for immersion or stories need to be able to relate with the characters. Especially their avatar.
The only normality they can bear is when a black, woman or gay avatar sends back the image they expect from a black, woman or gay hero.
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August 5th, 2013, 18:15
Originally Posted by Gaxkang View Post
For me "if the setting calls for it" means not having everyone being gay (or player-sexual) by default. Actually developing a personality with and around an NPC's sexual identity rather than simply making every NPC a screwable throwaway option regardless of your or their gender or orientation.

Now Gaider is gay and out, so he should be able to put a lot of creative vision into giving heterosexual players an insight into a world they may not have much experience with (or have a prejudiced view of). He could write a really super positive role model and advance the cause a bit like Shatner advanced race relations when he kissed Uhura.

Instead Gaider goes on preaching crusades, and writes two dimensional gay characters that are not very positive or hard to understand and like (with the exception of Zevran).
I'm guessing you're referring to DA2 here and I would agree, it was tackled in a heavy-handed way in that game. By contrast, I thought ME3 handled the situation very very well. Both Cortez and Trainer were non-stereotypical characters with interesting personalities and backstories. They also gave the option to romance major characters like Kaiden, but in a way that had to be essentially "unlocked" so that you wouldn't accidentally stumble upon it if you didn't want to. Hopefully they will use this as a template for future games.

I can understand why they were so liberal with the gay options in DA2. DA:O essentially had Zevran, who was a decent character, but more or less an optional (and fairly flamboyant) side character. Gay gamers really wanted to have a love interest that was more integral to the story line, like Morrigan or Alistair (there's a reason that Equal Love, the mod that removes the gender check and allows you to romance Alistair/Morrigan, was one of the more popular mods for DA:O). They may not have handled the issue well with DA2, but I thought their intentions were in the right place.
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August 5th, 2013, 18:38
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Assuming LGBT is ~10% of population
Every survey gets a different result, but Kinsey's often-quoted 10% has never, ever, ever been duplicated by anyone else - and his sampling and interviewing methods were not super-reliable.

Also, Kinsey wasn't measuring "LGBT" with his 10% number, he was measuring men with a recent history of having gay sex - so generalizing the number to include women and the transgendered doesn't really make sense either.

In the USA, the 2012 census produced estimates for the 50 states varying from 1.7% to 5.1%.
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August 5th, 2013, 18:42
Originally Posted by RedSocialKnight View Post
In the USA, the 2012 census produced estimates for the 50 states varying from 1.7% to 5.1%.
Because people in the southern and mid western states would NEVER lie about their sexuality to a state government that hates them ~rolleyes~
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August 5th, 2013, 18:43
I'm no fan of this either. It's the usual cardgame trick where when you finally manage to get all her cloth off, there's this ladyboy smiling back at you.
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August 5th, 2013, 18:52
Originally Posted by Gaxkang View Post
Gaider […] writes two dimensional gay characters that are not very positive or hard to understand and like
Right? I really tried to talk myself into liking that gross little sleazeball Zevran, but…

Originally Posted by Gaxkang View Post
(with the exception of Zevran).
Oh… ok.
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August 5th, 2013, 20:42
BioWare should concentrate more on making a decent game than self-aggrandizing attempts at fixing the world's social ills.
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August 5th, 2013, 21:15
I like romances in games. It adds as much to me (if not more) than a deeper selection of weapons or death animations. Actually, strike the "as much" and just have that read "much more."

It's not for everyone. Neither are fantasy settings, crafting, inventory management, FP POV, or puzzles.

It is absolutely fine you don't want it. I don't want stealing or assassination in my games. I don't complain about it being there, though, I just don't do it OR, if it is so central to the game (GTA) then I avoid the game entirely.

So…
if playable, interactive romances taint a game for you, be happy in the knowledge that the majority of games do not enjoy that.

But if you want BioWare to remove them…
you'll have as much luck as getting them to go back to a silent PC or lose the cinematic presentation.

By all means, make your case to them. But be prepared for a vocal swath of BioWare fans to shout you down (some of them quite rudely) and for BioWare to largely ignore you.

(Full disclosure - I haven't stopped tilting at windmills over silent PC, so… grain of salt and all that.)
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August 5th, 2013, 21:57
I'm rather ambivalent about the whole gay romance issue, and romances in games in general. They have all been rather silly and cheesey and awkward. ME series may be the best of the bunch.

I do think that the gay romance gaming news is sensational and gets a lot more attention than it deserves because it freaks out bible thumpers and homophobes/haters. Not that gay romances are a bad thing.
Last edited by Thrasher; August 5th, 2013 at 22:34.
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