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Default Obama - a troublemaker?

October 25th, 2013, 00:22
I may have to close this thread. I can't have Dte and Thrasher not only agreeing with each other, but patting each other on the back!! There's got to be a rule against that somewhere!!!!

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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October 25th, 2013, 02:20
I told the Four Horsemen to take a vacation. Thrasher and I got this silly apocolypse thing.

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October 25th, 2013, 09:17
if you were to behave like govs, you are sure to be arrested period

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October 25th, 2013, 13:24
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Not saying it's OK, I just think all this uproar is hypocritical political poopoo since I think Germany and France spy as well.
That's just an assumption, and without any proof that statement is plain worthless. So yeah, if Snowden leaks at some point that Germany taped Obama's phone, secretly copied Michelle's cookbook, or put a remote control chip into Ted Cruz' brain, then you'll have a point. Until then you (and all the other "oh well, everyone does it" NSA apologists) just don't.

And let's be clear: we're talking about recording phone calls and emails of millions of people and spying on heads of "friendly" governments, not some petty industrial espionage.
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October 25th, 2013, 15:15
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Please…. Germany spies on the US, France spies on the US, everyone spies on everyone, just may be not as effectively as others, but they would if they could. This is all a bunch fake grandstanding for political reasons, and trying to save face.
That could be stated of anything.

So what?
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October 25th, 2013, 15:19
Originally Posted by abharsair View Post
That's just an assumption, and without any proof that statement is plain worthless. So yeah, if Snowden leaks at some point that Germany taped Obama's phone, secretly copied Michelle's cookbook, or put a remote control chip into Ted Cruz' brain, then you'll have a point. Until then you (and all the other "oh well, everyone does it" NSA apologists) just don't.
Before you get carried away with your righteous indignation, I want you to think about something. Do Germany and France have intelligence divisions similar to the CIA? Sure they do. What do you think those guys do all day? I'll give you a hint- it ain't taking naps and making smores.

Just so you don't plead ignorance, I'll do your work for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesnachrichtendienst
The BND acts as an early warning system to alert the German government to threats to German interests from abroad. It depends heavily on wiretapping and electronic surveillance of international communications.
Admittedly, it's a little harder to find the French systems since putting "France + intelligence" into a search engine just returns a big "You must be joking" sign.

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October 25th, 2013, 16:00
You guys have been caught with your hand in a cookie jar plain and simple. This metaphor is even more appropriate because of a truly adolescent argument of "we did it because everybody else does it".
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October 25th, 2013, 16:22
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Before you get carried away with your righteous indignation, I want you to think about something. Do Germany and France have intelligence divisions similar to the CIA? Sure they do. What do you think those guys do all day? I'll give you a hint- it ain't taking naps and making smores.
You're repeating yourself and it doesn't make your argument any more valid.

Again, where is the proof that the secret services of Germany or France have spied on the upper tiers of the US government or systematically recorded phone calls or email traffic of millions of US citizens within the US? As long as you can't deliver that proof, the point you are trying to make is moot.
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October 25th, 2013, 16:36
Originally Posted by abharsair View Post
You're repeating yourself and it doesn't make your argument any more valid.

Again, where is the proof that the secret services of Germany or France have spied on the upper tiers of the US government or systematically recorded phone calls or email traffic of millions of US citizens within the US? As long as you can't deliver that proof, the point you are trying to make is moot.
Willful ignorance is just so cute. More power to ya, I suppose. You'll just have to forgive me if I don't even try to act contrite to soothe your ruffled feathers.

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October 25th, 2013, 16:42
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Willful ignorance is just so cute. More power to ya, I suppose. You'll just have to forgive me if I don't even try to act contrite to soothe your ruffled feathers.
Be my guest. Doesn't change the fact that all you can do is to repeat your "…but everyone does it! boo-hoo" claim. Let me know when you have something else to discuss.
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October 25th, 2013, 16:54
Originally Posted by abharsair View Post
Be my guest. Doesn't change the fact that all you can do is to repeat your "…but everyone does it! boo-hoo" claim. Let me know when you have something else to discuss.
See, y'all are missing the point. "Everybody doing it" isn't a justification. We do it because we can and under Hopey Peace Prize it's been decided that it helps the nation to do so (feel free to disagree, many Americans do). That's the beginning and end of the justification. You don't even figure into the discussion at that point. So sorry.

"Everybody doing it" just proves that your indignation is completely empty. I'll take hypocrisy for 200 Euros, Alex.

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October 25th, 2013, 17:06
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
See, y'all are missing the point. "Everybody doing it" isn't a justification. We do it because we can and under Hopey Peace Prize it's been decided that it helps the nation to do so (feel free to disagree, many Americans do). That's the beginning and end of the justification. You don't even figure into the discussion at that point. So sorry.

"Everybody doing it" just proves that your indignation is completely empty. I'll take hypocrisy for 200 Euros, Alex.
No one claimed that what you guys did was illegal under your own laws, and clearly Barry and his minions consider that spying on allied nations is useful. This discussion is more about whether the US government and its agencies suck for doing so, and whether the unproven and assumptive claim that "everybody does it" is some kind of excuse or not.

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October 25th, 2013, 17:12
And let me repeat an argument from Slate's article that I have linked earlier:
"…we’re fast reaching a point where the diplomatic fallout of the revelation of these programs exceeds any benefit we may have gained from them."
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October 25th, 2013, 23:27
It's just the press getting their panties in a bunch. It'll pass. I'm sure Germany and France hates us spying through their windows from space too…
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October 31st, 2013, 18:32
More smoke and daggers from Obama:

US says German exports harming eurozone economy

Getting financial advise from the Obama administration - a good laugh

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October 31st, 2013, 18:47
A bad case of sour grapes?
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October 31st, 2013, 19:00
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
I bet they were spying to find out why ppl love beer more than guns outside of US.
Now that's some straight up BULLSHIT.



I EQUALLY love my beer and guns.

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October 31st, 2013, 19:04
And I love guns more than beer. I just don't need to own them.
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October 31st, 2013, 19:13
Fairly simple, really. The Euros need some way to bemoan their enforced victim-hood. You can't sing a song about a tear in your 9mm (reference for those of you lucky enough not to be subjected to country music). Anyone with half a brain will tell you a tear in your 9mm will just lead to rust.

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October 31st, 2013, 19:28
"enforced victim-hood"? You cognitively dissonance again dte?
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