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December 9th, 2013, 09:59
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
A story driven game can only be played once before you know the story, but this isn't the way with roguelikes.
Actually its twice with the Witcher 2: there is a whole mutually exclusive chunk of the game based on your choices (I really need to set my ass down and replay on the Roche path on the very improved EE one of these days. probably on the new Year…)

This really is not your type of game you know… just saying
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December 9th, 2013, 09:59
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
DA we've established numerous times your 20 minutes played in Dark Souls equates to exactly squat, so please refrain from embarrassing yourself further with your callow opinion that repeatedly reinforces this fact. Its basically not Diablo in any respect.
You mean you've established that we view DS and Demon's Souls differently, sure. That doesn't make your opinion objectively true.

Agreed. They need more loot to make better combat! I'm not talking randomised Diablo items scattered meaninglessly around, not tiers of the same sword with a little extra damage. The whole combat:items system has to be changed to accommodate loot as I mean it. Each weapon should be like a whole new character class, not just a new 3D model doing the same swings with more or less damage.
Again, that's not the focus of Witcher games. I understand that you want focus to move away from what Witcher is about and more towards what DS is about. I don't agree.

If resources and time were infinite - then I'd be fine with weapons as a class, but they're not. Dark Souls is almost 100% combat (I really don't care if you don't agree - but that's what my experience with both of those games have been like). Sure you stop for a bit here and there and listen to vague exposition - but the game is not story oriented at all. It's combat, combat and more combat. It's about tailoring your character to overcome combat scenarios.

The atmosphere is nice if you're into bleak and oppressive stuff - but it's not story oriented no matter how much you dream it is.

I never got that far in the Witcher games before I lost interest, so all I can really say is I was bored and therefore more anything, including loot, and less time listening to NPCs, I personally would have found more engaging. I mean, what was he? Some kinda werewolf hunter? Who cares! What is this, Twilight?! It's not Geralt playing; its ME. I'll carve my own story through the world with my imagination and let him enjoy his illusion of choice by picking either grey option and either grey weapon… Or silver weapon.
It's fine that you don't care about the lore of the character. But why would you think your opinion of it is valid as a way to change the entire premise of the game?

Witcher3 graphics are looking awesome so I genuinely do hope I like it, but, Assassins Creed games always look fantastic in the videos and all open world and sandbox but then when I play them I get bored so quickly. I'd rather play some Heroes of Newerth or Natural Selection 2 than slog through boring combat to listen to crap I don't care about. My favourite RPGs are roguelikes like nethack and crawl. A story driven game can only be played once before you know the story, but this isn't the way with roguelikes.
From what you've told us so far, I don't think you'll like it all that much.

Witcher3 is also obviously trying to be more like Skyrim by being open world(and selling way more copies!), but Skyrim combat sucked. The stealth and destruction magic were fun for a bit, but the melee wasn't half as good as Dark Souls.
Stealth in Skyrim is far superior to anything in Dark Souls if you enjoy that kind of combat. It just happens to be my preference.

But Skyrim is mostly about providing a freeform open world game with nearly endless content.

Witcher 3 looks to be aiming for a middle-ground, like a Gothic with better production values.
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December 9th, 2013, 10:01
Originally Posted by JonNik View Post
I can't agree with that at all. If that was so you would like the game and me not so much (I don't like diablo type Action RPGs , at all). But we have discussed that to death already

More importantly:
No, I wouldn't like the game - because I moved beyond Diablo 1 a long time ago. I also prefer distinct classes over stat-driven systems.

It takes quite a lot to entertain me these days.

An engaging story and meaningful exploration are pretty much required for me, almost no matter what game I'm playing.

Demon's Souls didn't provide that - and my hours with Dark Souls didn't provide that.

I'm prepared to be wrong about it - but I'm not buying that Dark Souls is all that different.

It's less linear and more open world, sure, but entirely different from Demon's Souls? Bullshit


Yes but where are they going with it? They changed the formula quite a bit going from #1 to #2 and put a few people off. And now they intend to take bethesda on in their game while trying to uphold the values of what makes their games special (Story, writing, meaningful CnC)… That is quite an undertaking and its gotten me a bit worried…

In the end gameplay does matter too, this being a game…
No, I don't think they're trying to do Skyrim. It looks to me like they're trying to do Gothic 3 right.

That's just me, and maybe I'm wrong.

To clarify:

Skyrim is like an RPG simulation. More like giving you a huge playground with a lot of content.

Gothic is more about telling a specific story in a relatively linear fasion - and Gothic 3 gave you a huge open world as a backdrop, but the huge open world was never the emphasis of Gothic - and I don't think Witcher 3 is as much an RPG simulator as it's just a big ass RPG.
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December 9th, 2013, 10:08
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
I never got that far in the Witcher games before I lost interest…
Funny how strong your opinion is then about something that you admit you haven't played far into - and also a little ironic that you just criticized someone else for the same thing.
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December 9th, 2013, 10:10
Dart,
We can discuss Dark souls again if you intend to play it. But if story and exposition is necessary for you then I would definitely not waste your time on it.

I have said it myself: Atmosphere, Exploration and engaging combat and trial and error gameplay is all there is…

I really can't see how that correlates with a linear hack and slasher with clickety click combat and generic randonly generated levels and meaningless tinily incremental loot. You have completely lost me there… Excuse me If I have lost interest on this discussion a bit also

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
No, I don't think they're trying to do Skyrim. It looks to me like they're trying to do Gothic 3 right.

That's just me, and maybe I'm wrong.
That sounds like a dream come true. Keeping my fingers crossed that you are right and they also succeed. I also wish their PR was a bit less focused on cool graphix on late… It would put my mind a bit at ease…
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December 9th, 2013, 10:18
There is no point in comparing, dark souls and TW. Dark souls has the best combat in any action-RPG ever, and focuses on gameplay.

TW series was never about gameplay which always more or less sucked. However story and C&C was great.

So these games are almost opposite of each other.

I love both of them, but to me still gameplay and exploration are more important than story & CC so I consider dark souls a superior game.
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December 9th, 2013, 10:20
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Funny how strong your opinion is then about something that you admit you haven't played far into - and also a little ironic that you just criticized someone else for the same thing.
Yeah, well I'm not saying "Witcher is basically Diablo" or a step further in not having a clue with something like "its basically candy crush saga but played with breadrolls", I said I mastered the combat system and got bored! I liked it for a while and even recommended it, but, to get back to the first post I replied to, It didn't draw me in enough to play to the end. Combat is the gameplay and clicking at the right moment wasn't that great. Then you could play harder and it made it harder to see when to click alongside having to do it more times! Not the right type of harder.
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December 9th, 2013, 10:24
Originally Posted by JonNik View Post
I really can't see how that correlates with a linear hack and slasher with clickety click combat and generic randonly generated levels and meaningless tinily incremental loot. You have completely lost me there… Excuse me If I have lost interest on this discussion a bit also
I'm not saying it's identical to Diablo - but that the basic premise is very similar. Diablo is set in a very oppressive gothic environment. Diablo is combat and loot driven. Diablo has tough bosses at specific intervals that require specific strategies to overcome. Diablo has a lot of NPCs standing around spouting exposition that's not really telling a linear story - but more about establishing the atmosphere and providing a backdrop to what you're doing.

The primary difference is about perspective and player-driven combat versus mostly character-driven combat. Obviously, the player-driven combat thing is a very big deal if you enjoy player-driven combat. Also, the perspective thing is a HUGE deal when it comes to immersion and atmosphere. Still doesn't change that the basic premise is very, very similar.

But that's just my opinion.

I hope you don't think I'm interested in a discussion just because I disagree that Witcher 3 should be more like Dark Souls.

I simply don't agree.

I tend to dislike any discussion because most people can't handle opposing opinions without getting personal - but I'm not the sort of person who remains silent when my opinion is challenged. For whatever reason, my opinions tend to be challenged constantly.

I suppose I should just keep them to myself? Would be easier, I agree

In my obviously strange world, speaking my mind doesn't mean enjoying conflict. Because I really, really don't.

Oh, there's the whole "sugarcoat your opinion" so people don't get offended? No, I consider that a bad approach. Sugarcoating almost invariably means watering down a message that I want to be very clear, and I think being offended by the opinion of other people is an irrational and weak position that should never be supported.
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December 9th, 2013, 10:33
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
Yeah, well I'm not saying "Witcher is basically Diablo" or a step further in not having a clue with something like "its basically candy crush saga but played with breadrolls", I said I mastered the combat system and got bored! I liked it for a while and even recommended it, but, to get back to the first post I replied to, It didn't draw me in enough to play to the end. Combat is the gameplay and clicking at the right moment wasn't that great. Then you could play harder and it made it harder to see when to click alongside having to do it more times! Not the right type of harder.
Fair enough. You obviously don't value an exceptional story as much as some people. You also seem to be focused almost entirely on just the combat while ignoring other aspects that were among the best in modern crpgs. Maybe someday you'll give it another try and look past the combat.
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December 9th, 2013, 10:33
Dart,
I am interested in reading your opinions.
But the fact that you dislike discussion shocks and surprises me !

The reason this discussion is starting to get boring to me too though is because:
a) I agree with GothicGothicness: I am not interested in either comparing or homogenizing The Witcher with Dark souls and I love both
b) You are trying to convince me that all action RPGs that don't sport a strong story are practically the same regardless of design (the chess like specific design of DS != to the random thoughtless mess that is Diablo) just because they might share elements common to most action RPGs or a couple more too.

Could Diablo be a strong inspiration for Demon souls that is the predecessor of Dark souls?
Quite likely (not having played it). Does that make Dark souls practically Diablo in 3D. That is an enormous stretch for me but to each his own as you like to say…
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December 9th, 2013, 10:41
Originally Posted by JonNik View Post
Dart,
I am interested in reading your opinions.
But the fact that you dislike discussion shocks and surprises me !
I TEND to dislike discussion because the end result is so often conflict. Now, I'm not saying I'm not a big reason it ends in conflict, I'm just saying I fully believe in my approach and I don't want to change it for "peaceful" communication for the reasons given.

You, specifically, seem to be quite capable of encountering opposing opinions without getting personal about it - and as such, I enjoy discussing things with you. At least so far.

The reason this discussion is starting to get boring to me too though is because:
a) I agree with GothicGothicness: I am not interested in either comparing or homogenizing The Witcher with Dark souls and I love both
I agree that the two are very different. I wouldn't say I'm not interested in discussing their similarities - but it would have to be with participants that are not excessively aggressive. SirJames is a very aggressive poster - and since I don't back down with such people, it can only result in dreary conflict or nothing at all.

Ego is a very big factor

b) You are trying to convince me that all action RPGs that don't sport a strong story are practically the same regardless of design (the chess like specific design of DS != to the random thoughtless mess that is Diablo) just because they might share elements common to most action RPGs or a couple more too.
I don't think I'm trying to do that, no.

I'm not sure why you'd think so.

My suggestion is to take your emotional attachment to Dark Souls and set it aside. Then read exactly what I mean by them sharing the same premise - and realise that I'm not saying the two games are the same, or that Diablo should give you an identical experience.

Could Diablo be a strong inspiration for Demon souls that is the predecessor of Dark souls?
Quite likely (not having played it). Does that make Dark souls practically Diablo in 3D. That is an enormous stretch for me but to each his own as you like to say…
I'm almost certain it is a primary source of inspiration, though I can't be entirely sure without talking to the original designer.
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December 9th, 2013, 10:45
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
You mean you've established that we view DS and Demon's Souls differently, sure. That doesn't make your opinion objectively true.
What? No, we've established that you've played enough of either game to think its basically Diablo: An Isometric, randomly generated level design, left-click spamfest with randomly generated item prefix/suffix system and very limited inventory space. Dark Souls has none of these features! They're as far separated in systems/design as any two RPGs can be.


Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Again, that's not the focus of Witcher games. I understand that you want focus to move away from what Witcher is about and more towards what DS is about. I don't agree.

If resources and time were infinite - then I'd be fine with weapons as a class, but they're not. Dark Souls is almost 100% combat (I really don't care if you don't agree - but that's what my experience with both of those games have been like). Sure you stop for a bit here and there and listen to vague exposition - but the game is not story oriented at all. It's combat, combat and more combat. It's about tailoring your character to overcome combat scenarios.

The atmosphere is nice if you're into bleak and oppressive stuff - but it's not story oriented no matter how much you dream it is.
So, if resources and time were infinite you'd agree with me that they should have a really good combat/weapon systems like Dark Souls. What if you took the 100% combat, aka 100% gameplay, systems from Dark Souls and added a huge open world like Skyrim? I couldn't care less about the Lore of the Witchers IP. I just want a sweet RPG. Generic fantasy is fine. I feel Darker settings lend themselves to better atmosphere, because the medieval days were very dark! You'd take your kids down to watch the outlaw be hung, drawn and quartered and they'd be bored! These days even adults are sheltered from that kind of thing. Nanny/police states of labour slaves clicking away on facebook who can't stand up for themselves as their rights are stripped away one by one because of faceless "Terrorist" bullshit. But I digress…. I think it wouldn't take infinite time/money to make a combat system as deep as DS.


Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Witcher 3 looks to be aiming for a middle-ground, like a Gothic with better production values.
Well, that sounds pretty good, but Dark Souls combat still trumps any combat of any RPG. Even Mount and Blade, War of Roses, where you do a left, right, up swing and have to block accordingly isn't as good because it just over complicates things and draws your attention away from the scene as a whole and on to nuances of the monsters stance. DS touches on this focus but just enough that you can still view the whole scene and when your weapon can impact the walls, which isn't a feature of MnB, this is important.
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December 9th, 2013, 10:47
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
My suggestion is to take your emotional attachment to Dark Souls and set it aside. Then read exactly what I mean by them sharing the same premise - and realise that I'm not saying the two games are the same, or that Diablo should give you an identical experience.
I was referring to that quote that started our discussion:

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Dark Souls is completely different. It's basically Diablo with fancy 3P visuals and a player-driven combat system.
And what I meant is that what you said about Diablo could easily be attributed to Gothic 1 i.e. is Gothic 1 Diablo in 3D ?
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December 9th, 2013, 10:53
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
What? No, we've established that you've played enough of either game to think its basically Diablo: An Isometric, randomly generated level design, left-click spamfest with randomly generated item prefix/suffix system and very limited inventory space. Dark Souls has none of these features! They're as far separated in systems/design as any two RPGs can be.
No, I specifically mentioned the primary differences. You don't seem to know Diablo very well, though. The best (and most interesting) loot in the original Diablo were unique items and items with preset stats - like King's Sword of Haste - which varied very little in overall performance.

I did forget that levels are randomly generated in Diablo, that's true. Since I'm not that much into architecture - and much more into finding and interacting with stuff, I don't think the exploration varies THAT much in Dark Souls from random levels. But if you're into architecture and nice (often) empty vistas - I understand why'd disagree.

So, if resources and time were infinite you'd agree with me that they should have a really good combat/weapon systems like Dark Souls. What if you took the 100% combat, aka 100% gameplay, systems from Dark Souls and added a huge open world like Skyrim? I couldn't care less about the Lore of the Witchers IP. I just want a sweet RPG. Generic fantasy is fine. I feel Darker settings lend themselves to better atmosphere, because the medieval days were very dark! You'd take your kids down to watch the outlaw be hung, drawn and quartered and they'd be bored! These days even adults are sheltered from that kind of thing. Nanny/police states of labour slaves clicking away on facebook who can't stand up for themselves as their rights are stripped away one by one because of faceless "Terrorist" bullshit. But I digress….
Well, if time and resources were infinite - I would take combat to a much, much higher level than Dark Souls.

But what I'm saying is that if Witcher 3 could be Witcher and have more significant loot distinction, I'd be fine with it. It's not a big deal to me, because I don't expect Dark Souls when I play Witcher.

Personally, I get bored with dark, dark, dark and gritty, gritty, gritty. I like variety - and I love lush forests and stuff like that.

Dark Souls + Skyrim in an ideal world would be better than just Skyrim - but not that much better.

As I said, I think Skyrim has much better stealth - and it also has MUCH better archery. I also MUCH prefer the perks over dreary stats - and I know that stats matter a lot in Dark Souls.

I like new toys in my progression - not incremental increases.

Skyrim is a much, much better games for my tastes than Dark Souls could ever hope to be, but to each his own.

Well, that sounds pretty good, but Dark Souls combat still trumps any combat of any RPG. Even Mount and Blade, War of Roses, where you do a left, right, up swing and have to block accordingly isn't as good because it just over complicates things and draws your attention away from the scene as a whole and on to nuances of the monsters stance. DS touches on this focus but just enough that you can still view the whole scene and when your weapon can impact the walls, which isn't a feature of MnB, this is important.
It doesn't trump Skyrim when it comes to stealth, archery or mounted combat - now does it?

It's great for melee combat, but I think RPGs emphasize combat way too much already.

That's kinda why I tend to play stealthy characters - so I can enjoy exploration without constant conflict.

I'm not really a combat, combat, combat guy.

Probably why I got sick of Dark Souls so quickly, because I'd already played Demon's Souls until I couldn't take it anymore.
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December 9th, 2013, 10:57
And what I meant is that what you said about Diablo could easily be attributed to Gothic 1 i.e. is Gothic 1 Diablo in 3D ?
Ehm, no - Gothic is a very story-driven game with heavy emphasis on (what I consider) meaningful exploration and NPC interaction. It doesn't have bosses as the main obstacles and the color palette is much more varied and lush, despite the name of the game.

If those things don't matter to you, though, I suppose a case could be made for what you're saying.

Gothic has a "relatively" similar approach to combat, for instance.

RPGs do tend to share a lot elements - as do many genres.
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December 9th, 2013, 11:07
You know they do, quite a bit
I can like a game without also as I was saying.

Just saying that An oppressive Gothic atmosphere, an emphasis on Combat, the use of indirect methods in storytelling to create atmosphere (in addition to the strong story and exposition in the case of Gothic) and an emphasis on acquiring and identifying with meaningful equipment (the great handling or Armor on the Gothics) is insufficient basis to make broad, curt and definitive statements like that. Or you run in danger of muddling every action RPG together. In my honest opinion always.

As an interesting aside: Boss fights there is a substantially stronger emphasis on DS that is true. Probably a japanese thing That said there are a lot of bosses in G2 NOTR and some of the tougher creatures that PB litters the world with (to keep you hedged in) could also almost count as mini bosses (Trolls Shadowbeasts etc)…

Anyways thats all from me on the issue guys… I think we derailed this Witcher thread quite a bit Cheers
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December 9th, 2013, 11:09
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
SirJames is a very aggressive poster - and since I don't back down with such people, it can only result in dreary conflict or nothing at all.

Ego is a very big factor
That may be true, but I'm a fighter and a leader! I'm strong but fair, and often misunderstood. I will correct you with tactical knowledge rather than blame you or question "why?". I'm definitely a player you'd want in your group if you wanted to slay the dragon, but I have little patience in waiting while you listen to every sob story of petty townsfolk beneath me. I AM THE HERO!

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
My suggestion is to take your emotional attachment to Dark Souls and set it aside. Then read exactly what I mean by them sharing the same premise - and realise that I'm not saying the two games are the same, or that Diablo should give you an identical experience.
You said DS is basically Diablo which implies the two are basically the same. You may retract this comment, but I won't hear this and think you mean otherwise!

Maybe you should take your emotional anguish attached to dying in Dark Souls and set it aside, then play the game long enough to realise its not Diablo and does, in fact, have all the exploration and rich characters tied into the story that you enjoy in RPGs. Then you'll love it like most older gamers do. It's a game like they used to be made! You're just too used to accessible crap made to please the lowest common denominator.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I'm almost certain it is a primary source of inspiration, though I can't be entirely sure without talking to the original designer.
Well, that's laughable considering you don't know squat about Dark Souls!
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December 9th, 2013, 11:12
Originally Posted by JonNik View Post
Just saying that An oppressive Gothic atmosphere, an emphasis on Combat, the use of indirect methods in storytelling to create atmosphere (in addition to the strong story and exposition in the case of Gothic) and an emphasis on acquiring and identifying with meaningful equipment (the great handling or Armor on the Gothics) is insufficient basis to make broad, curt and definitive statements like that. Or you run in danger of muddling every action RPG together. In my honest opinion always.
I'm not making a case for Gothic sharing a premise with Dark Souls - that's you

If you think it's a random trivial comment when I lump Dark Souls and Diablo together, you're very wrong.

But I think I understand one of the main reasons we disagree. I tend to think of Dark Souls as Demon's Souls - only with a non-linear world.

When I'm saying Diablo is similar to Dark Souls, I really mean it's similar to Demon's Souls. Demon's Souls also had a hub structure and 4 distinct "areas" for instance.

I'm the sort of person who thinks that Diablo is also very, very similar to Hellgate London - for instance, even though HGL has a third person perspective and much more "player-driven" combat.

Some people consider those two games very different, and perhaps because they don't think so much in "design document/premise" terms as I do.

I'm completely OK with people thinking Demon's/Dark Souls are COMPLETELY different from Diablo -and I understand where they're coming from.

I simply don't agree with them.

As an interesting aside: Boss fights there is a substantially stronger emphasis on DS that is sure. Probably a japanese thing That said there are a lot of bosses in G2 NOTR and some of the tougher creatures that PB litters the world with to keep you hedged in could also almos count as mini bosses (Trolls Shadowbeasts etc)…
Now, that's what I'd call a bit of a stretch
Last edited by DArtagnan; December 9th, 2013 at 11:25.
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December 9th, 2013, 11:15
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
That may be true, but I'm a fighter and a leader! I'm strong but fair, and often misunderstood. I will correct you with tactical knowledge rather than blame you or question "why?". I'm definitely a player you'd want in your group if you wanted to slay the dragon, but I have little patience in waiting while you listen to every sob story of petty townsfolk beneath me. I AM THE HERO!
That's nice to know.

You said DS is basically Diablo which implies the two are basically the same. You may retract this comment, but I won't hear this and think you mean otherwise!
It's almost as if you think your perception matters to me to an extent where I'd change my mind about something. Good luck with that

I said that it's basically Diablo WITH 3P perspective and player-driven combat. It basically is.

Maybe you should take your emotional anguish attached to dying in Dark Souls and set it aside, then play the game long enough to realise its not Diablo and does, in fact, have all the exploration and rich characters tied into the story that you enjoy in RPGs. Then you'll love it like most older gamers do. It's a game like they used to be made! You're just too used to accessible crap made to please the lowest common denominator.
If I believed you weren't irrationally attached to the game and opposed to Diablo, I might just do that.

But your position on it clearly goes beyond appreciation and into worship

There's a reason I'd rather play Diablo 3 than Nethack as well

If I wanted a really challenging game, it would have to do much more than just throw enemies at me, no matter how good the combat system is.

I'm bored with endless punishing combat.

Well, that's laughable considering you don't know squat about Dark Souls!
We were talking about Demon's Souls.
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December 9th, 2013, 11:16
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Now, that's what I'd call a bit of a stretch
Nah think about it! they are unique creatures fearsome and special encounters meant to keep you from high danger areas and providing special rewards (or guarding them) and a special feeling of accomplishment when you defeat them.

But yeah, maybe a tiny bit of a stretch
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