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Default Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

November 22nd, 2013, 13:00
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
You have no idea if anyone has been able to reliably detect a deity. Lots of people claim to have done that, AFAIK. That YOU are unable to detect it or "feel" it - doesn't mean it's necessarily impossible. You might simply be unable to comprehend or grasp such matters.
Yes I do know, because if someone had *reliably* detected a deity or fairy, there would be a procedure that other scientists could follow to replicate that experiment. And there is no such procedure. Replication is fundamental and the only way we have of checking that people aren't fooling themselves.

And I didn't say that that fairies are impossible, just that they haven't been reliably detected and that the concept of fairies conflicts with many things that *have* been reliably detected.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
If you think relying on something that could very easily be utterly incomplete and flawed is "better" than having faith, that's on you. I'd call that blind faith.
It's certainly logically possible that our senses are so unreliable that everything is meaningless, but that's just one possibility and not a very likely one, since it's a violation of Occam's razor and carries more theoretical baggage than the simple concept that our sense impressions actually do correspond quite closely with things outside of ourselves.

In any case if the world was really like that you and the theists would be just as stuffed as everyone else (assuming anyone else exists, of course).
If you want certainty, well there isn't any, so we have to work on the balance of what is reasonable, using the tools that we do have at our disposal.
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November 22nd, 2013, 13:12
Originally Posted by Roq View Post
Yes I do know, because if someone had *reliably* detected a deity or fairy, there would be a procedure that other scientists could follow to replicate that experiment. And there is no such procedure. Replication is fundamental and the only way we have of checking that people aren't fooling themselves.
Are you kidding me? You're saying you know for a fact there'd be a procedure that scientists could replicate? That's like saying you know for a fact that scientists can always establish whether something is real or not.

I wasn't certain before, but now I'm completely certain you don't understand my point at all.

And I didn't say that that fairies are impossible, just that they haven't been reliably detected and that the concept of fairies conflicts with many things that *have* been reliably detected.
Reliably detected according to you and those who think like you - which you apparently deem sufficent to entirely dismiss that they might be detectable to others or through some means as of yet not available to you.

It's certainly logically possible that our senses are so unreliable that everything is meaningless, but that's just one possibility and not a very likely one, since it's a violation of Occam's razor and carries more theoretical baggage than the simple concept that our sense impressions actually do correspond quite closely with things outside of ourselves.
You have nothing to base its reliability on. Nothing.

You can't quantify in any way whatsoever how "likely" it is that we're flawed in that way.

It's just a possibility, though, I agree. One that shouldn't be dismissed by anyone pursuing truth or certainty.

I know you're a fan of Occam's Razor - but clinging to the theory with the fewest assumptions means next to nothing when you still rely on assumptions. That's great for you, maybe, but not for me. To me, everything is an assumption - even those things that you consider facts.

In any case if the world was really like that you and the theists would be just as stuffed as everyone else (assuming anyone else exists, of course).
If you want certainty, well there isn't any, so we have to work on the balance of what is reasonable, using the tools that we do have at our disposal.
I'm not interested in dismissing anyone or calling some more stupid than others.

I want certainty if it's there - but I don't want it if it's not there. You want certainty whether it's there or not, as do all scientists who have faith in their approach.

What you consider reasonable is your choice, but it's nothing but blind faith to me.
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November 22nd, 2013, 13:19
Anyway, Roq, it's been interesting.

You're obviously an intelligent person and that makes a debate engaging.

But I don't think we're getting anywhere, and I feel I'm doing little but repeating myself over and over. It's just a fundamental difference of opinion and approach to life.

That's cool with me, but I'm done now.

Have fun
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November 22nd, 2013, 15:11
DA you're weird. That's a certainty
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November 22nd, 2013, 15:32
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Are you kidding me? You're saying you know for a fact there'd be a procedure that scientists could replicate? That's like saying you know for a fact that scientists can always establish whether something is real or not.
You misunderstand. Modern science is a body of theories that depend on observations that can be *replicated* right now. The theory of evolution, big bang, relativity etc. are scientific theories because you can go out and check the observations on which they are based at any time (provided you can afford the equipment). Astrology, fairies, deities and spaghetti monsters are not science, because they make no predictions as to observable data that can be checked. That doesn't mean we can rule out any of these things, out of hand, but it is very significant that at least in the case of the first three, people have assiduosly searched for replicable evidence and have not found any.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I want certainty if it's there - but I don't want it if it's not there. You want certainty whether it's there or not, as do all scientists who have faith in their approach.
Nonsense, I have repeatedly said that certainty is not possible for anything (except perhaps logical derivations in mathematics and that's arguable). In the absence of certainty, theories compete with each other on the basis of the balance of evidence. Theories such as Evolution by Natural Selection have a huge range of supporting evidence, that anyone with some basic understanding of biology can check, if they are so minded.

In practice everyone, including even Christians and no doubt yourself too, adopts an empirical naturalistic approach when they go about their daily lives and aren't sitting in their armchairs dreaming up nonsense about fantastical deities… If you hear something tapping at the window, you might hypothesise that it's a branch waving in the wind or perhaps a cat; you are unlikely to seriously consider the hypothesis that out there is a mystical Knight in shining armour, spirited through hyperspace, and tapping the window with his lance … are you?
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November 22nd, 2013, 15:40
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
What has been verified? You cant recreate the big bang nor can you recreate evolution in highly complex organisms(over 1000 amino acids) let alone human evolution so how can you say either have been verified?
I've pretty much answered these questions in my reply to Dart. Sounds like you need to get a better understanding of what constitutes valid scientific evidence and why, though. I can see that any discussion with you along these lines is likely to be quite painful.
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November 22nd, 2013, 18:48
Damien, if you really want to understand how the process of doing science works, the most basic and fundamental description, daresay, is the scientific method. Read up on that, and that will answer your question. If not, ask away. But you really need to understand the scientific method first before going into this much further.
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November 22nd, 2013, 23:17
I'm waiting for someone to replicate the big bang; I'd like to see it!! (And I don't mean a computer simulation.)

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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November 22nd, 2013, 23:41
The Big Bang isn't an experiment done by humans. It's a theory or hypothesis.

Again. There is a clear lack of understanding of the scientific method being demonstrated in this thread. We have lots of measurements to confirm this. And lots of mis-experiments showing so.
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November 22nd, 2013, 23:45
I have read up on the scientific method. Answer away.

BTW i dont disagree that there is microevolution.
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November 22nd, 2013, 23:55
Answer what?
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November 23rd, 2013, 00:01
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
The Big Bang isn't an experiment done by humans. It's a theory or hypothesis.

Again. There is a clear lack of understanding of the scientific method being demonstrated in this thread. We have lots of measurements to confirm this. And lots of mis-experiments showing so.
Is Science, theory or fact? If it can't be replicated, how is it science?

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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November 23rd, 2013, 00:20
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
Is Science, theory or fact? If it can't be replicated, how is it science?
You don't have to artificially synthesize a tree in the lab to demonstrate that trees grow, you just need to go and look in the garden on two different occasions, similarly with big bang, except that you look in the sky instead of your garden… Are you guys for real?
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November 23rd, 2013, 00:22
Corwin, science is a process not a statement. You don't replicate science. You repeat experiments. Get some basic understanding of the scientific method…
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November 23rd, 2013, 00:36
I look at the sky and see God's creation, I don't see a big bang or even a small one. You still haven't answered my simple question about fact or theory.

If God said it, then that settles it!!

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November 23rd, 2013, 01:00
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
I look at the sky and see God's creation, I don't see a big bang or even a small one. You still haven't answered my simple question about fact or theory.
Forgot to mention that you need to use a telescope (a big one)… Do I detect the "evolution is only a theory" argument coming along? I think Thrasher preempted that one a bit earlier in the thread.
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November 23rd, 2013, 01:54
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
I look at the sky and see God's creation, I don't see a big bang or even a small one. You still haven't answered my simple question about fact or theory.
I'm going to assume you're luring us into a trap here and know the answer already!

So lets get this ball rolling!

Science is both theory and fact!

I'll elaborate?
Lets say you wanted a nice, hot cup of tea! Is it not fact that water boils at 100 degrees? I could use a thermometer to test this theory!

So lets say I wanted to prove there was a God to the non-believers… I could show them some old Hebrew scriptures they can't read containing ridiculous stories about an angry tyrant who went about lighting things on fire, destroying cities, requesting people cut babies foreskins off? About Giants 3000 cubits tall, the Watchers who came down and took any females they like as wife and had "Nephilim" babies, how women are ritually unclean when they menstruate until they kill 2 doves and sprinkle their blood on an altar, or the popular one about how homosexuals are abominations and man shall not lay with animals, how its ok if you beat your slave as long as he dies after a day and not right away…

But, hang on, whats this in the sky?! It's JESUS! Come to die for our sins. So now we can ignore the Old Testament and the "serious illness" the pope speaks of contained therein, because Jesus died for our sins! Yes, women are dirty for menstruating, but Jesus died for that sin - so don't kill any doves! Jesus is here!

All you need do now is BELIEVE in Jesus and you will be saved! You can be gay, know its a sin, believe Jesus died for your sins and BOOM. Heaven! Heck, I think those 10 commandments were Old Test too. Though shalt not kill? Would that be a sin? Didn't Jesus die for my sins? Then I can kill! I'll repent! I believe in Jesus and he died for my sins. I can easily get away with a few murders! Thank you, Jesus!

So, while that might be enough evidence to convince empty headed children who'll believe whatever you tell them, It's not proof. In fact, It's all quite silly!

However, as a religious person you didn't need nor want proof because proof denies faith? Faith is what its all about?

Am I a horrible person for saying these things that they might ruin your faith? Am I saying this stuff because I feel like some kinda winner in an otherwise hollow existence? Some kinda ego inflating rant? Heck, I don't know why I do the things I do. I don't know why I'm here or what life's all about. But I do know the answers I want so badly are not in any religious texts! I've looked.

The only thing I HAVE found in these texts, and, no, I have, of course, not read all of them, or any of the original versions, is evidence of extra terrestrial interference on our planet. Hindu gods fighting in the sky, flying carpets, the Sons of God/watchers/nephilim, Ezekiels wheel…

Can you imagine a being with enough "power" that he could create a UNIVERSE and all the systems therein would actually request for Ezekiel to cook his food on a fire of dry sheep dung as punishment for what other people did? Does that really sound like something an infinitely intelligent being would request, or does that sound like some kind of sick joke. Maybe a teenage alien messing with some monkeys would request these kinda shenanigans?

Look at the stories in other ways. Noahs Ark was a DNA bank? The metaphorical "garden of eden" where two aliens argue over how much intelligence their bio-engineered slaves needed?

Anyway, I've said too much already. Time to return to the mothership! Beam me up, Jesus!
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November 23rd, 2013, 02:04
Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
I look at the sky and see God's creation, I don't see a big bang or even a small one. You still haven't answered my simple question about fact or theory.
I did, but you didn't apparently understand. You need at least a middle school level understanding of science to have this conversation. In science, something has to be absolutely certain before it's considered a "fact".
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November 23rd, 2013, 02:18
Ever play Diablo? Maybe some of these names sound familiar?

And these are the names of their leaders:
Semyaza, who was their leader, Urakiba, Ramiel,
Kokabiel, Tamiel, Ramiel, Daniel, Ezeqiel,
Baraqiel, Asael, Armaros, Batriel, Ananel, Zaqiel,
Samsiel, Satael, Turiel, Yomiel, Araziel.

6.8These are the leaders of the two hundred
Angels and of all the others with them.

7.1And they took wives for themselves and
everyone chose for himself one each. And they
began to go into them and were promiscuous
with them. And they taught them charms and
spells, and they showed them the cutting of roots
and trees.

7.2And they became pregnant and bore large
giants. And their height was three thousand
cubits.

7.3These devoured all the toil of men; until men
were unable to sustain them.

7.4And the giants turned against them in order
to devour men.

7.5And they began to sin against birds, and
against animals, and against reptiles, and against
fish, and they devoured one another's flesh, and
drank the blood from it.

7.6Then the Earth complained about the lawless
ones.

8.1And Azazel taught men to make swords, and
daggers, and shields, and breastplates. And he
showed them the things after these, and the art of
making them; bracelets, and ornaments, and the
art of making up the eyes, and of beautifying the
eyelids, and the most precious stones, and all
kinds of coloured dyes. And the world was
changed.

8.2And there was great impiety, and much
fornication, and they went astray, and all their
ways became corrupt.

8.3Amezarak taught all those who cast spells
and cut roots, Armaros the release of spells, and
Baraqiel astrologers, and Kokabiel portents, and
Tamiel taught astrology, and Asradel taught the
path of the Moon.

8.4And at the destruction of men they cried out;
and their voices reached Heaven.

9.1And then Michael, Gabriel, Suriel and Uriel,
looked down from Heaven and saw the mass of
blood that was being shed on the earth and all
the iniquity that was being done on the earth.

9.2And they said to one another: "Let the
devastated Earth cry out with the sound of their
cries, up to the Gate of Heaven.

9.3And now to you, Oh Holy Ones of Heaven,
the souls of men complain, saying: "Bring our
complaint before the Most High."

9.4And they said to their Lord, the King: "Lord
of Lords, God of Gods, King of Kings! Your
glorious throne endures for all the generations of
the world, and blessed and praised!

9.5You have made everything, and power over
everything is yours. And everything is
uncovered, and open, in front of you, and you see
everything, and there is nothing that can be
hidden from you.

9.6See then what Azazel has done; how he has
taught all iniquity on the earth and revealed the
eternal secrets that are made in Heaven.

9.7And Semyaza has made known spells, he to
whom you gave authority to rule over those who
are with him.

9.8And they went into the daughters of men
together, lay with those women, became unclean,
and revealed to them these sins.

9.9And the women bore giants, and thereby the
whole Earth has been filled with blood and
iniquity.

9.10And now behold the souls which have died
cry out and complain unto the Gate of Heaven,
and their lament has ascended, and they cannot
go out in the face of the iniquity which is being
committed on the earth.

9.11And you know everything, before it
happens, and you know this, and what concerns
each of them. But you say nothing to us. What
ought we to do with them, about this?"



10.1And then the Most High, the Great and Holy
One, spoke and sent Arsyalalyur to the son of
Lamech, and said to him:

10.2"Say to him in my name; hide yourself! And
reveal to him the end, which is coming, because
the whole earth will be destroyed. A deluge is
about to come on all the earth; and all that is in it
will be destroyed.

10.3And now teach him so that he may escape
and his offspring may survive for the whole
Earth."

10.4And further the Lord said to Raphael: "Bind
Azazel by his hands and his feet and throw him
into the darkness. And split open the desert,
which is in Dudael, and throw him there.

10.5And throw on him jagged and sharp stones
and cover him with darkness. And let him stay
there forever. And cover his face so that he may
not see the light.

10.6And so that, on the Great Day of Judgment,
he may be hurled into the fire.


And so on, and so on…

Let me add a bit!
And so it came to be that God spake unto thee, "Thou shalt pick of five classes; the Barbarian, the Amazon, the Necromancer, the Paladin and the Sorcereress…"
Last edited by SirJames; November 23rd, 2013 at 02:43.
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November 23rd, 2013, 02:48
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Answer what?
How both (TBBT and ToE) have been "verified" aka proven to be true as Roq mentioned.
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